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#216518 - 02/06/10 06:49 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: Janny]  
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That's OK Janny, when we are ready to nail things down, I will just remind everyone not to post otherwise it gets too confusing but I think the things said so far have been helpful, have they not, Greg?

Bev


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#216531 - 02/06/10 07:30 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
That's OK Janny, when we are ready to nail things down, I will just remind everyone not to post otherwise it gets too confusing but I think the things said so far have been helpful, have they not, Greg? Bev


Yes, I realize that I began employng these principles and had gotten away from them and, accordingly, O behaved worse...I also have been careful to remain calm, not scream at my idiot dog for barking 24/7 etc...which I think he feeds off...

We started the am as usual but with a spray bath today...he chilled on a swing for about 1.5 hour then went in the cage for breakfast and was good all morning...went out for first rounds of shoveling from 10-11:30 and he was good...came in and he started screaming as soon as he saw me...diverted his screaming to "hello pretty bird" and made a fuss and took him out...he was out for a while on tree and is now on my shoulder as I type...I will put him back in the cage with a treat and see what happens...I know he will eventualy scream but will have to allow it for him to realize he can not come out and hang on me all day, right?

I may bring up the other perch I have and see if he will spend time on that without screaming...if he would just hang out quietly I would be fine with it but even when he is out he will eventually end up screaming for attention...

#216535 - 02/06/10 07:59 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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If you keep his attention tanked filled, the screaming will decrease. You need to be observant. No you don't want him hanging on you all the time, but you also don't want to let him get to the point of screaming either. Because then when you do go to him you have reinforced the screaming. Catch it beforehand and top off his attention tank - or give him something else interesting to do.





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#216551 - 02/07/10 12:38 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: EchosMom]  
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He was pretty good when he went back in the cage...had 1 episode and I let him scream for about 5 min. until I got him to change his tune to speach and then took him out...

He was good the rest of the nite...mellowed out on swing while we ate...on my shoulder now...

But I cant help feel he is training me...sure, as long as he is the first thing on my mind at all times and I take him out 4-5 times a day he will scream less...but that is not teaching him to be independant and spend more time in his cage...what about when I am not home? He will scream all day...

#216553 - 02/07/10 01:37 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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Greg, I can guarantee you he does not scream when nobody is home. It would get him nothing. When he screams when you are home, he gets your attention, whether that is yelling at him, going to pick him up, etc.

You have to let go of that " I can't help feel he is training me". He wants some of your attention, imagine that? A pet wanting some attention? You are the one who is responsible for reinforcing the screaming for extended periods. Now you have to undo that. My birds are always out. You can teach him to be independent when you've got the screaming reduced. One thing at a time. He is a bird Greg, not Einstein. The behaviours that work to get him the things he wants, he keeps, behaviours that don't get him the things he wants, go away. That is a given for all living creatures. You sound like you think he is doing this on purpose. You have to take responsibility. Dr. Phil says you can't change what you don't acknowledge. Do you want a good relationship with him and peace in the house or do you just want to keep blaming him for stuff.

Bev

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#216572 - 02/07/10 02:47 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
Greg, I can guarantee you he does not scream when nobody is home. It would get him nothing. When he screams when you are home, he gets your attention, whether that is yelling at him, going to pick him up, etc.
Bev


Right, and that is where the problem begins...not when I am home, but when I am not and my wife and/or son are...

They did not sign on for a full time job and as much as I preach and ask them to try and implement the ABA methods they are not going to revolve their day around O...my wife has things to do, plus we have a 16 year old blind incontinent Yorkie who is a full time job, and my sons is studying for the LSATs, for which Os noise is a major distraction...they will eventually try to ignore him and he will just scream...and allowing that for too long is counter productive, right? It reinforces the screaming?

If I could just get him to spend a little more quiet time...anywhere! I am taking out the other (conventional) perch I have and see if he will spend more quiet time on that as opposed to the tree...I was told he spent a lot of time on the perch in the past and may feel more comfortable...

#216601 - 02/07/10 09:13 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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Quote:
They did not sign on for a full time job and as much as I preach and ask them to try and implement the ABA methods they are not going to revolve their day around O...my wife has things to do, plus we have a 16 year old blind incontinent Yorkie who is a full time job, and my sons is studying for the LSATs, for which Os noise is a major distraction...


Then you are screwed! No, Ophelia is screwed. I hope you can find a suitable home quickly. Just remember, the chances of Buddi going off the deep end eventually is a real possibility as the years go on. I hate to interfere in the ABA threads but I see this one going no where. It needs to be shut down if there is no possibility for success.

#216616 - 02/07/10 10:51 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: Charlie]  
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Originally Posted By: Charlie
I hate to interfere in the ABA threads but I see this one going no where. It needs to be shut down if there is no possibility for success.


