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#22732 - 06/12/07 03:36 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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Trish and crew Offline
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I think there is a clear distinction between the two schools of thought on biting here...

Those who say they don't get bit because of 'training' seem to be more of the mindset that birds are pretty good pets- once trained. They seem to think that wildness can be tamed and untrained. I am glad that they have managed to avoid bites, but I think thier expereince paints a false picutre of what success is when harboring a WILD creature.

I am like-minded to the folks who seem to get the whole story and have come to the sad relization, that just because most of our captive birds have never known the wild, the wildness is innate in them. Success for us comes a day at a time as we try to acheive and maintain the delicate balance. Just because we can't make it work day in and day out does not invalidate the work done. In the end we will always come through for the birds because we recognize they are birds.

#22733 - 06/12/07 05:37 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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Iím going to try and not be all over the place here. I have been away and unable to respond the last few days. Lynne, I am glad you were able to respond to jimmyJamesí posts. Iíll reiterate what I said earlier that I do respect that you have found something that works for all parties involved in your situation. There are many things, such as saying NEVER so much, that make me raise my eyebrows in jimmyJamesí statements. I donít like the idea of leaving a cage out in the open in the middle of a room. Quite the contrary, caged-up in the middle of the room, your bird feels like there is nowhere for it to escape. No matter which direction it goes, confined by cage bars, you, or something else, can get have him fully in their view. A cage against a wall, with good perch and toy placement gives birds the ability to hide and a stronger sense of security. It has been addressed in previous threads just how ludicrous and unsafe it is for you and your birds to transport them out freely in your vehicle. And, as to this man who brings his birds out to the street, Iíd be willing to bet his birds have bitten more than once, but through his method of training (discipline), they no longer can/will. My guess is that he flooded them to the point where no matter how much they bit, thrashed, etc. they were unable to break free of him until they just gave up; learned helplessness.

The Risks of Response Blocking

Quote:
Response blocking is called flooding for a reason: When it doesnít work the animal sinks rather than swims. When it does work, flooding results in a rapid reduction in fearful behavior; however it is just as likely to result in overwhelming stress, anxiety, and lasting generalized aversion to the people present during the flooding episode and elements in the environment at large. Flooding can result in such intense resistance that physical harm can occur to the birds and people. Additionally, there is considerable research that shows the long term detrimental effects of repeated exposure to uncontrollable aversive events with both animals and people (Mazur, 2002), as is the case with repeated flooding. Learned helplessness is one such dire outcome. Learned helplessness is the expectation that one's behavior has little or no effect on the environment. This expectation results from repeated exposure to uncontrollable aversive events without opportunity to escape. Research has shown that animals subjected to this condition often suffer a loss of motivation so that they do not even try to affect their environment even when they can. They give up easily and show significant deficits in learning and performance. Emotional problems are frequently observed as well, for example, rats developed ulcers; cats ate less; humans suffered increased blood pressure; and monkeys became ill (Maier and Seligman, 1976).
Moving on...

Quoting Lynne :

Quote:
Reality is that these birds were not created to live in our homes, and we humans can NOT provide for them anything even CLOSE to what their true needs are. We can only do our best to make them as comfortable (happy) as possible in what is an impossible situation for them.
This is so true and I think just about everyone here believes this and is trying to make their birdsí lives the best it can possibly be, considering their unavoidable situations.

Iím not going to go back and forth about why birds bite. Some evidence as to why has already been posted, and everyone here can make up their own minds from what they read and have experienced. I have never claimed that I have not been bit, nor do I think that I will never get bit again, I most likely will. In a round about way, many of us have said the same thing, we all, except for the masochists, try to avoid getting bit, and we use those bites as learning experiences. We use those past events and the circumstances behind them to better understand what caused them and to prevent them from recurring. We arenít birds and, so, we will never be fluent in their communication, but the more aware we are to the subtleties of their body language, the more likely we will be able to minimize the surprise attacks.

