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#219966 - 04/29/10 08:35 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hi Bev,

But wouldn't it be even more reinforcing if they got LESS of that treat? In other words, they have to work harder for it, for example, they have to perform the desired behaviour say 3 times to get the treat. This ofcourse would be fixed ratio, then couldn't one move on to variable ratio so the parrot never knows when he's going to get the treat? Is this, however, too stressful on the bird and considered "cruel"?

Also, a bite is reinforcing. What happens when we say "step-up" to our birdie and he bites, then we leave him alone, haven't we then reinforced this behaviour?

(Sorry for my ignorance, I'm just a bit confused and eager to learn!)

Daniel

#219967 - 04/29/10 09:08 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: Daaaniel]  
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Dr.Paul Chance in Learning and Behavior

"The simplest of simple schedules is called continuous reinforcement, or CRF. In continuous reinforcement, a behavior is reinforced every time it occurs.

Each reinforcement strengthens behavior, so continuous reinforcement leads to very rapid increases in the rate of behavior. It is especially useful, then, when the task is to shape up some new behavior or behavior chain."

Once you become a conditioned reinforcer to your bird, you won't need to give a treat every time. If your birds foot is not up in the air when you ask him to step up, you should leave well enough alone. I know when my birds say "no". I respect that but I have built up enough of a positive history with them that 95% of the time, I get the behaviours I ask for. And I pay them at certain times but not all of the time.

Make sense now?

Bev

Daniel, I'm not training my birds for a show. I just want good behaviour from them and that is what I get. Again, I don't see why we have such a problem with paying our birds for requested behaviour. So you are out 3 pine nuts instead of one? Like I said, eventually you won't need to give treats every time but you have to work for that in the beginning. You set them up to succeed.


Last edited by ZazuSally; 04/29/10 09:22 PM. Reason: typo

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#219968 - 04/29/10 09:15 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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GREAT REPLY!!! Thanks Bev

#220182 - 05/04/10 02:24 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: Daaaniel]  
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OK, are there any questions on Chapter 3. If not, go ahead and read Chapter 4.

Bev


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#220187 - 05/04/10 07:37 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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We used a treat as the "CRF" with Ozzy for about the first year. Now he never requires a treat, and always does what is asked of him readily. He still gets "CRF" but in the form of praises or scritches. If offered a treat instead, he will take it but 90% of the time just drops it and waits for applause. That boy is a ham lol.

Ready for chapter 4 Bev smile


Deborah
A Too is not a pet, it is a choice for life!


#220265 - 05/05/10 08:01 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: FeatheredAngels]  
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Very good, Deborah!!

Can you explain what has happened?

Bev

We will take a bit of time to go through Chapter 4 as it has a lot of very good information.

Does everyone understand the book so far? If you don't understand something, please ask, because for every one person who doesn't understand something, there is probably 10 people who are afraid to ask. It took me a long time before I got it and I really want people to understand this. I remember thinking I was probably the only person who didn't get it but trust me there were lots of us who had a difficult time with it.


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#220267 - 05/05/10 09:15 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
Very good, Deborah!!

Can you explain what has happened?


I believe that by constantly using positive reinforcement, we built up such trust, that Ozzy always knows that there will be a positive outcome when he complies. In the beginning it was a treat, as time progressed intermittently we used verbal praises or head scritches. So no matter what we were asking of him, he knows that by complying with us he will receive some sort of positive reinforcement for his good behavior.


Today Ozzy will do almost anything asked of him by us. If he hesitates and doesn't comply, we never force the issue. We do something else...wait a few moments and ask him again. He eventually always gives in and complies. The only time that he really even hesitates is when asked to step up at bed time. He is smart and understands the time of day etc, plus we always tell him it is "birdy bed time" and "time to go night night". We always start about 30 minutes early just in case he isnt quite ready. 95% of the time though, he steps right up and says "night night"? He gets lots of scritches from both Mom and Dad, plus he has an almond waiting in his sleep cage.

So long story short lol, by always making our requests a positive moment for him, he knows there is always something in it for him.


Deborah
A Too is not a pet, it is a choice for life!


#220573 - 05/11/10 06:24 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: FeatheredAngels]  
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Excellent answer, Deborah!!

So you have become a conditioned reinforcer. Ozzy knows that when you ask something of him and he complies, good things happen.

How often does the hesitation happen before bedtime, Deborah?

What is a primary and secondary reinforcer? And what can be an issue with primary reinforcers?

Bev


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#220580 - 05/11/10 07:16 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally

How often does the hesitation happen before bedtime, Deborah?

He rarely hesitates, since we make sure that prior bedtime, he has had ample time doing the things he loves. He has had his oatmeal, time to run about and play with Mom and Dad, and then he has quiet time with me for head scritches and soft talk.

Originally Posted By: ZazuSally

What is a primary and secondary reinforcer? And what can be an issue with primary reinforcers?

A primary reinforcer are things like food, ie... an almond in his sleep cage.
A secondary reinforcer are things like praise and scritches, ie... we always spend at least 10 minutes before bedtime getting good scritches and quiet talk.

The problem with a primary reinforcer is that it may not be desired at that moment. If Ozzy is full, he is less likely to comply with my request, even though there is an offer of an almond waiting.