Seriously, do any of the adminstrators/moderators on this forum realize how many more Toos they might be able to help if they practiced even a scintilla of tact...dare I say tolerance...for the mere mortals who do not immediatley meet with their standards...

By all means, if you feel there is "no possiility for success" I would hate to be wasting anyones time...

The methods employed do appear to help and I am candidly discussing the problems/limitations that I face in implementing them... surely that is part of the process and something others face in thier homes as well...

Yet this is the third time in less than a week I have been told to find O a more "suitable" home which, quite frankly, I find insulting. I have opened my heart to a Too that needed a home and have tried to give him everything he needs and have asked for nothing but advice...sorry for wasting your time.

#216620 - 02/08/10 12:12 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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I didn't lock this thread. Janet did, temporarily, while she has other concerns. Let's use this as a cooling off point. I keep cheering for you Greg, I really do, but all I hear are excuses. We can't beat a dead horse here, the ABA staff are very busy trying to help people. This thread will be opened in the near future while everyone regroups. Thanks!

#216635 - 02/08/10 03:44 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: Janny]  
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Yes, I temporarily locked the thread, and unlocked it a few hours ago.

Greg, as long as you continue to blame everything on O, his behavior isn't going to change. While you were not the one that originally reinforced his behaviors, you, as his caretaker are responsible for affecting the changes that you want to see. And in my opinion, antipsychotic meds are not an option. Perhaps in some very rare instances they may be considered medically necessary but should never be used to curb undesired behaviors. If you really felt that your reference to drugs for behavior modification was going to be embraced, you haven't read enough of this forum yet. I also ask that you take a look at the way you posed that question..."before my wife issues me an ultimatum". Based on the way you worded your question, I stand by my reply.

You have received some very good advice from this forum, including offers to help you use ABA effectively, foraging ideas, etc. Yet, you never seem to be able to stick to them. If I recall correctly, you were also cautioned against bringing O into your home, unless all of the members of your household were on board with your decision. As Bev said, without their help, they will be a deterrent in the success of ABA.

I for one, am more than willing to help you with O and I know that Bev is also. You have to understand that if we are going to take the time to help you, you and your family have to put forth the effort and be consistent with it as well. Just as behaviors are not learned overnight, they aren't changed overnight either.

I saw that you asked for information on the Foraging DVD again. I am happy to see that.


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#216643 - 02/08/10 04:36 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: EchosMom]  
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Greg, you are a very, very smart man and I KNOW you can do this. It is very hard to let go of some of our beliefs when it comes to animals but you have to. You will be amazed at the transformation in you and O.

I absolutely guarantee you.

Do you want to go ahead with a dedicated one-on-one thread?

Bev


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#216677 - 02/08/10 06:46 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: EchosMom]  
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Originally Posted By: EchosMom
And in my opinion, antipsychotic meds are not an option...If I recall correctly, you were also cautioned against bringing O into your home, unless all of the members of your household were on board with your decision...Just as behaviors are not learned overnight, they aren't changed overnight either.


OK, I am sorry I ever asked the question about the anxiety meds...it was only a question... and the response was overhelmingly against it and I have moved past that as a possibility..

To all those offering help, please understand I am not asking questions because I am skeptical of the ABA process...I saw Jannys (now deleted?) "GregMandO" thread and I am not trying to be negative at all...if I appeared so I can assure you it was not my intention. I am trying to understand how it works; not questioning if it works. If I did not believe in the process I would not be wasting your time and mine. So lets just move forward from here: I never asked about anxiety meds and need a way to improve Os screaming. smile

So I spent the majority of the weekend around the house. Whenever O started to scream I diverted her focus from screaming to a more pleasant sound, like "Hello pretty bird" and made a fuss and most of the times took her out. But I realized (slow learner) that maybe just praise, rubbing his head through the bars and a snack might also work as well so I alternated and by sunday was not taking him out as much...and the screaming was less frequent and of shorter duration. But that same question that has nagged me keeps popping into my head...how is this training him to be less dependent and scream less? It's like he is training me...or is he...

I had somewhat of an epiphany this morning. Its funny how sometimes you can hear but not listen. O was an angel...came out as usual...played and ate...nary a squack...I exercised, came up and got ready for work...an angel...so good and I thought to myself "he is quiet,leave him alone..." and thats when it hit me...

I remember speaking to the 2nd owner who filled me in on his background. She casually mentioned that O was full feathered when she got him and that she had to move him to a remote room and cover him to deal with the screaming. Her girlfriend chimed in that she would come over during the day to visit and the bird would be covered."...leave him alone, he is quiet..." she would be told. (of course he was quiet, he was busy pulling feathers but that is not the point) LEAVE HIM ALONE, HE IS QUIET! The same thing I have been doing...

Then I thought about some of the advise here, specifically about keeping his "tank" full. I realized the only time I have been going to him is when he screams..."leave him alone, he is quiet"...wow...

