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#215271 - 01/15/10 08:58 PM Euthanasia...  
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Meegsmom Offline
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A quote from an email we received:

"This bird has been in so many homes and the last one kept him in a cockatiel cage - he must weight at least 1200 grams and is just huge. He has plucking problems and tries to bite any man that goes near him, we thought we were rescuing him but hes gotten worse. He has not been out of his cage for months because of the aggressive attitude. We can't take this anymore and want you to come and get him. Maybe the best thing for this poor bird is to just be put to sleep and end his misery"

The bird in question is a 9 - 10 year old U2 - what another sad situation that we are being asked to help with..

I am not surprised at his comment about putting the bird to sleep and when we get birds in that have huge medical issues, the thought does cross my mind - maybe its better to let them leave this life that they never asked to be born into, but what about those with really negative behavior....

I haven't really seen a topic like this discussed and would like to share your thoughts..severe pluckers/mutilators and major behavioral issues - is there ever grounds for euthanasia and who should decide?
I know our vet will not euthanize an animal just because the owner says they want it put down, if there is no medical reason for it to be done, they won't do it, being bit or moving away is not grounds enough.
Undomesticated wolves - wild animals - are put down if they attack anything or anyone - hybrids - 1/2 dog 1/2 wolf are put down if they attack - the list goes on...
We have undomesticated parrots - cockatoos being by far the most unpredictable species of them all - attacking and seriously hurting people, only to be rehomed - they attack - rehomed again - attacking not only the owners, but also the other animals/birds in the home - rehomed/sold again - and the cycle continues..
In the domesticated side of cats/dogs an overly aggressive dog - such as a pitbull who are know to be unpredictable, can/will/ and are put down at signs of aggression or put into treatment - the life span is nowhere near that of a parrot, so they have a few years of rehabilitation and settle in somewhere and live out their life for another 5 - 10 yrs.
Here we have parrots that can take years upon years of rehabilitation just to learn "how" to be a bird and "how" to live with humans - and than spend another 50 plus years hoping that wherever they may end up will know what to do for them if the owner should die/move away or give it up for various reasons..
Is this to controversial of a subject?

#215274 - 01/15/10 09:40 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I've had discussions about this topic with other volunteers at the rescue where I volunteer.

Sadly, I truly believe that the time is coming, sooner rather than later, where birds will be euthanized for space, just like dogs and cats are now. And it just breaks my heart.

More and more birds keep being bred, but since most people are ill-equipped to live with a bird, they find their way to shelters and rescues. Most rescues I know of are full with waiting lists. Most of the volunteers at the rescue where I volunteer cannot take any more birds in -- we're at our limits. And these are the homes where many of the "hard-to-adopt" birds would go.

Add in parrots' long life spans, and it just gets really depressing. My husband and I have six parrots. We are at our limit. Their ages are 8, 15, 5, 22, 12, and 8. We're in our early 30s. There's a good chance that 5 of them (my budgie is 5 and they have shorter lifespans) could be with my husband and me into retirement, which means, unless circumstances change, we won't be adding any new birds to our house.

Once we get to the point of euthanizing for space/resource limitations, I think it makes sense that those are the most tortured -- or have the least likelihood of finding some semblance of happiness in a pet home -- should be euthanized before those that are considered adoptable. Basically the same system that's in place now for dogs and cats.

It's really tough and sad to think about. Of my 6, at least 3 would have been euthanized under a blanket mutilation/severe aggression policy. Yet, in our house, they've found a kind of happiness. I believe that the vast majority of birds can find a kind of happiness in the right home; the problem is there is a dearth of "the right kind of home" when compared to the birds looking to find one.

There definitely are no easy answers.

#215279 - 01/15/10 10:25 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Beeps]  
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I do not believe any bird should be euthanized because of a behavioural issue. People euthanize because the bird is a problem to them and they can't handle it.

May I submit as evidence - Noelle.


I rest my case.

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#215281 - 01/15/10 11:01 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
I do not believe any bird should be euthanized because of a behavioural issue. People euthanize because the bird is a problem to them and they can't handle it.
Bev


The stark realism of this topic is disturbing...I agree that so many just need a home with someone who can give them the time and understanding they need...but how many can you house? There are always more...

I have befriended an adult Bare Eye in a local pet store...such a nice bird...breaks my heart...I stop in and play with her regularly...bring her Toys and nuts...As with all adult birds that have been in a store (more than one) for too long she is a little complicated but warmed up to me quickly...the idiot kids that work in the store consider her vicious and treat her accordingly...when I asked about her age the young woman at the counter volunteered to show me a certificate...APRIL 2007! This poor thing was hatched in April 2007 and has been in more than one pet store for nearly 2 years and 9 months...and if they do not sell her they will ship her back to a "warehouse" and then send her to another store...she just needs to get out of the store(s) and into a home...I keep saying walk away , Greg, walk away...

Because thanks to this forum I now know for every one that is "saved" there are hundreds, or thousands, that still need homes...ignorance is bliss and sometimes I wish I still was...

#215282 - 01/15/10 11:36 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Quote:
Is this to controversial of a subject?


I don't think so! Have you tried a search for "euthanasia" in this Philosophy Forum? We have beat this subject to death. Euthanasia is a fact of life and as we get more and more parrots, more and more will be euthanized.

Better off dead!

Parrot Euthanasia - Soon Common?

Euthanasia

A Vet's Perspective

#215283 - 01/16/10 12:37 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Charlie]  
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Yes, I agree that it is a very disturbing reality - more and more birds are being euthanised every year because their caretakers are not equipped to deal with their behavior issues.

Case in point. Not too long ago, an SOS email came to the sanctuary, which had been mass-mailed to many other rescues within a 3 state radius. The problem? A biting U2 that had been in it's current home for 10 years. The email was sent by it's caretaker mid-week, stating that if she did not find a home for the bird within 2 days, she would euthanize it. And yes, she would euthanize it - she was (of all things) a vet! mad

Luckily for the bird, a rescue organization in Maryland was able to step up to the plate immediately and take the bird in, so his life was spared.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215284 - 01/16/10 12:38 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Charlie]  
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Should we euthanize all the unwanted children in the world? Dogs, cats, rabbits, etc.? We are the problem and we should be disgusted with ourselves. I have always believed that as long as any healthy animal is being euthanized, we should stop breeding any animal. We are such an arrogant species. We can't even stop children from being sold.

But the battle to stop it has to begin somewhere. And I know there are not enough good bird homes out there and I also know birds ARE being euthanized. I also know behavioural issues can be changed and that is 100 % based on science. What irritates the hell out of me is people really don't want to take the time to learn how to deal with these issues, to change/modify them. Whatever happened to responsibility? I have days where I think how different my life would be without my birds. I could travel, my apartment would be clean all the time, I'd have money, blah, blah, blah but I owe my birds more than that. They have gotten me through the worst times of my life, death of my mother, father, brother, sister, friends, cancer, etc. I am a better person because of them. I feel sorry for the people who will never get to see that.


Bev

PS: I know, I know, I'm supposed to be cleaning cages.


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#215285 - 01/16/10 12:39 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Charlie]  
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Sorry, I actually didn't do a search - I posted this because of the situation before us and the fact that someone actually said those words to me. Very interesting articles - thank you for the links.

Yes, it probably has been beaten to death, just like trying to educate people on purchasing chicks from breeders/petstores, and the words of advice on "not petting your cockatoo" and on and on, everything is being beaten to death as you say, and as the years go by, a new group of bird owners emerges and the questions/concerns start over again, repetition is boring, but at times its necessary to repeat certain things, and as the economy is hitting ALOT of people - its a reality for many.

Euthanasia for medical issues is a whole other thing compared to a bird with severe emotional/behavioral issues.

We all like to think that "we" are the perfect home for this messed up bird - "we" know exactly what to do - "we" have all the answers and will help them to stop biting/screaming/mutilating - fill in the blanks..

But, the sad realization here is that as the years go by - there are more and more birds and less and less places for them to go - the hundred rescues that were 1/2 empty in 2005 are now overflowing and simply can't take anymore - so those that cannot find suitable homes with the "perfect" human, end up shuffled over and over and over - the behaviors begin as a result - how many years do they have to be shuffled around before they find that "perfect" someone who can actually help them, and what if they never do..

