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#93417 - 08/04/07 02:15 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  

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Ok...I have been giving this a lot of thought....

Jerry I mean no disrespect to you or what you said above but you got me thinking. Im sorry but I have to disagree with it.
I think that if the little guys were not so easy to get ahold of and so cheap to buy...then toss out, many UPGRADES to bird buying and keeping wouldnt be made. Most people buy the first little bird and get into it...then want a more interesting bird...then want a talking bird, then a cuddly bird. If you encourage the person that will buy regardless to get a small bird...eventually they will most definatley get a bigger one. I just dont see how encoiuraging the buying of the little birds is doing anything for cockatoos.

Like I said...Im not meaning to sound disrespectful of you or your board...I just dont get your reasoning.

Angel

#93418 - 08/04/07 02:38 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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If you encourage the person that will buy regardless to get a small bird...eventually they will most definatley get a bigger one. I just dont see how encoiuraging the buying of the little birds is doing anything for cockatoos.
You may not see it.. but I have.. thousands of times over the last almost 10 years people have decided that a large parrot wasnt for them after talking to us... and settled for a small bird instead.

There is no banning here for legitimate opinion, even if you disagree with me. However... once our views have been known to all, I wont entertain constant argument over the issue.

#93419 - 08/04/07 02:46 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  

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Thanks Jerry.

Thinking I may need to get more time under my belt before I understand this one. Im glad you answered though. I was starting to think I just got myself a kick out the door.

Angel

#93420 - 08/04/07 03:30 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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I understand everything that has been said but my point is...

I have only bought one of my birds...The first bird who was a cockatoo.Since then I have had 6 other birds dumped on me for many reasons.There is no rescue for birds in my area either.I have visited rescues as I was interested in starting one myself but they are at least 6 hours from home.In the last 2 weeks I have had to say no to 2 other birds and help these people place these birds in suitable homes because at 7 birds I am at my limit.So because there are no rescues does not mean there aren't birds needing help.Our lovely vet keeps pointing people our way.Thank God for friends that want birds. smile .

Jan


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#93421 - 08/04/07 03:42 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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I just want to point out that even though the BIRDS are cheap, the stores make plenty of money off them by selling the "starter kits" to people buying the birds. From their point of view they are a HUGE money maker, easy to breed, don't require much space, and can be easily sold with start-up kit. People are definitely more likely to rush into a purchase of a "cheap" pet than an expensive one. So, it is still about money even though the birds don't have a hefty price tag.

Also, I've often been horrified at the condition of the cages, the overcrowding, and the diets given these birds that I've seen in stores.

Having said that, I would like to say that I think the smaller birds make wonderful pets, and budgies are especially sweet. Just because they are inexpensive doesn't make them less desireable, just less expensive. JMO for what it's worth.


~ Nikki

The strongest of all warriors are these two Time and Patience. -Leo Tolstoy
#93422 - 08/04/07 04:09 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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Sorry, fellas, but believe it or not, size doesn't always matter!!! Right ladies???? wink


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#93423 - 08/04/07 04:14 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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So that is my point there is always a bird needing help and to me buying a bird no matter what is out of the question.
You don't know the hundreds of people who have come here over the years that simply didn't have a rescue within hundreds of miles of them. And at one point, many rescues made it almost impossible to rescue FROM. Many people became disillusioned to the whole affair and simply purchased a small bird because they wanted one that bad. These are the people I talk about.

And again... I would like to see all breeding stopped, but don't blame the breeders... blame the BUYERS! No buyers.. no breeders.. simple as that. And that's why we always attempt to go to the source here.. the BUYER.

#93424 - 08/04/07 04:14 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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Thanks EchosMom...my point excactly.Just because it is smaller does not mean the life is less valuable nor does it mean it is okay to be sold and sit in rescues either or starved for attention.I believe they are the easier to keep and care for but they too have a spot in this trade as well.

Jan

Edit sorry Jerry didn't see that post.

I agree with you it is the buyer and that is what brought this debate up was the fact that an advance member BOUGHT a bird...Parakeet or cockatoo I believe that was a slap in the face if you ask me.Very disappointing.Right.

