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#240405 - 12/17/11 03:56 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Ellen W. Offline
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jm47... I am so glad you are doing well. I so enjoy reading your posts... everytime I see your name I know I have something enjoyable to read. You have a great sense of humor and are truly a good person.


Mom to Annie B.,Molly,the Keet Family, Zeke the Pug, Ivan the Terrible, Edison and Einstein the Cats
#240419 - 12/17/11 06:55 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Ellen, I'm actually a very naughty person, in the process of being rebuilt into a good Image, but I'm glad you can see the work in process! It's an interesting journey, and I don't want to unnecessarily miss something, but I will be content to get Home, too.


Jody
#240453 - 12/19/11 12:42 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: jm47]  
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I didn't want to initially comment about this since it was initially intended to be about our companions not Humans but....

I have had the unfortunate experience of watching my family suffer from Cancer until their passing.My Great Grandmother,an Uncle and was a caregiver for 8 months to my Mother from the time she was diagnosed terminally ill with 3 Cancerous Brain Tumors(only expected to live 3 months but the last 5 were horrible agony to her) in inoperable places (brain stem being one).I watched my Great Grandmother have her dignity stripped from her as she suffered long months in a hospital bed getting many bed sores,unable to eat and her life being sustained by intravenous and meal replacement drinks. She begged us to let her die for months before she passed away suffering until her last breath.

Again I watched this very same thing with my Mother only I was her caregiver and her health proxy.I watched a women at the young age of 57 be stripped of her dignity and go from the most independent women I had ever met to crying the first time her youngest daughter (me) had to change her attend for the first time that she had been incontinent and soiled it.I watched her suffer with the most severe headaches and pain I had ever seen anyone go through in all my life.I watched this for 8 months and cried many times with her over this since she was not a person to accept help or ever take a hand out from someone.She was being slowly stripped day to day learning each day there were more and more limitations to what she could do until the day came that she passed away in my arms struggling for her last breaths and her body trembling from extreme pain that not even the strongest dose of morphine could control anymore.Her brain had so much swelling it was pressing the scull and no medications or treatments could help her.Watching your loved one go through that and begging you to help them knowing you can not because it is considered "murder" is the hardest thing you will ever have to live through.I can not judge those who would choose a humane way to go whether you want to call it suicide or "Human Euthanasia" after my experiences and have to be completely honest when I say "I will NEVER put a family member through that horror".

I have a living will made up and keep it on me at all times.I will not live hooked up to machines without chance of recovery.I have made my wishes very clear and I am to have comfort measures only no heroic measures in the event something should happen to me.I can not say if I was diagnosed terminally ill that I would not want a more peaceful passing than what I have seen my special family members go through.I may just have to take matters in my own hands if I am able to do so still.I believe the law around human assisted passing needs to be revisited since I believe if the person themselves is able to make the decision that should be respected and if it is family that has to make the decision it should be with sound arguments and agreed upon by the closest family in the event there is no cure or recovery.

If you think about this for a moment...if my dog was to run out and get hit by a car I have the right to decide that companions fate and either have that dog treated or put to rest.Why is it if a human is able to speak for themselves or if the family is watching them suffer intolerable pain they can not assist in making a decision to go just as peacefully?After what I have seen my family go through I know what I would want and people may think it is wrong and so be it...that is your belief but why should people dictate what everyone has to believe or do...if your not in agreement with it then make that stipulation clear to a health proxy and living will what your wishes are.But don't shackle the people who would prefer to go with dignity when there really is no cure at the end stages of their life.

Do I believe there has to be guidelines....yes.You can't just run out and euthanize someone for having bad hair.I believe it has to be a Dr assistance and you would need to plead your situation to a panel of people.There are ways to manage this so to not encourage people to just run out and make their family drop off.It's something that I have put allot of thought into because of the direction my life has taken over the years.