#215288 - 01/16/10 01:02 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Anna, that's why ABA is so important. What I really don't get is why they (and you know who I mean) need to make it so complicated when it really isn't. We've come a long way in the last 6 years but we sure have a long way to go. The fact is parrots don't make good pets and most of us sure as hell don't make good caregivers for them.

As long as there is a dollar to be made, people will never stop breeding them but we can sure as hell try to stop as many people as we can from buying them.

Bev


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#215289 - 01/16/10 01:08 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I know Anna and it is a harsh reality isn't it...I wish I knew what to answer but you are right...I think in each birds case or each animal careful consideration as to "quality of life" is what comes into the evaluation.Unfortunately it is a human that has to make that call and there is never a guarentee that any bird in anyone's care is going to be "cured,helped,changed or rehabilitated" but it is a nice dream.

I guess some birds may be better off with a helping hand to help them cross over than being in pain day in and day out ripping their bodies apart without any relief from that.It would be a hard call to make but I also believe that most Specialized Vets in practice would be able to guide that answer along.I trust my vet enough that if she suggested that it was "time" then I would consider what she is saying to me.It is one of those things that there is no cut and dry answer...



Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#215291 - 01/16/10 01:42 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janny]  
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Another well written article on the subject:

The Ethics of Euthanasia


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215293 - 01/16/10 02:31 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: EchosMom]  
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From Echosmom's post:

Quote:
The only ethical reason for the termination of life in a companion animal is the animal's suffering…not the owners. If a bird has a terminal illness with no ready options, and it is in pain, euthanasia is appropriate. If a bird has a contagious and terminal illness for which there is no cure and/or inoculation, and which may infect an entire flock, euthanasia is arguably a choice. But for plucking, for "screaming," even for aggressive behavior, death for the animal must cease to be an option.


Yes!

I will comment further later if anyone is interested. Oh, hell, even if they aren't.


Whoever coined the term "bird brain" was probably projecting.
#215295 - 01/16/10 02:35 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: JBryan]  
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I agree JB. I was also moved by the author's closing words:

Quote:
Euthanasia means "easy death". While it should be used to humanely end suffering of our beloved companions, it should stop being "easy" for us.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215296 - 01/16/10 02:47 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: EchosMom]  
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Exactly.


Whoever coined the term "bird brain" was probably projecting.
#215328 - 01/16/10 07:39 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: JBryan]  
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I was going to leave this thread alone but need to clarify something about the situation Meegsmom is asking about...

Canada is a little different when it comes to rescues etc. We have one Sanctuary that I know of on the West Coast.At some point there was question to what would happen to all those birds because there was no donations or support for this place to stay running. Yeah there is fundraising but there is not allot of help for places like this in Canada.

There are only 2 good running rescues that I know of and one of those two are not able to take in any more birds at this time because their building was sold on them and they are managing on fostering their birds at this time. They are working on fundraisers to raise money for a new building but who knows how long that will take.Meegsmom is filling up quite fast and as there are not many adoptive homes that are able to take in a bird with high needs that leaves her full at this time.There is also the fact that funds are just not there to keep them afloat really either.Yeah there is fundraising but...people are not that generous around Canada when they have a mindset that they have their own homes to worry about and that is the mindset of most people...they also don't realize that the cost of vet care is unreal around here and no where near as advances as the USA.Dianne Dwyer from what I understand has made it known she isn't able to take in more birds either and although if absolutely necessary will take in a special case if it is the very last hope or option but isn't able to readily take on any more.

So now what...the resources are just not there to help these rescues function and stay afloat so at some point something has to give but what...If I could I would take in more birds but I don't have the time or space for any more and I can't even try to kid myself into thinking I can. I can outreach with new people to educate them into being a good prospect for adopting and I try to do that.

So now you have a bird that is in the worst shape...I am going to use someone like Mango for example that is going to cost a rescue at LEAST $1000.00 (and that will just be to run blood work and dress the wound likely no surgery yet)to get back on track and treated for the mutilation.So he gets the dressing changed once a week at least and then eventually has to go for surgical debribing. That is going to cost approx another $1000.00.His adoption fee is only $600.00. There is no government funding to help pay for this and the vets do what they can to help but can only knock off so much off the bill too.So now he is in the rescue and recovering and MM wakes up to find he has torn off the dressing and has ripped open his chest again and worse. Takes him back in...this can go on for months and months and no changes.

He gets into a foster home or potential adoptive home. Same thing he tears open his chest again. Maybe he can be helped maybe not. Not all birds will stop.What is the best thing for him in this case.Is it best for a rescue to go bankrupt trying to help him.Is it best for a rescue to say it is full and can not take him on and let him keep doing this to himself in his home that he is suffering in...

I would like to think that Anna,myself,Bev...all of us could change this in our home but it isn't always going to happen. A cockatoo like Noelle gives us much hope that it can but not all birds are Noelle and there isn't always a home like Janet's available for a bird like Mango.

So what is best for Mango????Should a person let him go on years and years living in a cone unable to really do allot just to give him a break from the cone and have him rip himself open again.Or would it be best for him to let him have an "easy death".

Maybe it isn't the way to look at it and I hate to think of any bird loosing it's life but when a person is facing a situation and decision like this one I think minds need to stay open and look at the bigger picture. Just think of the money that has been spent on one bird and how many lives it could have saved in the process.I am not trying to put a value on one birds life over another either...I will say again...I don't want to see ANY bird die because of things us humans did to them.I really don't but this is just a way to look at everything involved and help understand the questions being faced in this time.

I am not saying all mutilating birds should be put down without trying to help them. I am not saying that at all. I am just trying to let you see what a rescue facility has to face and the decisions they make may be judged cruel when really there might not be another option.

When you are dealing with aggression...no I don't think euthenasia is the answer. Time and patience and love can go a very long way and so will understanding.Plucking...no I can't imagine because that is superficial and a bird can live 100 years plucking it's feathers out...but each case of a bird mutilating (which can be lifelong in some cases) needs to be looked at independantly and not lumped in to say it can be changed.It may not be changed.

It is true that humane society facilities are euthenising weekly many cats and dogs that are very potential companions in the right home but they have really no other choice but to eventually make a decision to put them to rest to make room for others.They can not keep one dog for 5 years waiting for the right home to come along.Unfortunately I believe rescues for birds are getting a harsh reality that this is what it will come to for birds as well.


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#215332 - 01/16/10 07:54 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janny]  
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Ok, I'm confused. I re-read Meegsmom's initial post. This wasn't about Anna or her rescue. Did I miss something along the way?

Last edited by EchosMom; 01/16/10 07:56 PM. Reason: deleted part

Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215333 - 01/16/10 08:00 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: EchosMom]  
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The thread was started by Anna when she got an email from someone through her rescue...then it went in different directions after that.She was asking in theory and it was painted with a very broad brush that no bird unless terminally ill should be euthenised.I am just painting another way to look at things that is all. wink

I am just using her rescue for example as well as the others to help understand where a rescue stands and what a rescue here faces and not necessarily talking about an owner of a bird but rather what a rescue faces.I think that is what Anna is asking about anyway.No one is actually saying Mango or any other bird needs to be put to rest here. I was just using them for example is all.

Last edited by Janny; 01/16/10 08:20 PM.

Jan

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#215341 - 01/16/10 08:22 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janny]  
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Lord knows no one person, or organization can save them all - and no one situation is exactly the same. Matt and I have had many talks about how difficult it is when there are so many birds in need.

Rescue is a tough, tough job, that's for sure.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215342 - 01/16/10 08:25 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janny]  
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I think your examples also point to a scenario in which tropical birds have less of a chance the further they get from their natural temperate zone. As they are moved into colder climates:
  • There are less avian veterinarians, not that people would use them.
  • There are less quality rescues.
  • Harsher environments mean more stress on tropical birds.

But, as you move into more temperate latitudes:
  • The number of birds increase.
  • The number of avian vets increase, not that people would use them.
  • The number of legitimate rescues increase.

So it boils down to scale because all the rescues are busting at the seams, the few up north and the many down south. The only difference I can see is that birds in cold climates will suffer the most, whether sick or not, because it is an alien environment to them and they cannot spend near enough time in quality light and air.

Most vets, and rescues, will now say that parrot euthanasia is here, and here to stay.

#215349 - 01/16/10 08:44 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Charlie]  
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Excellent points Charlie.