I do not believe that training out the biting is training out innate, wild behavior (this has been addressed already). I think some may think Iím suggesting that we are trying to make biting a reaction our birds ďforgetĒ how to do. Not at all. That line of defense still needs to be there. It is absolutely appropriate for our birds to bite if they are being threatened, teased, etc. People get bit and they deserve it. You know the type of people I am referring to. They are the ones who go up to birds they donít know and stick their fingers in their cage, grab their feet to pick them up, etc. When they get bit, they deserve it. However, when you are trying to get your bird to step up, its first instinct should not be to bite you. This was the direction I had been intending to go in my original post. By trying to set the situation up in certain ways, you are less likely to get bit when trying to teach basic behaviors to your bird. Again, we are all trying to minimize the bites we receive.

People do need to know the power behind the beak and the dangers that are, indeed, present. As sad as it is that these birds are in an unnatural environment, training behaviors using positive reinforcement is one of the tools that I use, and believe in, that makes life more fulfilling for my toos. I started out very skeptical of the techniques, but the positive changes Iíve seen made me a believer and I believe it works for many birds. Iíve conceded that there are exceptions, and that others have found alternatives which work for their birds. You know what works for your bird, and I was wrong to even hint suggesting otherwise Ė unless, of course, youíre beating them into submission wink .


The only man who makes no mistakes is the man who never does anything.
Theodore Roosevelt
#22734 - 06/12/07 07:47 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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Well what is this...pick on Charlie week. :p

jimmyjames,

I have been reading your posts and some of the responses are not good sound advice.Please try to refrain from this.We are here to promote safety of everyone involved.

Quote:
maybe you put to much restrictions on them or try to stay to much in their life, and she doesn't respect you, it has to go both ways.
Come on now.You have to have boundries and restrictions.Do you let your birds play with wires?Everyone has wires in their house.If your birds have freedom like you say how do they not have wires to chew or such.I haven't met a bird yet that won't try to go for a wire or something that is a danger.

Quote:
If they need a vet visit I don't put them in a box carrier, they have their own seat in the car and I carry them in on my arm. My vet and his staff are very good and know how to handle the birds so they don't get scared or upset
Any vet office I have been to you have to have your pets in a carrier.For all animal safety or properly leashed at the very least.

Of course this is just a few statements but there are more.You have to realise we can not allow advice like this here as there are risks out of this for people and birds.And when your advice is then questioned or doubted you do seem to be a bit abrassive with the members.

Quote:
Lynne you can say what you want and be as smart as you think, but its all true.
I'd say that is just an example.

Jan


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#22735 - 06/12/07 07:53 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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Jimmy-James
I read your posts, and agree that you didn't attack anyone, just stated your thoughts. Also, I do agree with you if a bird is biting it is because something is wrong. It could be for any reason known or unknown. It could be as simply as the bird is not happy where it is, and no matter what the person does the bird isn't going to be happy, to a bird that for whatever reason has learned to bite, and will continue until behavior modification is affected, and that doesn't mean that the person who has the bird will be successful in that behavior modification. (which is no reflection on the person who has the bird) I have seen friends of mine give their birds to other people for behavior modification, and then have the bird come back wonderful.
I wanted to also say, I've been reading the thread and all this QUOTE stuff is making me crazy. The QUOTE thing itself is such an attack!

For whatever, reason everyone seems to have their knickers in a twist, and no one is agreeing with anyone.

Of course the one that ripped your post to shreds is a regular here, and will be protected by the flock here at MyToos.

Please let me say that the opinions posted by the participates here are their own, and not necessarily that of everyone. Sometimes folks simply won't post for fear of the attack which will follow.

I've been here for years, and generally, I find if someone posts something I don't like, I simply blow it off if I can. There are many many times, where I would like to post something, but I look at the temperment of the thread and decide I would rather not involve myself in the cat fight. If I can't, and just have to post, I know I risk the wrath of the population.

P.S - Janny, my birds, while crated on the trip to the vet for their own safety in the car, are immediately released from their crate upon arriving at the vets office - yeah, I know, there are germs there, and they should remain in their crate with a towel over it to try to protect them against any airborn pathogens.

#22736 - 06/12/07 08:02 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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Not everyone will fit in here, nor should they. It's not for everyone.

