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#216710 - 02/09/10 03:02 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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I am very pleased to read today's progression on this thread. I agree, good job Greg! As an attorney, you know there is more than one way to win a case - LOL!


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

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#216713 - 02/09/10 04:03 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: EchosMom]  
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I am so, so pleased to read your posts, Greg! Way to go!! Did your wife notice a difference, too? Keep up the good work - your "light bulb" moment was priceless smile!

Annette


The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step - Old Chinese Proverb
#216718 - 02/09/10 04:46 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: MissYumYum]  
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See Greg, you have lots of people supporting you!! That is what makes this community so great!!!

I am going to ask everyone from here out (except Bev of course) to refrain from replies. This is the ABA forum and Greg has requested individualized help.

The cheering squad will have to "rah-rah" in silence - LOL!

Thanks for understanding everyone.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#216733 - 02/09/10 03:39 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: EchosMom]  
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Thanks EM. Now it's time to get serious. If there are any questions, they can be asked in another forum.

So any update today Greg?


Bev


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#216746 - 02/09/10 07:06 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
So any update today Greg?Bev


I brought him down around 7am as usual...spoke to him briefly and rubbed his head and neck...he went into the cage and played for a bit with leather knots (usually rubs them on his head...weird) then started to eat and I went about my business...

I got ready for work and he was an angel...I went down afer getting dressed to 2 quiet birds and proceeded to make a fuss, open the doors, gave them treats and they were out for a while...another deposit into the account...

All toll I could count the screams on 1 hand this morning...all singles...whenever he screamed I called back "Hello pretty bird, etc..." and he was either quiet or changed his tune...he seems more relaxed...I know which sounds accompany his nervous energy (i.e.- shaking, twichting, neck snapping etc...)and they are less frequent...

He has had the tea in his water since last monday, but only since friday in a 70/30 ratio to water...I am afraid to remove it... frown

#216748 - 02/09/10 08:02 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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That's OK, Greg, at some point you will realize that it is what YOU are doing for O that is making a difference, not the tea. Can you see that your behaviour towards O is changing? You are finding ways to satisfy his needs and then you get your needs satisfied (quiet). Make sense?

Do you have any empty rooms in your house? Humour me on this one, Greg!! LOL

Bev


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#216761 - 02/09/10 10:24 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
Do you have any empty rooms in your house? Humour me on this one, Greg!! LOL Bev


Yes, in fact Os sleep cage is set up in an extra bedroom upstairs...as soon as I find another deal on a used cage I am going to get one for Buddi as well and have them both sleep upstairs...why do you ask?

I plan on doing the same thing when I get home tonite but thought I should try and lenghten the time I make O wait for me to take her out...or is that not a good idea?

The priority sould be taking him out before he screams, thereby teaching him he does not need to scream to come out? So I want to take him out before he screams?

#216786 - 02/10/10 01:20 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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Yes, you need to take him out before he screams. That is an antecedent change.

Greg, on the weekend I want you to go into an empty room, with no TV, no music, no computer, no book, nothing and sit there for 15 minutes. Just sit in a chair. You must be alone, no interuptions. Can you do that for me?

Bev


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#216790 - 02/10/10 02:24 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
Greg, on the weekend I want you to go into an empty room, with no TV, no music, no computer, no book, nothing and sit there for 15 minutes. Just sit in a chair. You must be alone, no interuptions. Can you do that for me?Bev


Your kidding, right?

Tonite went very much like last nite...excellent when I first came in the door. No screaming prior to taking out of the cage. I made him wait a little longer for dinner as I had a few things to do so he screamesd a few times...but only singles...I tried tp divert attention but when it comes to food...well...

If I try to distract/divert from screaming, should I wait a certain period of time before approaching him? What is necessary for him to associate the change in behavior with the reinforcement?

After he ate he was in the kitchen with us during dinner...

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o93/GregM06/camppicturesNikon300.jpg

Twice the noise and mess as Buddi but a heart of gold...