Quote:
Most vets, and rescues, will now say that parrot euthanasia is here, and here to stay.


Absolutely! As a matter of fact, my AV's personal birds are ones that were brought to him to be, needlessly euthanized.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215383 - 01/17/10 05:10 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: EchosMom]  
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Not a topic for the faint of heart. I continue to preach adoption to everyone I know (and some that I love) and I am talking dogs as well. Some people can just not 'get' that a puppy or a young bird who is bred is really the problem and that they should adopt rather than contributing to the problem.

It is so difficult to see people do these things and let other animals be euthanized...all for the sake of 'what'? That is my problem...I just don't get it. Once you have been educated and you understand, how can you do it? It is unbelievably hurtful to me.


Karen, Lucy (U2), BooBoo (CAG),Pina (BCC),Willie (Cockatiel),
Melody, Sonata, Penny & Dory(dogs)
#215411 - 01/17/10 09:21 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Lucy's Mom]  
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I appreciate the views/opinions on a very touchy subject - and I want to clarify a few things as I have received some emails from members of the board voicing some concern.

First off - I have not taken offense to any comments made but do need to elaborate on one in regards to this being a "repetitive" subject.

Many topics on this board and others are very repetitive and annoying - but - is that not the purpose and goal of educating people? I can't imagine going into the vet with my bird and asking a question or two only to be told "Heres a pamphlet and some links, go read about it, I'm tired - I spend the entire day answering those exact questions already" - what a jaw dropper that would be.

When people go to message boards, they are looking for answers/help - they may or may not know how to use the search function and just maybe they want to "talk" to someone on the board who does have experience and they want some advice.

I see the same questions asked over and over and alot of the same advice - but - some is different - and the advice is given based on first hand experience 90% of the time. You can have 3 people with screaming toos - get 3 different "remedies" if you will and find out later that all three had different reactions - one did well with ABA - one did well with more socializing and one did well just being given the opportunity to chew as much wood as their little heart desires..

When we did the expo last year, we had people come to our table, look at the photos, read the material and reply "OMG, I never knew thats what went on in bird mills" and they ask questions about breeding and what really goes on and where DO those birds in petland come from - you spend 1/2 an hour telling them and providing "factual" information and they walk away saying they will NEVER buy from a petstore - they've been educated.

Not 5 minutes later another person comes over and looks and reads and tells you they just bought a bird from a breeder and why is that bad? You explain the downside of breeding and why its bad - after another 1/2 hour they walk away having been educated and feeling like crap for what they did, but now realizing they have a lifelong responsibility and will do the best they can. Guess what, 10 mins later another person walks over and we are now repeating "exactly" what we just told the first two - and on it goes, for two straight days.

That is the purpose of education - to repeat over and over and over again and pray that your message is getting through and making a difference.

If a message board already has all the answers to every question, why is it not locked and turned into a 'read only' site - why keep it running - the answer is simple - because although repetitious - if one out of 10 people who read it change their mind about buying a bird, it can make a world of difference - and if that one person who did purchase a bird now has a world of trouble on their hands and is ready to rehome it/sell it/euthanize it, coming here could very easily save that birds life.

I have no disrespect for anyone and can fully understand the annoyance of repeating oneself, but I also know how important it is.

And lastly - for those who asked me about Mango and the U2, there is no thought of euthanizing either one of them unless medical tests reveal it necessary - the comment was not made by me, but by the current owner of the U2 based on the aggressive behavior, and just maybe he was testing us to see how we would respond.

We have had an offer from someone to foster the U2 if needed and we will decide that when we know the fate of the M2 - the M2 is going to need some major medical care and alot of our attention, a foster for the U2 may be the best solution for now - again - we wont'know until we hear back.

We believe in the "right to life" and have gone above and beyond what many would have in the lives of the rescues - the birds handed over to us from the SPCA were set to be euthanized due to both medical and behavior issues - we allowed them the second chance to recover and work with them in all areas - we have Peaches the lovebird - surgery to remove embedded string in her leg, follicular cysts/folliculitis and she really looks crappy with her bare back and her lumps here and there and multiple feathers out of one follicle(still gorgeous to me!) - but is she happy? I would bet my life on it - she can run/hop and 'glide' - loves playing with the tiels - eats well and loves people - shes a total joy - she was on deaths door and we could have easily opened that door, but we chose not to - and while very expensive, she now has the quality of life she deserves - or at least what can be provided for her inside the walls of her prison - her cage...

Euthansia is a very real solution to many people and once again, I was surprised by something that really never crossed my mind until it was brought up to me and it still leaves alot of questions after this dialogue - again - when it relates to behavior, where do you cross that line and let them go, when drugs are needed just to keep them somewhat calm and they spend their life dozed up on a perch? Is that a happy bird? Is that a quality of life or just a life..

A tough question and not many people can answer it honestly until they are in that position - we all have our opinions which I am glad we can share - as the population increases and more bird stores start changing the title from "parrots" to "exotic birds" to get customers in the door, we will continue to have the rescues/sanctuaries fill up - a horribly sad reality - and God forbid what happens when the rescues are full up....

#215413 - 01/17/10 09:32 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Thanks for clearing things up Anna...as I said yesterday I was very confused at the direction this thread seemed to be taking.

Now, about ABA. It works and anyone that has tried it and believes otherwise isn't doing it properly and/or is not giving it enough time. It's not an easy process, as a matter of fact it takes ALOT of time, work and patience. And since behavior is always changing, what works today, may not work tomorrow. BUT, applied correctly, ABA does reduce unwanted behaviors by replacing them with more suitable behaviors that promote successful companionship. Unfortunately many people (not meaning anyone in particular) are too quick to dismiss it and quite frankly just don't give it a chance. Most people want a quick fix, and that is one thing that ABA isn't.

<Stepping off the soapbox now>


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215416 - 01/17/10 09:43 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I am sorry for using Mango and the U2 for example. I wasn't trying to imply that either of the two birds were going to be etuhenised by Anna or her rescue. She does go beyond for birds that are brought into her rescue. I guess I should have used any old names for bird one and bird two.

I also think it needs to be said that what a rescue facility faces and what the average person faces are two different senario's in the bigger picture.

I know when I was faced with deciding euthenasia or a life of more medication without much progress for Gabby when he was seizuring I had to do what was best for him and not myself. The medication made him so weak and so out of sorts...it was the max dose he was taking for his medications and still having many seizures at a time...I could not let him live like that any more.It is a tough call and of course I had guilt after making it but at the same time I know I did everything I could try and help him before making that decision. Did he have good days...yes he sure did.But the bad days were by far beyond the good days. When you watch them try to go and play and reach out with their beak for a toy and fall off a perch and scare the crap out of themself and not have enough energy to climb back up again...that is not a life IMO. It wasn't like that every day for him but the magority of time it was.

I really have not honestly been put in a situation where I had to medicate a bird for aggression as of yet. I was lucky that the one who came in here that aggressive learned to trust over time. I don't know when or how I would handle that until I am facing that situation.


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#215417 - 01/17/10 10:13 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janny]  
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Originally Posted By: Janny
I really have not honestly been put in a situation where I had to medicate a bird for aggression as of yet. I was lucky that the one who came in here that aggressive learned to trust over time. I don't know when or how I would handle that until I am facing that situation.


That's just it Janny. With ABA in your tool box there is no reason to treat a bird with antipsychotic medication to control aggression. And NO, you didn't get lucky Janny. Your bird learned to trust over time, because you EARNED it's trust, by giving choices - the foundation of ABA.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215418 - 01/17/10 10:40 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: EchosMom]  
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Very well said, EM, very well said.


Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#215433 - 01/18/10 01:54 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Greetings!

I'm MeegsDad (if you will, more like Lucky'sDad!)

I just wanted to tell you all a little story about one of our birds.

Lope (you say his name low-pay) is a red-fronted Amazon parrot. He is about 65 years old, and came to us in very poor health. You see, he was surrendered to the Calgary Humane Society. He had a pretty sever scissor beak, his tail feathers had been broken off, and he had started to shred his breast feathers. To top it off, he was fairly aggressive with all who tried to interact with him, and was deemed unfit for adoption. Because of this, he was scheduled for euthanasia. Thankfully he was given to Birdline, and things are looking great for Lope. His scissor beak is almost gone (we give him wood to chew on), he has been going through a molt and the new feathers look great (we feed him harrisons pellets and fresh fruit and veg every day) and behavior? Well, he still does not tolerate most folks, but he sure loves me! I am his best bud in the universe, and together we are happy!