#22737 - 06/12/07 08:11 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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happy birds I am not just talking about germs and things but if you think about this.

You don't know with your bird sitting on your arm in a vet's waiting room that the german sheppard or other dog down from you get away from it's owner and grabs your bird in it's mouth is not a danger than I don't know what is.You don't know what other animals will do given one split second opportunity and it could be life or death.

When we are in the examining room of course I let my birds out but not until then.I know they don't like the carriers but I do it for their safety.

Jan


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Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#22738 - 06/12/07 08:32 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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Sorry, I should have stated the obvious about dogs and other such animals, but generally, the only other occupants of the waiting room are birds. The majority of his clients are birds although he does do other animals including reptiles.

#22739 - 06/12/07 09:35 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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My vet is avian-only, but no longer allows birds to be removed from their travel cages because he changed locations and now has an automatic-door. He's afraid the door might startle the birds and cause them to fly out the door when it opens.

I'm not sure how much covering a cage with a normal towel would help regarding airborne pathogens. I suspect not much. A few months ago I asked my vet about disease transmittal, and he claims to not ever have had birds in his care transmit disease to other birds in his care. The whole discussion was spawned by me asking him about using Synphenol-3 (which used to also be marketed at Avinol-3 because it's safe for avian-related uses) to clean and/or disinfect Snow White's cage.

#22740 - 06/12/07 11:09 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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I use the quote function for two reasons. One, so the reader/s know exactly what I am referring to. (This also helps in the case where people wonder who I am referring to. I like to know that the person I'm referring to KNOWS it is them.) Two, because too many times, the original post has been edited or removed by the person who posted, leaving what was responded to a mystery. Whenever I post, I try to think about others who will come along later (years later sometimes), and what they may take from the discussion.

That's also why I'm a bit particular that people use details whenever they can instead of blanket statements. Case in point, just above talking about having birds loose in the waiting room at the Vets. It took an extra post to let people know that it is a Vet that is Avian-exclusive. I'm not attacking for that, just using it as an example because it's so close above (so I don't have to use the quote feature, lol.)

Lynne


If you must cripple a creature
to keep it, perhaps you should
reconsider its suitability as a pet.
#22741 - 06/13/07 12:17 AM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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I agree with HB...the quote fuction is a useful tool, not a weapon.

I support people here when I agree with them. It doesn't matter how long they have (or haven't been) a member. smile


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#22742 - 06/13/07 12:17 AM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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you are right. I overlooked the fact that there are vets where birds or even other animals could be endangered by other animals there. I'm just so used to my vet and all the birds.
In reality the point I was trying to make in my original post was I wonder if all of the folks here wear their MyToos persona away from the board, or if in their real life they would not treat others as they treat them here on the board.
Now, I know this sounds quite silly, because this is the internet after all, and no one knows anyone, but I truly get embarrased at the way some folks get treated. When I read the posts, more often than not, I know the person is not trying to be confrontational in the original post, but when they get attacked, they respond in kind, and well, like I said, I personally get embarrased.
This board has always been a straightforward no nonsense board, and that is why I joined but these days, if I refer people here, and I do, I warn them up front they are likely to get shredded, but to try to get past it and read the information that is being imparted to them as the information is good, it is just the presentation that sucks. Don't get me wrong, I would never ever want MyToos to be fluffy like some of those other boards, who's names we can't say - please, those sugar coated boards make me ill, but still I feel strongly, that we can impart the same good information without attacking people, yes, attacking...it is just so basically wrong. So, if you wear your MyToos persona away from the board, well, all I can say is that I'm glad I don't know you personally, and if the persona you wear on the board is just because you have been given license to be horrid, I wonder about the wisdom of that license. I wonder if you would want to be talked to (or written to in this case) the way you (meaning all the hard core posters) post.
No I'm not trying to stir up trouble, but when someone comes here, no matter how stupid a question may seem to us, we all have holes in our knowledge, and we all made mistakes, and these folks are lucky to have found MyToos, where they will get the truth, or our very best informed opinion.
Just my 2 cents, and I will really try hard not to comment on the members behavior any more, because it doesn't seem to make any differance.