So after I got ready for work I went down and, although I do not usually on my way out the door, I praised the s--t out of him and took him out (and Buddi)and we played and had snacks...you should have seen the look on his face...he was perplexed as if to say to why did I do that without him screaming...so hopefully I added some gas to his "tank" and I will no longer leave him alone when he is quiet...I will reward quiet with reinforcers...praise and food...wow...the forest from the trees...

#216680 - 02/08/10 06:55 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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Greg, please forgive me, but I must chuckle here!! You remind me of my husband.....he over engineers EVERYTHING! I'm happy to see the simplicity of ABA is surfacing. Good NO, EXCELLENT Job!


Man has turned Earth into a hell for animals.
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#216681 - 02/08/10 07:05 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: Brandy's mom]  
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Fabulous, Greg, fabulous, see I knew you were a smart man. LOL Those lightbulb moments are priceless!!!!

I've never believed "quiet" is a good thing to reinforce. It's best to fill that attention tank before screaming becomes an issue and that's exactly what you are doing here.

Greg, I can look at my bird's behaviour and say they have me trained but the fact is I've set up the environment so that I win and my bird's win. Really what difference does it make. There are some people who call all treats a bribe. They CAN be a bribe but depending on how you utilize a treat/reward/consequence, what different does it make what you call it. Your bird gets a reward for a requested behaviour just like you get a pay check for going to work. I say don't look a gift horse in the mouth. LOL

You want peace and quiet, you are going to have to work for it and I'm so glad you showed up for the job!!! Well done, Greg!!!

Bev


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#216682 - 02/08/10 07:05 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: Brandy's mom]  
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GregM I deleted the post after because I realized after reading it how I sounded so negative.I want you to have a feeling that you are accomplishing not failing...I never meant any disrespect in posting it and deleting it but it wasn't sending the message I wanted either.


Jan

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#216684 - 02/08/10 07:22 PM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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Originally Posted By: GregM
I remember speaking to the 2nd owner who filled me in on his background. She casually mentioned that O was full feathered when she got him and that she had to move him to a remote room and cover him to deal with the screaming. Her girlfriend chimed in that she would come over during the day to visit and the bird would be covered."...leave him alone, he is quiet..." she would be told. (of course he was quiet, he was busy pulling feathers but that is not the point) LEAVE HIM ALONE, HE IS QUIET! The same thing I have been doing...


That poor bird. It is no wonder he is so insecure. You have made a discovery that many never seem to make and you should be proud of that.


Whoever coined the term "bird brain" was probably projecting.
#216705 - 02/09/10 02:19 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: ZazuSally]  
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I came home this evening and after entering and shutting off the alarm I heard only the dogs barking...no screaming? I decided to be proactive and immediately began caling out to her "Hello Pretty Bird" etc...and he immediatley began to talk, jabber and whistle...no screams...

I kept him engaged with talking and whistles while I took off my coat, put down my stuff, took care of the dogs, etc...she waited in the cage with not a scream...I swear it was like a Twilight Zone episode...

I then took them out and made a fuss...he was pretty patient while I prepared thier dinner...they both ate well and then he was mellow and just hung out in the cage opening (door opened0 during dinner and them later on the tree when I cleand up cages...

I swear I can count on both hands the number of screams the entire evening...and they were all singles...like just calling out to me...no rapid fire assaults...he is on my left thigh as I type contently grinding his beak...

I wonder what effect the chamomille tea may have had as I keep it in his cage water at an increased 70/30 percent water to tea...

I know its just tonite, but what an improvement...pinch me...

#216706 - 02/09/10 02:23 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: Brandy's mom]  
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Originally Posted By: Brandy's mom
Greg, please forgive me, but I must chuckle here!! You remind me of my husband.....he over engineers EVERYTHING! I'm happy to see the simplicity of ABA is surfacing. Good NO, EXCELLENT Job!


I have been accused of overthinking things in the past... frown

#216707 - 02/09/10 02:25 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: Janny]  
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Originally Posted By: Janny
GregM I deleted the post after because I realized after reading it how I sounded so negative.I want you to have a feeling that you are accomplishing not failing...I never meant any disrespect in posting it and deleting it but it wasn't sending the message I wanted either.


No harm, no foul...I woudl have responded but the Super Bowl was starting... smile

Sorry for the triple post...thank you all for your genuine concern for O...

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o93/GregM06/Atplay.jpg

Lets see what tomorrow will bring...

Last edited by GregM; 02/09/10 02:27 AM.
#216709 - 02/09/10 03:00 AM Re: OPHELIA [Re: GregM]  
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Why don't you stop the tea, Greg while continuing what you are doing? I think you will be pleasantly surprised. How long have you been giving him the tea? Seriously, I don't think it's the tea.

I am not surprised that the screaming has lessened if it was your attention he was after in the first place.

Bev

Last edited by ZazuSally; 02/09/10 03:01 AM. Reason: added something

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