The point of this story? Well, I don't believe in killing a bird unless it's mortally wounded or terminally ill and in pain. Otherwise I think that time and love can cure all problems. We at Birdline have proven that over and over....

#215437 - 01/18/10 04:32 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Silver Paladin]  
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I like the point of the story!! wink


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215445 - 01/18/10 03:51 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Silver Paladin]  
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Originally Posted By: Silver Paladin
Well, I don't believe in killing a bird unless it's mortally wounded or terminally ill and in pain. Otherwise I think that time and love can cure all problems. We at Birdline have proven that over and over....


Amen.

If aggression gets a bird killed Bo (BFA) would have been gone....but for the last five months he's asked for head scratches. (JMO)


Man has turned Earth into a hell for animals.
Arthur Schopenhauer
#226140 - 10/13/10 06:55 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janny]  
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As long as folks are still questioning, perhaps the topic has not been over discussed. We have made the choice for KiwiU2 because we are more than cognizant of what she would face in another situation. Mytoos clearly shows the tragedies so many cockatoos face when left to rescues, rehomed if that is even an option for them, or given or sold for breeding. We care enough about this creature that we would not want her to suffer in any way, and rehoming just has too many variables to make it part of the equation. We took her in, we are responsible. Kiwi will never be a 'passed around' bird whose future care and welfare is left to chance.

We have discussed with her vet several times what we have decided for Kiwi when we can no longer care for her. We adopted this bird with the promise we wouldn't ever give her to a breeder, and we would give her the best life possible. We will fulfill that promise. We also don't feel overburdened rescues are an option. And like Charlie, we would never have another cockatoo.

Meanwhile, KiwiU2 will have a life full of love, top quality care, socialization, adventure, experiences, and purpose. Her purpose has become education through her socializing about the plight of large parrots. She is an ambassador for mytoos.com. She has been exposed to literally thousands of people to whom her message through me and her wonderful patience with humans has been relayed. She truly deserves the best decisions we can make for her in this 'human' world which we know so much better than she. She will not suffer one iota more in her life than what she must endure now, being a captive bird. We won't take that chance. We made the choice to take responsibility for her life and well being, and we are responsible for even the hard choices that will come. We will have no guilt. Great loss, yes, but no guilt.

Each person will have a different approach to end of life choices. Emotion should have no place in that process. Each situation is different, and each pet owner should come the conclusions that they can live with. No one should feel guilty for their reasoning process.

I think it is necessary and helpful to keep these discussions alive and non judgmental. Life ending is a reality for human and animal alike. Facing the topic, and understanding what your feelings are about euthanasia before you are confronted with the decision of 'what to do', is helpful. Thank you mytoos.

#226141 - 10/13/10 09:35 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janie]  
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Well this is my opinion on Euthenasia....

It comes down to quality of life vs quantity of life.No one person can give a black or white answer as to whether or not an animal should or shouldn't be euthenized but....

To put down a perfectly healthy cockatoo or any other animal is totally unacceptable just because you think no one else can take as good of care of it.That IMHO is unreasonable.Even if the said animal has behavior issues or health issues there are people out there that can learn and do as good of job taking care of them with the proper coaching and guidance.It is your responsibility to ensure that,if you can.

I am going to use one of my own birds for example even though he is no longer with me.Gabby was my "heart bird" and very special to me.He was very phobic but over a few years over came his phobias and became a rather "class clown" for anyone. He then started to have his seizures. Over this time I was still his only person and I worried.Who on earth could I find to give him his meds twice a day and comfort him during his seizures like I did if I was no longer here to do it.Well...he then accepted my niece as well and she totally adored him.It was my job to assist her in what needed to be done for him and give her ALL the information including expenses involved and time.She agreed to take on his caregiving responsibilities should something happen to me.I trusted she would have done this just as well as I had.He was a special needs and took allot of time and care but I know she would have done that because of our relationship and she knew what he meant to me.Unfortunately Gabby's end came prematurely because his health deteriorated quite fast.Again it was quality of life vs quantity.It wasn't because I could no longer care for him or be around to do it.

As for my other birds...I have taken much time and care into determining where they go and trust that my choice is a good one.I know the rescue I have chosen to entrust my birds too will do the best they can for my flock.Do I think they should be euthenized because they may end up in a couple more homes...no.The reality is they likely will just like how they ended up with me.But instead of coming to me and me seeing them happy again should they have been put down instead of coming here....no.They deserve a chance just like every other living being.

If you search out a good rescue there is no doubt that that bird would be taken care of very well.A rescue will ensure it is a good match to the person who adopts your companion and keeps in contact with that person.As long as you keep a journal of the care and needs of that cockatoo or parrot things should go smoothly.I have a journal of each of my birds care and unique things they like and get to help the future caregiver.

Quote:
Mytoos clearly shows the tragedies so many cockatoos face when left to rescues, rehomed if that is even an option for them, or given or sold for breeding.


Maybe we should clear this up...mytoos promotes that should you be faced with needing to rehome your birds for whatever reason that you seek out a "good rescue".We don't say how tragic it is should they end up in rescue and compare that to a bird being sold and end up in a breeding program.In the statement above that may be your opinion but not the opinion mytoos sends.


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#226143 - 10/13/10 10:44 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janny]  
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Jan -

That was so well said, it made tears come to my eyes. Thanks!


Karen, Lucy (U2), BooBoo (CAG),Pina (BCC),Willie (Cockatiel),
Melody, Sonata, Penny & Dory(dogs)
#226156 - 10/14/10 06:17 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Lucy's Mom]  
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I don't, not for one minute believe that there is no one out there that can provide for my birds just as competently as I can....even better for that matter.

It is our responsibility to make provisions for our companions future, just as it is our responsibiity to do so for our children, or an aging parent in the event that we are no longer able to care for them.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#226635 - 11/03/10 01:26 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: EchosMom]  
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my last utoo,was to be put down,if i didn't take him,because he is dangerous! well maybe to men....but he loves the girls and me and hubby are working on the "man" thing sad sad things in this world

#236554 - 08/11/11 02:43 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: birdladyofbarton]  
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It's a sad reality but, like so many others have said for me its a quality of life thing along with does the bird still want to live?

For example, the bird may be severely disabled, chronically ill or etc but does, despite all of that, he/she still seem happy and energetic? Does he still want to live?
My tiel struggled for years with giardia and a whole host of secondary infections---and it's cost me easily a few thousand dollars and the long-term probiotics and constant screening he'll require after the damage of so many meds and the parasite itself isn't necessarily cheap---but he is happy and active, wants to live. So I would never consider it even if he had flare-ups and very got ill again.

But if I had a bird that was constantly in pain, mutilating and depressed, not able to perch or play or etc...then a humane release would be the option.

#236620 - 08/12/11 02:42 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: CrimsonBeak]  
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I had to face this option a few years ago when my Luna got desperately ill.

(I think the thread is still around here somewhere)

For the first few days it looked hopeless...she was emaciated, could barely lift her little head up, and that little spark in her eyes was fading.

Fortunately, God was so good and our vet an angel, she made a complete recovery over the next few weeks.

But I had made the decision in my mind to say goodbye to my girl if she continued to decline. I couldnt see her like that and not put her peacefully to sleep if she didnt improve.

Now...as far as putting down a bird because its "dangerous" or someone just doesnt want the bird....totally unacceptable.
I dont care how dangerous the bird is...there are ALWAYS other options. Rescues...good, reliable zoos...rehoming. If you don't want to take the time to look into other options for the bird YOU decided to take...then you should never have taken it in the first place. These are not "pets." They are companions in our lives (who never asked to be put there in the first place btw), and we have a responsibility to them.

#240349 - 12/15/11 06:22 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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This has been an interesting thread to read, the Too I recently took in was described to me in almost identical terms as the opening email here.
I just want to add, that the people who made the decisions about this Too were pretty set on their decision that the best option was to euth him, they believed an appropriate home was an impossibilty. It took quite a bit of explanation on my part to convince them otherwise.
They had a vet convinced of their decision as well.

My point is; often times people don't know What they don't know.

