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#96622 - 03/29/05 04:57 AM Abuse caught on tape  
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Ron Pack Offline
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Just wanted to share this very short video clip of an abusive male U2.... mad

First off... these two birds (after being together for years) have been separated because of mate aggression. Just recently, I decided to allow the two a little out of cage time *together. (for the last time)

You'll notice, the birds are preening and getting along just fine....until, I drop a pan in the kitchen causing a loud noise. That's when he nails her...

Sorry for the poor quality of the video but the point here is.... even under close supervision, this and even *worse can still happen. frown

Abusive Male

#96623 - 03/29/05 05:03 AM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Lisab624 Offline
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no sound..

But my question is
In the wild do they show this same aggression?

(i hated seeing tht)You got my attention...

#96624 - 03/29/05 05:55 AM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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I couldn't get the video but maybe that is just as well. I guess I am relieved that I only have one bird.

#96625 - 03/29/05 07:12 AM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Wow, that was very upsetting.

#96626 - 03/31/05 07:55 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Thanks, Ron Pack, for sharing that. No warning, just WHAM! . That could be your finger, your tongue, your eye, ear, or whatever part of your body you make available to your bird.

I recommend you watch this video if you are the people on here who kiss, tongue, sleep with your 'Too. You know who you are :rolleyes:

#96627 - 04/01/05 03:31 AM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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do female u2's do this to . or is it just male toos. confused
and yes your right it could happen to your body or face. gonna think twice about putting my u2 near my face. eek
Debbie


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jean(U2),Irene(cag),kookie(GW)
#96628 - 04/06/05 06:23 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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are you really sure that it is abuse. could it have been something other then an attck. it was a quick bite, you do not say if he broke any skin on the other too. was the attack longer then the one bite it shows or did i not get the complete feed of the video please give me more info. confused

#96629 - 04/06/05 06:34 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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According to the things I have read, mate aggression (biting to the point of breaking skin) is not something that occurs in the wild. In the wild, they have all kinds of space and can fly away when they feel threatened by another bird. Birds are also very in tune with the body language of other birds, and so things rarely escalate. When birds do bicker, one will usually quickly leave. You don't see parrots fighting to the death of the other.

The video was extremely disturbing. Captivity affects birds in such a horrible and fundamental way. I am glad that this is the last time these two birds will be allowed to hang out together. What a hard lesson to learn, though it is the female U2 that paid the price. What does concern me, though, is that when the male U2 was clearly acting out of fear and other motivating factors (and should not have been with the female any longer), you would call him an "abusive" bird and seem to convey that you are angry with him. It is not his fault.

#96630 - 04/06/05 06:41 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Lucky is the same way with Tuffy, love her one minute then try to kill her the next, she is never allowed out with him he broke her foot and leg the last time they where near each other it was because she climbed on his cage, I was lucky he did not cut the leg off, all she lost was movment in two of her toes and a was in a cast for about a month.IT COULD HAVE BEEN SO MUCH WORST IF HE WOULD HAVE BEEN OUT.He is so unperticable and he is that way with me to I have to watch his body lanuage at all times, my poor husbands gets nailed buy him at least once every two weeks or more.I don't think he will ever learn (my husband that is)

#96631 - 04/06/05 07:09 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Sorry Ron they are fast but my under close supervision is me right on top of my birds with a hand on them so it can go up to take the bite and yes I have been. But mine are not of the same type of birds.

#96632 - 04/06/05 07:36 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Ron:
I would like to commend you for sharing this story even though it appears that you may get a bit of negative feedback. At the very least it might make some people think twice about caging these birds together. In a closed enviroment it can be much, much worse. (I can't seem to view the tape from this computer but I will try again later.)

I have a (former breeding) pair of wild caught Goffins. They are very bonded but he is agressive with her and almost killed her 2 years ago (before we had them) She still has recovering to do. When they first came to us I would not allow the to interact. (I do let them be together while out of their cages - but they each have their own house) I have also been reluctant to let some of my other Toos have physical contact. (Most don't want it any way) However, of late, a few of my birds have been enjoying mutal preening etc. My first instinct is to intervene just in case someone gets hurt. But my heart says let them be...So much of what they experience in our living rooms is unnatural. If they can do bird things with their own kind once in a while isn't that worth the risk? I may feel differently some day, but for now I just can't take everything away from them. frown

#96633 - 04/06/05 08:08 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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I showed it to my 2 youngest kids and a cpl of there friends to show how quick a bite can happen! I want to use it in my daughters science class when I take Babe-Zee in!