He is more likely to comply for the secondary reinforcer of a good head scritching and being able to spend time sitting quietly with me prior bed time. Ozzy looks forward to our nightly quiet time, and so the secondary reinforcer is really the key for him.


Deborah
A Too is not a pet, it is a choice for life!


#220584 - 05/11/10 07:30 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: FeatheredAngels]  
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Excellent Deborah!!!

I do not always get compliance from my birds when it's time to go to bed either. We all have our days and why should they be any different. When one reinforcer doesn't work, there is always something that will.

Anybody else?

Bev

Last edited by ZazuSally; 05/11/10 07:31 PM.

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#221072 - 05/20/10 08:31 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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OK, if there are no questions, please read Chapter 6.

Is everyone losing interest?

Bev


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#221073 - 05/20/10 08:32 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Nope not me! :), this is the stuff that makes life with all my babies so rewarding!!!!


Deborah
A Too is not a pet, it is a choice for life!


#221278 - 05/27/10 02:19 AM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: FeatheredAngels]  
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Not losing interest but having trouble applying what I'm reading to bird behavior. If you can give examples of how to use some of these things with our birds, it would be helpful, but maybe that's just me! I'm working with Cleo on "step up", using pine nuts as primary reinforcer and praise and scritches for secondary. Once she is doing this pretty reliably, I want to see how ABA can help with the problem I have with bathing her.


Pat

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#221279 - 05/27/10 02:21 AM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: Cleo's Mom]  
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How do you give her a bath now, Pat? And what happens?

Bev

Last edited by ZazuSally; 05/27/10 02:21 AM.

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#221334 - 05/28/10 12:19 PM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Bev, I'll read chapter 6 then. No questions so far, I think...

Daniel.

#221435 - 05/31/10 02:09 AM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: Daaaniel]  
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Sorry for the delay in replying - my life gets very hectic sometimes. "Step up" is going well, in fact that's all Cleo wants to do, even trying to push my arm into step up position if it's not. The only time she won't is when she's really concentrating on something like a toy or chewing on wood. Should I expect her to step up when asked, no matter what she's doing? At what point do I stop giving the treat? Re the bathing problem, I think it best to continue with stepping up and stepping down, also catching up in the book as I've fallen behind a bit. Sound like a good plan, or no?


Pat

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#221516 - 06/02/10 05:52 AM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: Cleo's Mom]  
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No, Pat you should not expect her to step up no matter what she's doing. You are allowing her to make a choice. That is very, very important.

Why do you want to stop giving her the treat? Have you tried asking her to do something without the treat? She probably would, you know. You are probably a conditioned reinforcer yourself. Just try it and see what happens. 95% of the time I ask my birds to do something, I don't give them anything. There are certain times like in the morning when I'm going to work and when it's time to go to bed, they always get a reward.

Pat, I put a fan in the window, a huge SS bowl of water (96 ounce bowl) attached to Zazu's cage and a vinyl tablecloth on the floor, move Nikki's cage over and I mist Zazu, Sally and Nikki until they are soaked. I'm working on Gypsy. She will occasionally fly over and land on the bowl but only gets the tip of her beak wet. The fan is pointed at the bowl. Soon as I do this, they all want to get wet. Go figure. LOL

It works and that's all that matters.

We'll do the book again in September so don't sweat it.

Bev


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#221593 - 06/04/10 01:54 AM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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I thought that after a while the bird was so condidtioned that the treat wasn't necessary in order to get the requested behavior. I have no problem with continuing the treat although sometimes Cleo will step up when asked even if she doesn't see the treat in my hand. When she does this, she always gets head scritches and lots of praise. I have never been able to bathe Cleo even though others can do it. The AV tells me Cleo loves her bath but when I try, she acts like the water is sulfuric acid! She screams, bites and jumps off my arm no matter what I try. I was taking her into the shower with me, holding her away from the water but I guess I moved too fast trying to get her under the spray. After that, I couldn't get her near the shower. One day I took her out in a gentle rain - same behavior so I'm kind of at my wits end and not really sure how I can apply ABA in this situation.


Pat

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#221595 - 06/04/10 02:59 AM Re: Understanding ABA - April 11, 2010 [Re: Cleo's Mom]  
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Pat, just skip the treat every second request, then every third and see what happens. I suspect you are already reinforcing to her and the treat is not necessary. My birds step up for me most of the time because they have learned that when they step up, good things happen. It is basically on an intermittent reinforcement schedule now and my birds find me reinforcing or my attention. So every couple of times, ask Cleo to step up and do not give her a treat and see what happens. Eventually, you can probably drop the treat altogether but I personally don't want to do this so there is never a food reward. Like I said 95% of the time, my birds do not get a food reward. For example, Nikki finds going to the bathroom when I am having a bath, VERY reinforcing. As soon as she sees me getting undressed or if I run the bath water without her being in the bathroom, she cries like a cat until I go get her. When I get the basket, she practically throws herself on it. It is so cute.

How does she get bathed at the vets? Would they let you watch them with you in the background. Does she go in the bathroom with you? If so, how is she in there. You can shape this behaviour, Pat.

Bev

Let me know if this is helpful.

http://goodbirdinc.blogspot.com/2009/04/getting-parrot-to-bathe.html


Last edited by ZazuSally; 06/04/10 03:06 AM. Reason: added link

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