To think this Too had his fate seeled by uneducated or worse , arrogantly uneducated people is abhorable.
This bird has been here long enough for me to know that euthing him was far from the right answer, but more of a convenience for the people involved.

#240380 - 12/16/11 10:55 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Just my opinion on the matter. If a bird, or any other animal for that matter, is suffering from physical afflictions and illnesses that are making that creature's life one of only pain and suffering, with little or no hope of cure and/or recovery, and only holds the promise of a lingering death, euthanasia is certainly a reasonable and humane course of action. That being said, I would then add that as a species, we "humans" have a rather ignoble history regarding our relationship and treatment to those animals we fancy for "pets". We demand of them to bend to our whims and wishes, and all too often, unrealistic expectations for their demeanor and behavior; demands that go far beyond reasonable training and socialization. How arrogant, and egocentric it is that when we disregard their primal needs, heap on abuse and poor care, that we then want to destroy the life form that reacted with hostility and negativity to that experience. As previously stated in this thread, it is our responsibility to see that our companions are well cared for while we are with them, and make every effort to provide for them when we are no longer here to do so ourselves.

John

#240383 - 12/16/11 11:31 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Duringmy 30 years on this eath i have seen many ofmy pets/partners put down.It started with a 6 week old puppy with parvo. Seeing the life leave his eyes is a memory i will never forget.I was only 7 at the time but i learned that all live means more than i could understand.
At that point and time i knew i would never let another pet suffer. I made sure that any that was in my house hold got vet care, If my parents couldn't affordit i got odd jobs.
Once i was old enough to hold a real job i started saving horses. I buried 3 very old men that no one else wanted but me. They were old and could no longer win blues in the show ring or had injurys that had never been treated. To me they were gold.
Once i married and had two kids we moved to where i could no longer afford the board. I had to let my soul mate go. I had thought about putting him down because i was afraid he would be mistreated.I watched him running up the hill bucking and kicking because he loved life. I knew i couldn't be that selfish. I spent amonth hunting a home for him. He was worth $2000 but to the right home he went for $400 to cover the last months board.
Thats when my heart wanted a friend i could have in my home. Thats how my birds came to me.Over the years i have fostered the dangerous birds. That turned into sweet hearts with a understanding person. No pet/partner's life is so small that the choice to end it just because we are tired of dealing with it should ever be made.
If they are healthy and love life why would you chose to stop that? There is someone out there that is ment for that pet. It is our responsabilty to find them. To make sure they can provide what we couldn't.
Now if one of my babies gets sick and i have been threw everything humanly possible to help them, and they continue to get worst then yes it is time to stop the suffering.
Life no matter how small or large is stilllife. It may not be the same as yours or mine but it desrves a chance.

#240391 - 12/17/11 01:06 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I'm 63. I am on SSDI because I had a cancer recurrence and secondary tumors a couple of years ago. After a trip to ER and another long, miserable ambulance ride to a distant university hospital, I woke the next morning and saw the "treatment goals" board in my room: it said, "Goals: Pain management".

(Bear with me; I'm a human, and wordier than most cockatoos)
I listened to various prognoses, refused one "palliative treatment" option as unconscionable, agreed to another, spent a couple of weeks allowing my abdomen to be irradiated, and came home. . .well, to the place we were "camping out" in somebody else's basement because we no longer had a home of our own. I ate carefully. Nearly died from a reaction to medicine the first month. Heard doctors tell me that certain treatments were so painful that I ought to refuse them and just "go to sleep".

I don't want anyone except God saying when I die. Period. A lot of people prayed for me, and I decided it would be pretty stupid to just sit around waiting to kick the bucket, so I went bike riding. (coasted down the long hill to the farmers' market, then pedalled and trudged back up) Took four or five hours to do that trip, but by the time I got home, I knew I didn't have to just die because "they" said there was "no hope".

Now, I don't believe for a minute that this life is the only one I will have. I know the promise of Heaven, and trust the One who made it. And it appears to me (from where I stand, sit, or sprawl, depending on how I feel, and how the available sprawling susrfaces are) that those who "euthanize" an injurded or ill animal are believeing that there is "no hope" for that creature living, and living well.
There is always the element of "how much care can I afford to buy for, or give to, this creature?" We all have to think about this. I have had to consider this sometimes when deciding whether to keep an animal alive, or send him or her home the the Creator to be repaired/recreated to be whole and healthy. None of us lives in a vacuum; we all have other people to whom we are responsible for various things. HOWEVER. . .all that said, I have a feeling that when we as a society became convinced that "death is better than life" for some creatures, we opened the door to doing the same thing to (or "for") other human beings. "Kevork" is now a verb everyone in the US understands, whether we think it is a good thing or not. Suicide is no longer considered something to be prevented at every oipportunity. Right and wrong are becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish in medical crises, because we no longer believe that LIFE is simply better, bigger, greater, more, than death.
I have made life/death decisions occasionally, for animals I knew, because of the belief frame I have, had been placed in my responsibility. I have confessed that I was/am no longer able to fulfill the role God assigned me in their lives, and relinquished them, with tears, to Him. I can not, for the life of me, figure out how anyone without a solid relationship with the God Who Is can possibly claim to have that responsibility or right. The animals and birds are, we are told, in His care, and only if we can believe that fully, can we make any kind of wise or compassionate decision about them. But we dare not, we DARE NOT assume that we, or anyone, regardless of education or money, has the right or responsibility to make those decisions for us!

This may have little or nothing to do with "euthanizing" birds or animals, but it is a reflection of somebody who has been in a bed, listening to people urging her to make a suicide decision, either now or in the forseeable future. And I keep remembering Solomon's statement that "The righteous man regardeth (values, is involved in) the life of his beast, but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel". Is the "gift" of death one of those "tender mercies" that are cruel? I can't claim to be fully assured about this, but I suspect it might be. I have to be very, very careful. . .


Jody
#240405 - 12/17/11 03:56 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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jm47... I am so glad you are doing well. I so enjoy reading your posts... everytime I see your name I know I have something enjoyable to read. You have a great sense of humor and are truly a good person.


Mom to Annie B.,Molly,the Keet Family, Zeke the Pug, Ivan the Terrible, Edison and Einstein the Cats
#240419 - 12/17/11 06:55 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Ellen, I'm actually a very naughty person, in the process of being rebuilt into a good Image, but I'm glad you can see the work in process! It's an interesting journey, and I don't want to unnecessarily miss something, but I will be content to get Home, too.


Jody
#240453 - 12/19/11 12:42 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: jm47]  
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I didn't want to initially comment about this since it was initially intended to be about our companions not Humans but....

I have had the unfortunate experience of watching my family suffer from Cancer until their passing.My Great Grandmother,an Uncle and was a caregiver for 8 months to my Mother from the time she was diagnosed terminally ill with 3 Cancerous Brain Tumors(only expected to live 3 months but the last 5 were horrible agony to her) in inoperable places (brain stem being one).I watched my Great Grandmother have her dignity stripped from her as she suffered long months in a hospital bed getting many bed sores,unable to eat and her life being sustained by intravenous and meal replacement drinks. She begged us to let her die for months before she passed away suffering until her last breath.

Again I watched this very same thing with my Mother only I was her caregiver and her health proxy.I watched a women at the young age of 57 be stripped of her dignity and go from the most independent women I had ever met to crying the first time her youngest daughter (me) had to change her attend for the first time that she had been incontinent and soiled it.I watched her suffer with the most severe headaches and pain I had ever seen anyone go through in all my life.I watched this for 8 months and cried many times with her over this since she was not a person to accept help or ever take a hand out from someone.She was being slowly stripped day to day learning each day there were more and more limitations to what she could do until the day came that she passed away in my arms struggling for her last breaths and her body trembling from extreme pain that not even the strongest dose of morphine could control anymore.Her brain had so much swelling it was pressing the scull and no medications or treatments could help her.Watching your loved one go through that and begging you to help them knowing you can not because it is considered "murder" is the hardest thing you will ever have to live through.I can not judge those who would choose a humane way to go whether you want to call it suicide or "Human Euthanasia" after my experiences and have to be completely honest when I say "I will NEVER put a family member through that horror".