#96634 - 04/07/05 04:51 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Thanks Lrex, actually I expected a lot more negative feedback... eek

Matilda...the male didn't bite the female, he pounded her once with his beak....and rather hard at that... frown

Scoutkj and Nikkis mom....you need to understand that these are two wild X-breeder birds and have never known anything in their lives except for a cage with a nestbox and each other.
They are not pet birds and they both have a great fear of people because of their past history, (which is another story) so close supervision can only be done with a watchful eye from a short distance.
If you think the video is upsetting...then you should try living with a tightly bonded pair of cockatoos that can't seem to understand WHY they can't be together anymore and constantly cry for each other... shocked

#96635 - 04/07/05 06:42 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Ron what I was trying to state is that one of my birds is a large bird the other is a medium size and I donít want to take any chance do to the deference in the sizes. Iím sure if they were more equal in size I would be more relaxed. I did not mean that you were in the wrong but this is just the way I feel I have to do it. Oh and get this itís the big bird that donít trust the small one and will move away. I am so glad both birds are ok and it brakes my heart to think of them crying to be close to each other. shocked

#96636 - 04/08/05 04:31 AM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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I saw the vid right after the link was posted. It's taken me this long to digest and comment.

If the agression doesn't strike a nerve, the expression of the innocent too getting hit just kills me.

I still have few words other than to say that the nature of the beast is still just exaclty that.

#96637 - 04/08/05 10:38 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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That's what happened with my female G2 to get her removed from the cage she shared with the M2. She beat the H E double L out of him. End the end she attacked the others and was given up to a rescue organization. A lot of the too breeder I've talked to says this is not the all uncommon. Kyu's Mommy and Daddy were kept seperate for most of the year until breeding season. I think one of them killed the other.

#96638 - 04/20/05 09:05 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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I haven't been able to open the link but from what Ron has described it doesn't sound like aggression at all! It sounds like he was doing what they would do in the wild (from what I understand) and that would be striking her to get her to move away from the danger...and unfortunately she wasn't able to...they do that don't they? If they can't "fight" the danger to their mate they will nip them to get them away. (From what I have read).

#96639 - 04/20/05 10:12 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Field biologists and most of the academically-educated parrot behaviorists have actually for the most part discarded this idea of the altruistic act of biting one's mate to get it out of danger and instead called it displaced aggression. The bird cannot reach what it is intending to strike at, so it lashes out at the closest thing. Parrots, as we know, are selfish creatures so they would rather save themselves first, even before its mate, and though they mourn the passing of a long-term partner, they are quick to pair up with another one in the wild. Similarly, the idea of biting one's own mate has no survival-oriented significance.

Have you ever seen a goose rip at grass when it feels threatened by an approaching human or dog? Similar idea.

Though relatively little actual fact is known about the habits of Indonesian cockatoos, other than what the trappers of these birds know because they base the well-being of their families off of knowledge of wild cockatoo behavior. However, from what I understand, no one has ever reported sightings or the effects of physical abuse among the members of a cockatoo pair in the wild. My personal thought is that mate abuse is a byproduct of captivity because they are living in an unnaturally limited amount of space and clipped and therefore not allowed to move in the way nature bestowed them.

Thank you so much for sharing your video, Ron. Are they not allowed to be together because he will beat her up or because they will lay eggs?

tex

#96640 - 04/20/05 10:17 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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I was out with Sysko the Scarlet macaw visiting my neighbor across the street. Out of the blue Sysko saw something he didn't like and struck out at me biting me on my shoulder. When I didn't fly away he took off. Luckily his wings are clipped. In the Toos the aggresion can be pretty bad. Lifelong mates have been known to kill one another. My G2 Niki beat the snot out of the M2 Tut before she killed the conures.

#96641 - 04/21/05 12:30 AM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Ron,

It didn't appear that there was much of an attack on the female by the male. Have they shown more aggressive behavior towards each other in the past? Biting as apposed to thumping with the beak?

#96642 - 04/21/05 01:00 AM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Good to see you Michael.

#96643 - 04/21/05 02:56 AM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Tex and Michael

Yes... the male attacked the female several months earlier injuring her left leg. He then went for her upper beak but wasn't able to get a good hold, but he did manage to leave a scuff mark on her beak and a small nick to her nare. The two were separated right then and there.