Jan


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#93425 - 08/04/07 04:18 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  

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Thanks Echos Mom....now I need to clean the coffee out of my keyboard!!! ROFLMAO!!

#93426 - 08/04/07 04:19 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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Sorry, fellas, but believe it or not, size doesn't always matter!!! Right ladies????
This has little to do with size. It has to do with SHEER NUMBERS and the vulnerability of the larger parrots.

My mind will change once there's untold millions of large parrots in the wild just as there are small birds. This isn't an emotional issue. This is a "save the most vulnerable birds while we can" issue. Once that's taken care of... we can then focus on all the rest of the birds right down to the Budgies.

People will understand this logic, while they'll never understand the "we have to save them all" logic... because they know that sheer numbers alone of smaller birds wont make a dent in some of them being captive. People can do the math. They don't relate to the "PETA" mentality however of trying to save them all..... (except for a few die-hards) and so I prefer to plead to peoples logic instead of to their emotions.

Remember... I ALWAYS preface my comments with "I'd like to see all breeding stopped... but until that's possible... let's try to save the most vulnerable first" argument.

Example:

Let's say there were 500 large parrots left flying in the wild, and 500 MILLION cockatiels flying in the wild. Would you be as passionate about the argument?? Would you actually waste time on this message board while the big guys days were numbered? If so... you need a membership in a nuthouse instead of this messageboard.

By the way... my comments are directed towards everyone and not one or two people.

#93427 - 08/04/07 05:36 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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OK, I see Jerry's point (I think), we obviously have to concentrate on the most crucial issues FIRST, in order to not overwhelm people with too large an agenda. If I'm wrong please let me know. I do think that cockatoos suffer more in captivity than many other parrots due to both their intelligence and how sensitive they seem to be to human emotion and stress. So we have to pick our battles to win the war. And by the way Jerry, thank you for caring enough to do this every day, because it does make a difference.

In some ways comparing cockatoos to budgies is apples to oranges, but I love those little birds! I've been torn for years between loving to have birds as "pets", and knowing that they were never meant to be caged. As Jan said though, birds needing homes keep finding me, I have also turned a few away, because I need to be sure I can provide a good home to the ones I have. But I have helped find homes for, and worked with the ones I couldn't take. And I will never buy another bird, for any reason. But I WILL always tell people to find a rescue, or at very least a re-home when they are looking for any size bird. There are budgies and cockatiels people have gotten tired of in the paper every week here, and I don't live in a very large community.

BTW - Echo'smom, <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" /> way to break the tension a little -and very well said! <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" />


~ Nikki

The strongest of all warriors are these two Time and Patience. -Leo Tolstoy
#93428 - 08/04/07 06:14 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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we obviously have to concentrate on the most crucial issues FIRST, in order to not overwhelm people with too large an agenda. If I'm wrong please let me know. I do think that cockatoos suffer more in captivity than many other parrots due to both their intelligence and how sensitive they seem to be to human emotion and stress. So we have to pick our battles to win the war.
I couldnt (and didn't) have said it better.

#93429 - 08/04/07 07:53 AM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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BTW - Echo'smom, way to break the tension a little -and very well said!
Hey a little levitity never hurts. wink

In seriousness though, the opposing side presents a good argument. BUT I cannot/refuse to embrace the "sacrificial lamb" philosophy. I think it's wrong.

Wikipedia:
Quote:
A sacrificial lamb refers to a lamb (or metaphorical parallel) killed or discounted in some way (as in a sacrifice) in order to further some other cause.
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Example:

Let's say there were 500 large parrots left flying in the wild, and 500 MILLION cockatiels flying in the wild. Would you be as passionate about the argument??
Ask me when/if that happens. wink

Quote:
Would you actually waste time on this message board while the big guys days were numbered?
If I thought it would make a difference - YES!

(Edited to include last 2 paragraphs after thinking some more after I posted). Sorry...