I have a living will made up and keep it on me at all times.I will not live hooked up to machines without chance of recovery.I have made my wishes very clear and I am to have comfort measures only no heroic measures in the event something should happen to me.I can not say if I was diagnosed terminally ill that I would not want a more peaceful passing than what I have seen my special family members go through.I may just have to take matters in my own hands if I am able to do so still.I believe the law around human assisted passing needs to be revisited since I believe if the person themselves is able to make the decision that should be respected and if it is family that has to make the decision it should be with sound arguments and agreed upon by the closest family in the event there is no cure or recovery.

If you think about this for a moment...if my dog was to run out and get hit by a car I have the right to decide that companions fate and either have that dog treated or put to rest.Why is it if a human is able to speak for themselves or if the family is watching them suffer intolerable pain they can not assist in making a decision to go just as peacefully?After what I have seen my family go through I know what I would want and people may think it is wrong and so be it...that is your belief but why should people dictate what everyone has to believe or do...if your not in agreement with it then make that stipulation clear to a health proxy and living will what your wishes are.But don't shackle the people who would prefer to go with dignity when there really is no cure at the end stages of their life.

Do I believe there has to be guidelines....yes.You can't just run out and euthanize someone for having bad hair.I believe it has to be a Dr assistance and you would need to plead your situation to a panel of people.There are ways to manage this so to not encourage people to just run out and make their family drop off.It's something that I have put allot of thought into because of the direction my life has taken over the years.


As far as companions go.I have seen and heard of many people that take a dog or cat out and shoot it because it is "untrainable". I don't agree with that.I have heard of people putting a companion to rest because they can't afford treatments in a young dog with hip problems.Something so treatable yet they have the choice to put it down.My sister was euthanizing her aged German Shepard dog that was blind deaf and not able to mobilize on his own anymore.While there the vet pulled her aside and showed her a dog that was there to be euthanized and ethically he could loose his license for what he did.It was a breeder that had brought the 6 month old Shepard in to have it put down because it had a slightly crooked from paw and because it was "damaged" it was useless to her.This vet let my sister take that dog home with her that day and he could be in allot of trouble for that.But just think about how easily people can do this and dis-guard of an imperfect line of dog that is perfectly happy and one of the best dogs I know.It disgusts me.Yet humans don't have any choice in how they choose to go really....

Just food for thought.No one person has to believe the way I do and I am sorry if this offends anyone.It truly is not meant too.Whatever your beliefs are they are your right and hold on to that.Don't be afraid to stand up for and fight for what you believe is right in your mind and your life.You are the one living the experience and you are the only one who can make decisions like this...bottom line is you should not be judged for what you believe is the right thing to do since no one is walking in your footsteps or experiencing things the way you are.You will know what you need to do when you are faced with making decisions about your companions.Having had to do it a couple of times it is not an easy decision to make and you will have doubts in your decision but you get past that with help of good friends and supports.

At this point I am having to make these decisions for one of my dogs.She has Heart Disease and has been diagnosed a year ago with Congestive Heart Failure.We are on the max doses of her medications and they are not sustaining her anymore and her disease is progressing.Our option as a final attempt to prolong things is to increase her one medication to the above therapeutic dose in attempts to shock the kidneys into taking the fluid off the chest and heart.It is not suggested that people do this but we would like to wait until after Christmas if she can be kept comfortable to our knowledge until then.Is it going to work...not sure.I have seen some improvements and her quality of life is still barely there.The prognosis is not looking good and the risk is her heart could stop at any time when it is fatigued and ready to do so.Do I want that to happen....not really.I have at this point make things the most comfortable for her as it can be.If things don't show any improvement by the next few day or so I will have to let her go.I can't not watch her struggle for every breath and know that she feels like she is drowning on land.It's unfair to her to spend her last days like that and it can go on for weeks like this.But weeks are about all we can even hope for if she has any relief as well from the medication change.It is going to be hard but we know it is the right decision as well.She is young....only 10 years old and after reading life expectancy for CHF in dogs they tend to live on average 4 months to a year after diagnosed and treated.So we have done well this past year and some...she has had some special treatment (spoiled rotten really).I just know it's not an easy thing to do....


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#240455 - 12/19/11 01:20 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I had to have my dog, Katie, put to sleep last year. She also had congestive heart failure. It was not fair to her to "keep her alive." It was very hard but I would do it again.

My mother had dementia for 10 years. I watched her turn from a beautiful, dynamic woman into a caricature. She would have been so embarrassed. I wished I had it in my power to give her a dignified death.


Mom to Annie B.,Molly,the Keet Family, Zeke the Pug, Ivan the Terrible, Edison and Einstein the Cats
#240460 - 12/19/11 08:51 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I lied. I'm no longer 63; forgot I turned 64. Wonder if I getting demented; used to have a very, very good memory.
One of the things about refusing to sit around waiting to die is that I will probably fall off my bike, or trip on the ice, or something, rather than fade away, but if not, I still have a refusal of certain medical "procedures" already made. If you forbid "them" from using the machines, you are within your own control. Once they get the gadgets hooked up, it's sort of difficult to get them turned off.

Not that my "dignity" matters all that much to me. Our family always says not to get "dignified" before age 60 (or was that 80?) anyhow. The value of a life is not pride, but love. If I want to look good to others, I'm proud. If I want to give, and manage to do so, I'm loving. One is a deadly sin; the other a virtue.
I have had to confess, occasionally, that an animal in my care was not within my power to care for (that is, I could do nothing to ease their pain, nor to move them toward any improvement in health or well-being) and in those cases, I have, in fact, either killed the animal or had them killed, in the most painless way available. (And some of you can have no idea just how primitively I have lived sometimes) It still weighs on my heart. If it didn't, I would worry about my callousness.

Withholding the kind of "care" that is nothing but prolonging agony is one thing; I tend to see that "care" as unconscionable experimentation on the part of the professionals. Actively shoving a weakening person into the grave is another, and is also unconscionable. Where the border lies is something I can't even begin to "make rules" about.

"DNR" orders aren't always followed; I know one care provider who simply made certain, when the person for whom they were caring actually did die (having written a DNR order himself) not only checked him carefully, but called the family members, had them come over and move the spouse out of the house, and then called an ambulance. Even then, the emts attempted resuscitation, I think.
Be certain your own doctors know the contents of that LW, and have a lawyer primed, just in case.


Jody
#240549 - 12/21/11 03:32 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Amen and thank you for sharing! God bless u and yours.

#247252 - 08/17/12 11:25 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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What we have done since posting our opinion on end of life decisions for KiwiU2.

In no way do I think I am so omnipotent that I am the only person on earth who can provide excellent care for a bird. In no way am I so naďve to think that commitment levels and the bird’s response to care changes will continue on a positive level for the 40 plus years necessary to her possible life span.

We sought legal advice. Kiwi’s last needs are provided for in our trust. The family has been advised. Everyone loves her, but no one wants the extreme commitment. Our lawyer has advised us thusly: Just as life holds no guarantees, the hope for Kiwi receiving a ‘forever’ home and not become a passed around traumatized animal are greatly diminished due to her potentially long life span and demanding needs. There is no way to finance her future that is secure as we would like to think as law offices and trustees might change over that long period of time as well as their commitment level and interest level of anyone overlooking the trustee commitment. Funding her care to a non-profit is not a potentially secure possibility. (I personally concur as I have been instrumental in establishing several charitable non-profits for large entities and am familiar with federal non-profit rules, regulations and how easily a non-profit can close.

Large amounts of monies committed to this issue would still not be a guarantee. We trust his advice, as it would be their firm that would handle it/ benefit from it.

I had previously discussed this issue with her Vet along with the question of what method would be used to put her down if necessary.

On Kiwi’s last well bird check up in May of this year, we were asked again what our end of life plans for her are. The office just had experience with one of their staff adopting a cockatoo from someone who could no longer care for the bird with disastrous results for the bird. They understand first hand the difficulty of re-homing. Kiwi is acknowledged as the best bird health, appearance, care, adaptablility and behavior seen by their practice; in spite of that the vet concurred with our choice for end of life.
MEANWHILE: Kiwi has the best of life, the best care we can provide, adventures out and about. Businesses request her to come back and see them. She/me continue to preach the commitment of purchasing a large parrot and encourage rescue. We refer folks to mytoos for information about cockatoos and we often meet folks who own other species to whom we recommend they check out the site for help and honest advice. I tell everyone I would never do it again in spite of all the plus factors of having being blessed with her in our lives. She will live life as well as we can provide!!