#216792 - 02/10/10 02:30 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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No, I'm not kidding. There is a method to my madness, OK? Since there is supposed to be a huge snow storm down your way, you can even try it tomorrow.

Do you remember when we discussed contingency and contiguity? If you do this, you get that. So the reward is contingent on the behaviour requested being performed. Contiguous is timing and the reward/treat/consequence must be immediate so the bird knows what it is being rewarded for. In this case, you need to capture O when he is being good. So you go to him before he starts screaming, spend a couple of minutes, try to capture a phrase/song that you can live with and then when you get it (even something that remotely resembles it, reinforce the crap out of that. You can then build on it.

Got it?

Bev

PS: Why do you say he has a heart of gold?

Is Buddy a stuffed cockatoo? LOL

Last edited by ZazuSally; 02/10/10 02:31 AM.

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#216839 - 02/10/10 08:51 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Yes, yet another horrible snow storm...I hate this winter...

Things have gone pretty well today. He was in the cage ths am as usual. I went out and shoveled 7:30-9:30 and he was quiet. I came in and, while still quiet, took him out and made a fuss and he hung out and had snacks until about 11.

I was concerned about his reaction when going back in the cage. He only midly protested and was in the cage from 11 to 1 with only a few screams and I waited for a period of quiet and again made a fuss and took him out...is he oging to associate quiet with coming out or is this just general deposits into his account? Having read yout last post I am not sure his is making the connection between quiet and reward...

Here is a question: when he is out on the tree sometimes he lets loose with a few of those killer screams and it is hard not to run right to him to quiet him...what should I do? The same as when he is in the cage? i.e- get him to change his tune first?

Last edited by GregM; 02/10/10 08:52 PM.
#216840 - 02/10/10 09:02 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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Greg, it is imperative that you do not go to him when he is screaming. Don't even look at him. Yes, do the same thing first, try to get a sound from him that you can live with and reinforce the hell out of it. I mean jackpot reinforce. Are you sure it's not a normal cockatoo "it's good to be alive yell". The more deposits you make into his attention tank, the less screaming you should hear from him. If you know he is going to scream, you need to head that off before he starts. Pretty soon and they are very smart Greg, he will learn that screaming is not the way to get the things he wants. This is going to take time, Greg. It didn't happen in a day and it won't be modified in a day. It's a work in progress but it's better than it was, right? Considering it's been less than a week, that is amazing. So you must be doing something right.

How much out of cage time does he get in a day? How does he get to burn off energy?

Did you sit in the room for 1/2 hour like I asked? Should be easy after all that snow shovelling. LOL

Bev


Last edited by ZazuSally; 02/10/10 09:02 PM. Reason: added something

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#216893 - 02/11/10 05:29 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
Greg, it is imperative that you do not go to him when he is screaming. Don't even look at him. The more deposits you make into his attention tank, the less screaming you should hear from him.

How much out of cage time does he get in a day? How does he get to burn off energy?

Did you sit in the room for 1/2 hour like I asked? Should be easy after all that snow shovelling. LOL

Bev


I do feel that the success I have had so far is due to the deposits.

I ran into some problems mid fternoon after I took him out again...when he was out for while on the tree and I walked away he let go with a few rounds and I found myself immedieatly running to him to cut that off...

So which is it? When he lets go with that scream do I ignore him or try to get him to change his tune? Or is it the same thing? I dont mean I run ovr and pet him or give a treat...I run over and try to get him to change his tune...is that the same thing?

On average weekday he is out of the cage about 3 hrs a day. More on weekend. He plays with toys in cage destroying perches and climbs around on tree and likes the swing...but really can not do the physical stuff most birds can due to his bum wing...he shakes a lot...climbs around like a monkey...his bath tires him as he usually chills on the swing for a while afterwards...only time he is quiet and stays in one place...

You said 15 minutes smile Did not get to do it yet...