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#93430 - 08/04/07 01:43 PM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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As mentioned many times before, even some of the big guys will have to be sacrificed before it's all over. I'm talking about "pity purchases" here. That's when you walk into a pet shop and see some pitiful cockatoo slowly dying of neglect and your emotions cry out to save it. If money exchanges hands, you're only making the problem worse. As long as the bird moves through the system of CASH.. it will be replaced by another pitiful parrot. You will have help to make it happen. And so yes, in this world of sacrificing for this and that... (everybody you know sacrifices SOMETHING)... you must use your head instead of your emotions to help solve the problem.

I'm willing to sacrifice my beloved birds, and I would hope that you would yours too, if it justifies the outcome.

#93431 - 08/04/07 06:00 PM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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I do agree with you Jerry in the overall theory that if we can convince those ignorant or indifferent to the plight of captive bred birds to get that budgie instead of a cockatoo, it is the lesser of two evils. And I am with you all the way on pity purchases.

But, in this particular instance the OP is neither ignorant nor indifferent and a cockatoo was not saved.

You are so right, each of us has to help make it happen.

As Jane Goodall said:
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Only if we understand can we care. Only if we care will we help. Only if we help shall they be saved.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#93432 - 08/04/07 08:15 PM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  

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I have spent the last 3 years learning where I fit in in the bird community, searching my very soul for the truth. Ive sat many hours quietly reading this baord, soaking in everyones arguments and now I believe 100 percent what the memebers of this board fight for every day!!!! I am ready to fight for the birds, I am ready to defend the birds and Im ready to give everything that I am to rescuing one parrot at a time, do my part, even if it is a small part. I finally jump in and defend what EVERYONE HERE HAS TAUGHT ME......and got shot down by the owner of mytoos. While I sorta understand where you are comming from, and I agree if we can talk someone into ADOPTING a smaller bird instead of a cockatoo I have to say that has nothing to do with what this topic started out as. Im sitting here wondering if someone is sitting in the shadows quietly reading, soul searching, trying to find there spot in the bird world and how they are feeling about this thread.
I hope I made sence here.
At this point I am going back to my quiet little corner and keeping what I believe to myself.

Angel

#93433 - 08/04/07 08:49 PM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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Angel, you fit in fine here. This site is not a cookie cutter mold. Hopefully, we all are intelligent and compassionate enough to be able to see the "sides" of this discussion. In my heart, I agree with you and, I'm sure, many more members do.

If someone became interested in and researched long distance running and found it fascinating and decided that it would be a wonderful way to a healthier lifestyle and to enjoy nature, they would not go out and run a marathon. I doubt one percent of the population could actually start like that. No, we would set bite size goals and revel in the accomplishment of meeting each one with the main goal, the marathon, always in sight. A good portion of the population will never get there but it doesn't stop the satisfaction of meeting lesser goals along the way.

We are helping birds every day by advancing education about them. We can set our own goals in our own hearts and minds and be very happy with meeting each one. No one can take your accomplishments from you. It is important to always realize the magnitude of what "we would like to accomplish" and be satisfied along the way with our own progress. It has been said many, many times on this board that "this will not happen in my lifetime" and that is the sad truth so it does no harm to the general mission to state more achievable goals along the way. A bite that must be taken on the way to eating the whole thing! smile

I know it doesn't diminish my goals at all. Stick around!

#93434 - 08/04/07 09:20 PM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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I helped to take this issue completely off topic as you can see. But I had to step-in and let people know how I personally feel about the conversation as it was progressing towards this very touchy subject. I wince each time I see Mytoos equated with trying to save the entire bird world, when the truth is that we have an uphill battle and our hands completely full just trying to save one species. If YOU can save the entire bird world, my hat's certainly off to you.

#93435 - 08/04/07 10:16 PM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  

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Ill do my best....one at a time.

#93436 - 08/04/07 11:22 PM Re: Budgies in a cockatoo cage  
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Angel please don't sit quietly in the corner.I happen to like your posts allot and it would be a shame.

IMO Jerry is being quite logical and realistic.It is the cockatoos that suffer so much in captivity...so to save the cockatoo we have to focus on the cockatoo.Once we hit that goal then try for the others.It doesn't mean they don't matter or they aren't suffering as well but to climb a ladder we take it one step at a time...we can't get to the top any other way.

Jan


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