Cold hard facts aren’t popular. Reality can be difficult to look at and deal with. Doing what is necessary doesn’t mean it doesn’t occur without great soul searching and tears. We have had to make end of life decisions for 3 out of 4 parents. It’s not easy. I am a cancer survivor. We have had one huge back surgery and 3 total joint replacements in the last 16 months. We anticipate we will have 15 plus years we can care for her. Time goes fast! Cold hard facts.

#247280 - 08/18/12 11:30 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I had to sit on this for a day and think about what you are saying and I'm sorry but I think you are wrong and so is your vet. Instead of making such a final decision so far ahead of time why not at least give her a chance at finding a good home. If you feel you have another 15 years or so ahead of you that gives you plenty of time to look. Euthanasia should only be used for ending a life that has no quality left in the case of sickness not in the case of no one can offer her a safe life. Decisions on end of life for elderly and or sick relatives is difficult I know but it's done because the person is at the end and heroic efforts are just delaying the inevitable and causing more discomfort and pain. We do not make these decisions because we are at the end of our lives and we feel the person isn't going to have a good life once we pass. No one ever is guaranteed safety in life regardless of species. Life is precious and should be sought not ended when an animal is healthy. And I personally feel your vet should retire now before they kill more innocent animals. If this person were my vet with this attitude they would not continue to be my vet. Just my opinion.
Nancy


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#247286 - 08/19/12 01:30 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: BE2Cassie]  
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Thank you Nancy....I was having a tough time getting my brain wrapped around euthanizing a perfectly healthy bird or any pet for "what ifs" and being convinced they won't be happy without us. I have being doing rescue work for quite some time and seen some difficult heart wrenching situations turn out perfectly fine in the end. I can't imagine any of my rescues loosing their life because their previous owner had no faith that someone else could provide a good home and family. Some have even turned around within days. I believe putting down a healthy animal is more than drastic. Especially with the amount of time and planning that can be put into ensuring they get what they need while your able too even if it has to be revisited every once and a while. I have my family making sure what I want is followed. I trust my family do do this in my abense.

As for the vet. I do know from personal experience that they are to not influence your decisions but to respect your wishes. If euthanasia is what you want,they will. If you want to treat an animal that is better off being euthanized based on their expert experience and education they will gently ask what your wishes are and give the option but not urge you either way....but will support you no matter what you decide....whether they agree or disagree....lucky that I have vets that I have known for over 10 years and know me well enough to know they can "tell it like it is" with me and know that I want them to give me the advice based on "if this was your animal what would you do" and then let me think about it.


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#247305 - 08/19/12 04:32 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Im having a hard time with this also. Putting down an animal should be the very last option for a SICK animal not a HEALHTY one! Nancy said it all much better then I could.


Theresa & Lulu
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~ Immanual Kant

#247349 - 08/19/12 12:13 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I haven't helped that much with finding birds new homes but one I just did I think shows what I am saying perfectly. Here's what happened, some of you have heard this story recently so it will be an update for you. I got a call from a woman who lost her husband a year ago and then her father a month before. She had a 42 year old Amazon named Koko. Her husband bought Koko as a hatchling and did the hand feedings himself, so Koko had never known a different family. He was recently diagnosed with the beginning of fatty liver disease due to his poor diet. The woman was close to loosing her home to foreclosure from remortgaging it to help pay medical cost for her husband. She had no where to go that would take Koko and fearful of his vet expenses down the road. In desperation she called me and asked if I would find Koko a home. It took me about 6 weeks of searching before I found that a past coworker who loved all animals and had big bird experience was willing to foster Koko. Jaime, Pat and Koko all came to my home to meet. It was love at first site for Jaime and Koko seemed to like him right off. He stepped up for him and excepted treats. Now it's been a few months amazingly Koko has settled right in with Jaime and Jakob and is doing fantastic! It took him about two weeks to perk up after the move, which floored me. I expected him to be depressed for months. His diet is slowly improving eating more veggies and fruits and is beginning to eat a few pellets. He no longer eats all of the junk food he was eating. The vet feels that with a change in diet that the liver will heal. And the most important thing is Jaime and Jakob love Koko already and are thinking of adopting him. So Koko age 42 who could easily live at least 20 more years is now living with Jaime and Jakob who are in their early 30s. Seems like that perfect match to me. Everyone is happy, especially Pat who was terrified of Koko going to the wrong home.
Living the rest of his life with these gentlemen is so much better for Koko than being euthanized.
Nancy


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#247387 - 08/19/12 11:09 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Janie,
When it became clear to me that I had to rehome my beloved companions, I also thought of euthanasia for my babies. I was consumed with guilt that they would not receive the kind of care and attenion they were entitled to. The thought of them languishing in cages at a rescue was something that I could not allow.
But, with the help of EM, who posted a need for new homes on this board, people came forward to offer homes. The one I choose for my Cockatoos only rarely came here and had not read the board for months. She came on that day and saw my need and to make a long story short, she adpoted both Charley and Sydnee. This home is the best home for a cockatoo. They are so loved and their lives are so enriched, I am amazed at how much time and energy this family puts into their comapanion birds.
I also had two conures who have found a wonderful home with a woman who loves them dearly.
I believe that God enginered this and if I had listened to him earlier, I would have saved myself a ton of grief and pain.
I just wanted to tell you my story. So please rethink your end of life plans for your beautiful feathered companion.

Last edited by Ladyhutch; 08/19/12 11:10 PM. Reason: clarification

You have two choices: accept things the way they are, or have courage to change them. J Kanani


#247389 - 08/20/12 12:18 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Ladyhutch]  
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Thank you Sharon.I know how painful this was for you to post about! Your experience came to mind also!


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#247393 - 08/20/12 01:18 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Janny, our vet can speak openly with me, those questions have been confronted, answered, told like it is, and not without mutual tears.

I thank you all for your input, experiences and thoughts. Believe me, we have put much consideration into this. I deeply appreciate all of you and your views.

I was most hesitant speaking to this subject knowing the intense opinions it might provoke. As we all know, adopting a large parrot is a decision that involves more than cage type and which brand of pellets to feed. Should a situation arise, where I/We are unable to attend to Kiwi's life situation decisions, a plan with appropriate power of attorney is in place.

Perhaps the question should be to everyone, WHAT IS THE PLAN FOR YOUR BIRD? It doesn't have to be this, but ARE YOU JUST LEAVING THINGS to happenstance? It's hard to plan 15-20 years out, and we aren't the type of folks to leave things to chance or foist responsibility onto others.

For the past year or so, I have been INTENTIONALLY interjecting THAT part of 'parrot commitment' in my speaking to others concerning large captive parrots. When the general public encounters her, we've interacted with hundreds upon hundreds of folks in just this last year or so, almost everyone asks 'how long do they live?' When I answer, they rock back on their heels and ask 'what will you do if she outlives you?' I explain there aren't many options for re-homing cockatoos and this is why rescue instead of purchase is so important, but rescues are crowded. I quickly explain what can happen to a cockatoo that isn't adjusting, what breeders do, what constant caging does to the bird and explain because of concern regarding crowded rescues and for her future what our decision is. I have had folks say nothing, I have had folks say that it is probably for the best, I have often been thanked for having that degree of love, concern and commitment to her.

#247395 - 08/20/12 02:12 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Janie, I respect your views and believe you have the best of intentions in mind, but I honestly can't wrap my mind around what exactly you have planned. I've been sitting on it for a couple days now, and it still doesn't compute. Would you have your children "put to sleep" in the very likely scenario that they outlived you? If not, why would you do that to a long lived, perfectly healthy cockatoo? Like humans, they move on from loss and it seems terribly unfair to cut Kiwi's life short just because you might not be there to take care of her.

(What is the plan for your bird?): I'm lucky to be on the young side of the scale. As Monty is ~15 and LSCs usually live between 40-60, I should be around for the rest of her natural life. Should I leave this Earth early, I've been looking into placing Monty at the Bloedel Conservatory in Vancouver, BC, a small, year-round tropical paradise catering to exotic plants and animals. If that falls through there are a number of other sanctuaries on my list. We have plenty of choices.


My flock: Monty (Eleanora/medium sulphur crested cockatoo), Benjamin Button (European Starling).
#247419 - 08/20/12 06:25 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Janie, while I can understand your rationale, I simply cannot agree with it.