Last edited by GregM; 02/11/10 05:44 AM.
#216902 - 02/11/10 04:47 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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Greg, screaming is a maladaptive communication. So because you have reinforced O's screaming and because it was your attention O was after, any attention from you, even a glance Greg, reinforces that screaming. This is because O's attention tank has been low. So what you are doing by going to him before he screams and doing some activities with him is filling that tank. This didn't happen in a day, Greg and we won't solve it in a day but if you go back to the old ways, he will revert to the screaming because that was the only way he got your attention in the past. It starts out as a little yell you ignore, it goes to a bigger yell, you ignore this too and then it goes to a full blown scream and bang you yell at the bird (not saying you do this but this happens all the time) and you have just reinforced screaming at a louder level. Now if you go back to trying to ignore that, the bird learns to yell louder and longer and eventually humans being what we are with our sensitive ear drums, we yell again and now you have just reinforced the screaming at a new longer and louder level. Get it? So the bird tries to tell you by a little yell (but we just ignore that and that is a huge mistake) that you aren't spending enough time with me and it ends up getting reinforced by us so that we end up with a screaming bird. Two of my birds were rehomed for screaming (Nikki and Zazu). Imagine that. I do the best I can to meet those needs otherwise what's the point in having them. It's a 2 way street. I give them what they need and I get what I want which is well behaved birds, most of the time, they are after all birds. LOL

No, you need to prevent that screaming from ever starting, Greg. He's got some pent up energy from being in the cage so why not take 5-10 minutes and do a little training with him. Give him a job. Teach him some simple tricks. When I let my birds out when I come home from work, I do a little something with each of them before I start the dishes. I acknowledge each one and I'm talking seconds here, Greg. Seriously, Greg, take him out and dance with him for 5 minutes. Just 5 minutes and make up the O song. His own special song.

Birds were not designed to be quiet just as we were not designed to sit around.

Any questions?


Bev

OK, 15 minutes. Why are you putting it off? LOL

Last edited by ZazuSally; 02/11/10 04:58 PM.

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#216917 - 02/11/10 09:04 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
It starts out as a little yell you ignore, it goes to a bigger yell, you ignore this too and then it goes to a full blown scream and bang you yell at the bird (not saying you do this but this happens all the time) and you have just reinforced screaming at a louder level...Seriously, Greg, take him out and dance with him for 5 minutes. Just 5 minutes and make up the O song. His own special song.Any questions?


My most common and misguided response to the verbal onslaught will be to clap my hands and sternly say "Hey...enough of that, O..." or something along those lines...I know I should not but sometimes its out of my mouth before I even think...like a relfex reaction to a startling sound...

He came out this morning and there was more activity and talking than usual in the house which caused a few screams but he quickly started playing with toys...it happened several times and I thought each time he would launch into a non stop barrage but it did not escalate and quickly ended...I was happy about that...

He was quiet when I got ready for work and I took him out before I left to thank him and he played and snacked...my wife is home from work due to the snow and I am interested to hear how he does today without me there...

Song and Dance? O has his own catalog! All he does is talk, sing or bob up and down, streching out his neck and shoulders and running through his repetoire...previous owners handiwork:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBMy9pqx0FU

I dont usually engage him like this in the am...more like after dinner...

#216921 - 02/11/10 09:17 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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OMG, Greg, that is absolutely priceless. You need to get that clearer and post it again. That is brilliant. I'm grinning from ear to ear. Is that at your place? He really is a gem, isn't he or she?

Well, you need to engage him in the morning if you want peace and quiet in your house. Just a few minutes, Greg. Go wild, think outside the box. Why don't you engage him like that in the morning?

Why do you think he has been behaving better, Greg?

Greg, are you a Virgo? LOL

I thought you were snowed in? You just don't want to sit in a room for 15 minutes, do you? LOL

Bev


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#216927 - 02/11/10 10:50 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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OMG, that is absolutely adorable. Greg, please post O's dancing in the Photo/Video forum so that everyone can "Ooooo and ahhhh" over him - it's just too cute!