Again...the video isn't of an attack.... I feel the male was reacting to a situation that he felt was dangerous. So, I'm not sure if this was just an extreme version of a warning... or a normal warning for these types of birds... or an act of abuse on his part. To me it was abuse, but thats only because I saw this thru my eyes and not theirs...

I suppose the most confusing thing to me is how the female shows no fear of him whatsoever... confused

#96644 - 04/21/05 04:34 AM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Quote:
posted April 20, 2005 04:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Field biologists and most of the academically-educated parrot behaviorists have actually for the most part discarded this idea of the altruistic act of biting one's mate to get it out of danger and instead called it displaced aggression. The bird cannot reach what it is intending to strike at, so it lashes out at the closest thing. Parrots, as we know, are selfish creatures so they would rather save themselves first, even before its mate, and though they mourn the passing of a long-term partner, they are quick to pair up with another one in the wild. Similarly, the idea of biting one's own mate has no survival-oriented significance.

Have you ever seen a goose rip at grass when it feels threatened by an approaching human or dog? Similar idea.

Though relatively little actual fact is known about the habits of Indonesian cockatoos, other than what the trappers of these birds know because they base the well-being of their families off of knowledge of wild cockatoo behavior. However, from what I understand, no one has ever reported sightings or the effects of physical abuse among the members of a cockatoo pair in the wild. My personal thought is that mate abuse is a byproduct of captivity because they are living in an unnaturally limited amount of space and clipped and therefore not allowed to move in the way nature bestowed them.

Thank you so much for sharing your video, Ron. Are they not allowed to be together because he will beat her up or because they will lay eggs?

Thanks for answering my question.
The thing I saw strange about the video is tht they were just sitting there. Hardly no interaction and like someone said WHAM!
With my Macaw, I was holding him and the cable guy came in (bald-headed) and Wham! he got me good. No squawk warning like normal.
Also my Cockatoo who was on the back of an out door chair I was sitting in and for no reason tht I knew of he tried to tag my face.
I always believed as someone else said tht it was a protective thing. But am beginnig to wonder if it is for their own self-reasoning. As much as I would like to believe they are trying to protect me I find this untrue. I know chickens are not the same but have you ever seen them in the wild? I have seen some of the same behaviors. And they have definate space/boundaries issues. For 6 years I sat in a cage everyday and watched them interact etc.

#96645 - 04/21/05 05:30 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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I wish they could say exactly why they do things...would make life soooo much easier frown
Looks like I'm going to have to do some more reading.

#96646 - 04/21/05 05:47 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Well, anthropomorphism is a pretty hot topic. Sometimes it's better to know the what instead of the why , in my opinion.

#96647 - 04/21/05 06:20 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Scoutkj

I completely agree. I think it would be far more productive of us -- not to mention beneficial for our birds -- if we stopped treating them like humans and acting like we know what they are thinking and started listening to them as if trying to understand a foreign language without a dictionary. We can learn the definitions to each individual bird's language if we look at what happens immediately before and after the given behavior.

Not that Ron wasn't completely right to be completely befuddled by the female's behavior. Just one more way that makes the human-parrot coexistence a mystery that it has lasted this long.

tex

#96648 - 04/21/05 09:14 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Although I consider myself fairly well-read I have no idea what "anthropomorphism" is. Explanation please?

#96649 - 04/21/05 11:11 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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It basically means to project humanity into something that is not human. In this case we're talking about birds, but it could be a plant, a robot, whatever (so long as it isn't human). It means that when the bird looks at us a certain way or does something, we view it and interpret it in strictly human terms (as though they respond to us as humans and not as birds).

#96650 - 04/21/05 11:24 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Anthropomorphism... attribution of human qualities to nonhumans. People attribute human qualities to toys, products, and machines, and they design toys, products, and machines.....

FROM WEBSTERS

#96651 - 04/22/05 05:44 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Thank you for the explanation smile I know for sure I do that all the time with my birdies...I'll "talk for them" to my bf, like Cricket will try to get his attention and I"ll be like she's saying, "Daddy, scritch me, please!" Hmmm, now that I think about it, it does seem rather stupid to assume that that is what she is thinking...

#96652 - 04/22/05 07:10 PM Re: Abuse caught on tape  
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Well, I do the same thing... I just recognize when it's critical that I not do it and when I can allow myself to feel those things without consequence.
I mean, we really could talk forever about what was he thinking and when did he know it, but seriously, we can just look at behavior and consequence and get from step A to step B in training much more quickly, you know?
smile

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