Years ago I had the privilege of meeting someone that that was a true hero for the birds, and made great personal sacrifices in his fight to protect them. Over time, not only did I come to have the utmost of respect for him, but over time struck up a friendship. We didn't communicate often, but always stayed in touch. When he was diagnosed with a terminal illness, he took painstaking measures to insure that his birds futures were provided for. One evening I received an email from him, saying goodbye because he did not have much time left. He also told me that even though he had made wonderful arrangements for his birds, he just couldn't go through with it - couldn't bear the thought of leaving this earth not knowing what may happen to them 5, 10, 20 years down the road, because the future is never foreseeable and that he had them euthanized the day before. I cried for him and I cried for them. It was too late for them so I didn't say a word, but told my friend that I was sure they, and many other birds were waiting for him at the bridge. We said our goodbye's and I emailed him the Birdie Rainbow Bridge.

The next day I received an email from his family...he took his own life that night. I have always wondered if the decision that he made for his birds ended up being too much for him to handle, or if he had made the decision to take his own life before taking theirs. I did not lose any respect for my friend because of these final decisions he made, but I do feel in my heart that 3 lives were taken prematurely and needlessly.

I have to agree with AJ...would you end the life of your young child in the event if your untimely death? I know the argument - but our children will grow up to become self-sufficient, but our birds won't. So then I have to ask, what about a disabled child that will never be able to come a self-supporting/sufficient adult? What provisions could you make under those circumstances that you could not make for Kiwi?

To answer your question, no in the event of my death, I have not left the future of my birds to happenstance. I have made provisions to insure their future to the best of my abilities. All of my assets are held in a Living Trust, in which I am the Trustee. In the event of my death, my oldest son becomes the Executor of the Trust and it is his responsibility to see that my wishes are carried out, which includes who I have appointed as guardianship of my minor child. Another guardian has also been appointed for my birds. I trust this person with my birds lives, as much as a trust the person I have appointed to care for my daughter. In the event of my death, my instructions are very specific...the care and physical custody of the birds revert to their guardian immediately upon my death, and all decisions regarding their future will be decided by their guardian. If any of my family members has a desire to keep one of my birds, the final decision as to what is each bird's best interest is up to their guardian (who happens to be quite a bit younger than I). I also have a life insurance policy payable to the organization of the bird's personal guardian to provide for their continuing care. I'm lucky to have someone in my life that is capable of making these kinds of decisions for my birds, and I know that he will make the best possible decisions for them.

I acknowledge that life holds no guarantees, but I simply could not make the end of life choice for them. I've discussed this with my AV and he has an ethical issue with euthanizing a healthy companion and rather offers to assist in placement - even if it means that he, or one of his staff takes the bird in temporarily until they can find a good, loving home for them.

No hard feelings at all Janie...but I do hope you will give it some more thought. And Sharon, thank you for sharing your personal experience...I agree with you, God was in the driver's seat...as he should be.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#247451 - 08/21/12 06:36 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Janie, where there is life there is hope. Please don't stop searching for Kiwis next home.
I cannot fathom putting down a healthy intelligent member of my family. There are always alternatives. I think there are quite a few members on this site that would bend over backwards to find or give a Too a good home. There is always hope!
I am fortunate to have family who adore PJ. My sister is willing to give him a home in case of something untimely. All of our assets are in a Living Trust for his care. He also likes children as well, I have nieces and nephews that adore him. I use every moment possible to educate my grand niece Becca on his care his likes and dislikes. She wants to be a vet. When she was about 5 she came in and asked mamma for some garbage. She wanted to feed the flies. You never know, a lot can change in 15 years.


PJ owns 2 adults, 1 Grandma and everybody else is his playtoys.
#247457 - 08/21/12 08:22 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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While there are still deccent ethical care takers/rescues around (no matter how few) there is no way I could ever justify killing a perfectly healthy cockatoo (or any animal) just because I could no longer be around to garentee its wellbeing. As for a VET (who should know better) of all people reccomending this as an acceptable option, thats disgusting mad! something seriously amiss there laugh! No there is never any garentee that things will always work out, but that is the way life works. Surely it is better to give an animal a chance of having some degree of quality of life than no life at all?? The best thing any responsible caretaker can do is to make sure they have every possible measure in place to ensure an animals future welfare, and the rest has to be left to fate (which is what happens in nature).

Last edited by EchosMom; 08/21/12 09:28 PM.
#247460 - 08/21/12 09:29 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I just edited out a portion of a reply....please let's keep the dialogue respectful.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#247603 - 08/25/12 02:27 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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oliscot Offline
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oliscot  Offline
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Queensland, Australia
Oops sorry did get a little disrespectful there, which never helps the cause. Sorry for the extra work EM. Ill watch myself in future

#247607 - 08/25/12 03:25 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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EchosMom Offline
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EchosMom  Offline

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No apologies necessary Oliscot...it is a topic that will elicit strong emotions and responses. This topic comes up every so often and one thing for sure, it's never an easy discussion to have.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#247616 - 08/25/12 04:44 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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oliscot Offline
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oliscot  Offline
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Queensland, Australia
That is very true EM, it is a very volatile subject. jannie I do appreiate your concern for the future of your feathered companion, Im sure you are doing what you beleive to be right (it does appear to be the kindest least selfish thing to do on the surface). I imagine it would be very hard to say to say "Ive done the best I can, theres nothing more I can do to secure their future, so time to let fate take over". I sincerely hope you change your mind though. just my thoughts OKay will leave it at that

Last edited by oliscot; 08/25/12 05:04 PM.
#247668 - 08/27/12 05:47 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: oliscot]  
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FeatheredAngels Offline
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FeatheredAngels  Offline
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I have been thinking about this for awhile now and while I understand the fears of what might happen to our Feathered babies once we are gone...I also know that as their caregiver, it is our duty to provide for their future while we are here. This is part of our commitment and responsibility. It is part of my own personal promise to my own Feathered Angels. I am very blessed that both of my children (who are adults now) have volunteered to take over my Angels care, once I am gone. However even if that were not an option, I have also set other plans in motion just in case. When I adopted my Angels, part of the deal was to make sure they were cared for properly before and after my own passing. I think not making sure plans are in order, is not taking our commitment to them fully.

Do I have concerns for my birds welfare after I am gone, sure I do. Will they be spoiled and loved like they are now...I hope so. There are no guarantees ever, but I am doing everything possible to hopefully ensure that they are well taken care of long after I am gone. We have a written Will in place, funds to support them and alternative plans made should the need arise.

I am not arguing anyone's decision here, just expressing my own thoughts and opinions. This is a very difficult subject to say the least and I am completely aware of the horror stories that have happened to thousands of unwanted or relinquished birds. I deal with this daily, so I am very knowledgeable on this issue.

I have sadly had to watch some of my Angels over the years that lost their lives due to illness. I watched them struggle and fight to stay alive. I held and cradled them as their last breath was taken. I know for a fact that they want to live. It is just up to us to do everything possible to make sure that their futures are safe and provided for. I could never take their life from them. That just isnt my place to make that decision, these are Gods Angels.


Deborah
A Too is not a pet, it is a choice for life!


#247701 - 08/28/12 01:23 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Stormy Offline
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PA
Its been the same with me, I have brewing and thinking about this and even though I can't tell anyone what to do, I could not take my healthy birds here and have them put down because I would not be here to take care of them. Like everyone else, plans are in place and I can only hope that they will live a long and happy life after I am gone.

I know when I had to put my dog down it just broke my heart even though I knew it was the best for her. To take a perfectly healthy bird and look into their eyes knowing what your going to have done to them is a horrific thought to me. To me, I rather give them a chance at life then to end it.


Owned by birds and loving it!!
Terri
#247790 - 09/01/12 06:15 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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mom2paulie Offline
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mom2paulie  Offline
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New York
No way. There is no reason to put a healthy animal down. I had to bring my mom's dog to have her put down earlier this month. I never experienced it before. It was hard but I knew it was the right thing to do. She had lymphoma and was suffering, stopped eating, etc.. There was no quality of life anymore. As sad as I was, I felt that I was showing her a final act of kindness. The vet gave her a sedative first and she just went to sleep peacefully. I just held her and told her what a good girl she was. That was it.

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