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#216946 - 02/12/10 02:35 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
OMG, Greg, that is absolutely priceless. You need to get that clearer and post it again. That is brilliant. I'm grinning from ear to ear. Is that at your place? He really is a gem, isn't he or she?
Well, you need to engage him in the morning if you want peace and quiet in your house. Just a few minutes, Greg. Go wild, think outside the box. Why don't you engage him like that in the morning? Bev


HE is...funny, although the name O has stuck with him it is confusing once he was sexed and is male...my son calls him "Michael" after a classmate at college with gender issues...very funny...

Now you know why everyone fell in love with him on Xmas eve and why I say a heart of gold...outgoing and expressive...by comparison Buddi is an introvert and reserved...

The days of stress and shoveling caught up to me as I fell a sleep last nite shortly after 8pm! Hence, no post...but it was a good evening. The usual routine when I got home...a few screams but limited in number and duration...they ate well and then while dinner was being prepapred I put on some music and had a scheduled "Sqwuack-A-Palozza" with both of them carrying on...after that they were angels...hung out until (early) bedtime...

This morning I allowed O to hang out with cage door open when I first brought him down...he is immobile and can not reach any furnishings to destroy it (done on purpose) so worse he can do is poop on floor (which he does constantly)...he has not screamed once this am... he is very content hanging in cage with door open...that "freedom to choose" thing again?

Since I am a Capriocorn and need to control all situations I sometimes run head on into the birds desire to have "freedom of choice"...I know...control is an illusion...humor me smile

By the way, O came with her own CD of prefered listening music and is a big Patsy Cline fan...

#216948 - 02/12/10 03:12 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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Well then no wonder O is so special, I LOVE Patsy Cline.

Michael O does have a nice ring, don't you think?

Absolutely, freedom to choose is huge for these intelligent animals. You can make them do things for so long but eventually the bird is going to bite you somewhere. LOL

I used to be a control freak Greg but realized long ago that it really is an illusion. We have control over nothing. The control freaks will find the transformation difficult but when we get it, oh boy, it smacks us in the gut, and we wonder how the hell we could have been so dense. You are gleaning tidbits of the lightbulb moment, are you not? And one more little tidbit from Dr. Phil, " Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?" LOL

OK, soldier, I want 15 minutes in a room by yourself on the weekend!!! No more putting it off. LOL There is a very good reason for this, Greg. You can't be lying on a bed either you must be sitting in a chair in the middle of the room.

How's that for control? LOL

Bev

Last edited by ZazuSally; 02/12/10 04:04 PM.

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#216968 - 02/12/10 10:57 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
And one more little tidbit from Dr. Phil, " Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?" LOL
Bev


Thats a rhetorical question,right? I realize that its not about me winning but rather cohabitation and am willing to compromise, though I must always retain the upper hand...

Case in point: since Buddi is not flighted (O can not fly) I can control his whereabouts. I let him out and he is limited to the top of cage and orbit swing that he can reach hanging above cage...but lately he started climbing down onto the ledge on the "cut out" between the kitchen and family room and then onto the bakers rack to wreak havoc with my wife nick nacks...when I see him looking to go I give him a "Buddi No..." and with the gleam of a 3 year old in his eye he goes...so I get him, put him on top of the cage again and roll it away from the ledge so he can not reach the ledge and is, again, "land locked" on top of cage...he does not like that and I keep thinking that eventually he will realize that climbing on bakers rack = roll away of the cage, right? Well the little buzzard has decided to climb down onto the floor instead! The first time he has ever done that in a year and a half since he is here...and he did it twice...so much for control...

Anyway, I have been around the house most of the day doing storm duty...I got a real snowblower yesterday and had to finish cleaning up outside and have some gutters down...I have been in and out of the house most of the day and by and large O has been good...still screams but less frequent, less duration and I can easily divert him from it...the regular deposits onto his account appear to be paying dividends...

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