#22743 - 06/13/07 12:25 AM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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Happybirds, we were posting at the same time. wink

I agree with you 110% about people asking questions...the only stupid question is the one that goes unasked. But there is a difference between that, and a poster handing out bad, even dangerous advice, and, as in this case repetively. wink


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#22744 - 06/13/07 12:38 AM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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My personality is the same on or offline. I'm not easy to provoke, but will speak out when it's necessary. I like people to get as much good information as possible. In this thread, a lot was gained for those who thirst to learn.

Lynne


If you must cripple a creature
to keep it, perhaps you should
reconsider its suitability as a pet.
#22745 - 06/13/07 03:27 AM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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Well I think maybe some of you may have to much time on you hands and all you do on here is ramble on. Another subject please!


Kerr&Rumor
#22746 - 06/17/07 08:23 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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Quote:
Well I think maybe some of you may have to much time on you hands and all you do on here is ramble on. Another subject please!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 110 | Registered: Apr 2007 | IP: Logged |
I post when I have something to say. If the moderators or admin. want me to shut up, they'll tell me. Otherwise, I'll continue to post when and if I feel like it. If you don't like the subject or think some of us talk too much, I would suggest that you don't read the threads that bother you.
wink

#22747 - 06/17/07 09:59 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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YOU KNOW WHAT I WASNT REALLY TALKING ABOUT YOU TOO ANYWAY! I AM NOT GOING TO ARGUE WITH YOU. I WILL SAY WHAT I WANT ANYWAY I WAS MEANING LETS QUIT ARGUING ABOUT THE SUBJECT.


Kerr&Rumor
#22748 - 06/17/07 10:14 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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LeAnn,

Just because you don't like the content does not mean others don't.There are other topics for you to view and participate in.I don't understand why you need to post a comment like that when you can just ignore the post if you don't like it.

I think this topic was a good one and there are allot of very important points in here for members who care about this can read and reference.

If you want to direct certain individuals in a post then do so otherwise it looks as though your post is directed at everyone.Address the person you are referring to or misunderstanding can happen.

Jan


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#22749 - 06/17/07 10:56 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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BLAH BLAH! I WANT MY MEMBERSHIP OFF THE SITE AND I DONT KNOW HOW. I AM SICK OF SOME OF YOU PEOPLE ON HERE. LIKE I SAID SOME OF YOU PEOPLE ON HERE ARE VERY CRUEL AND JUDGEMENTAL OF OTHERS AND I DON'T WANT TO BELONG ON HERE ANYMORE! ITS OK FOR YOU TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT BUT WHEN OTHERS DO YOU ARE RUDE TO THEM AND I AM SICK OF IT!

EDIT by Charlie, our position: http://www.mytoos.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=000009


Kerr&Rumor
#22750 - 06/17/07 11:04 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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If you don't want to be here then don 't come here. your m embership will go away at some point.
Boy I learned the hard way that birds can bite. Don't worry I know they can bite, but this is the first cockatoo bite that I have gotten in a long time.There's this bird that my friend owns that I am working with. And I went to take him out, and he jumped on my hand. I thought great, he's coming on my hand automatically. But No he bit the snot out of me lol. Now he's running around the place, and I can't get him *sigh* guess will have to get him at some point./


look to your birds for love
Chewy RB2
Lightning-parakeet
Zeus-zebra finch
RIP
Eli
little foot Cockatiels
#22751 - 06/17/07 11:20 PM Re: Getting bit is YOUR fault  
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Several years ago a guy came to work with his nose in bandages. When I asked him what happened he said, "He misinterpreted the mood of his parrot". <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" /> Well, that put the whole room into rolling on the floor. Since he had a macaw, I guess he got of lucky. One thing I have learned on this site is to recognize moods and behaviors of our RB2s before I get bit or just to figure out what our RB2s want. They only have limited ways to communicate and biting is one of them. Harry and Hannah are teaching us, one bite at a time.... <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" />


Susanne
Our flock: 2 RB2s
Our herd & rescue: turtles, tortoises, other reptiles
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