As far as companions go.I have seen and heard of many people that take a dog or cat out and shoot it because it is "untrainable". I don't agree with that.I have heard of people putting a companion to rest because they can't afford treatments in a young dog with hip problems.Something so treatable yet they have the choice to put it down.My sister was euthanizing her aged German Shepard dog that was blind deaf and not able to mobilize on his own anymore.While there the vet pulled her aside and showed her a dog that was there to be euthanized and ethically he could loose his license for what he did.It was a breeder that had brought the 6 month old Shepard in to have it put down because it had a slightly crooked from paw and because it was "damaged" it was useless to her.This vet let my sister take that dog home with her that day and he could be in allot of trouble for that.But just think about how easily people can do this and dis-guard of an imperfect line of dog that is perfectly happy and one of the best dogs I know.It disgusts me.Yet humans don't have any choice in how they choose to go really....

Just food for thought.No one person has to believe the way I do and I am sorry if this offends anyone.It truly is not meant too.Whatever your beliefs are they are your right and hold on to that.Don't be afraid to stand up for and fight for what you believe is right in your mind and your life.You are the one living the experience and you are the only one who can make decisions like this...bottom line is you should not be judged for what you believe is the right thing to do since no one is walking in your footsteps or experiencing things the way you are.You will know what you need to do when you are faced with making decisions about your companions.Having had to do it a couple of times it is not an easy decision to make and you will have doubts in your decision but you get past that with help of good friends and supports.

At this point I am having to make these decisions for one of my dogs.She has Heart Disease and has been diagnosed a year ago with Congestive Heart Failure.We are on the max doses of her medications and they are not sustaining her anymore and her disease is progressing.Our option as a final attempt to prolong things is to increase her one medication to the above therapeutic dose in attempts to shock the kidneys into taking the fluid off the chest and heart.It is not suggested that people do this but we would like to wait until after Christmas if she can be kept comfortable to our knowledge until then.Is it going to work...not sure.I have seen some improvements and her quality of life is still barely there.The prognosis is not looking good and the risk is her heart could stop at any time when it is fatigued and ready to do so.Do I want that to happen....not really.I have at this point make things the most comfortable for her as it can be.If things don't show any improvement by the next few day or so I will have to let her go.I can't not watch her struggle for every breath and know that she feels like she is drowning on land.It's unfair to her to spend her last days like that and it can go on for weeks like this.But weeks are about all we can even hope for if she has any relief as well from the medication change.It is going to be hard but we know it is the right decision as well.She is young....only 10 years old and after reading life expectancy for CHF in dogs they tend to live on average 4 months to a year after diagnosed and treated.So we have done well this past year and some...she has had some special treatment (spoiled rotten really).I just know it's not an easy thing to do....


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#240455 - 12/19/11 01:20 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Ellen W. Offline
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I had to have my dog, Katie, put to sleep last year. She also had congestive heart failure. It was not fair to her to "keep her alive." It was very hard but I would do it again.

My mother had dementia for 10 years. I watched her turn from a beautiful, dynamic woman into a caricature. She would have been so embarrassed. I wished I had it in my power to give her a dignified death.


Mom to Annie B.,Molly,the Keet Family, Zeke the Pug, Ivan the Terrible, Edison and Einstein the Cats
#240460 - 12/19/11 08:51 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I lied. I'm no longer 63; forgot I turned 64. Wonder if I getting demented; used to have a very, very good memory.
One of the things about refusing to sit around waiting to die is that I will probably fall off my bike, or trip on the ice, or something, rather than fade away, but if not, I still have a refusal of certain medical "procedures" already made. If you forbid "them" from using the machines, you are within your own control. Once they get the gadgets hooked up, it's sort of difficult to get them turned off.

Not that my "dignity" matters all that much to me. Our family always says not to get "dignified" before age 60 (or was that 80?) anyhow. The value of a life is not pride, but love. If I want to look good to others, I'm proud. If I want to give, and manage to do so, I'm loving. One is a deadly sin; the other a virtue.
I have had to confess, occasionally, that an animal in my care was not within my power to care for (that is, I could do nothing to ease their pain, nor to move them toward any improvement in health or well-being) and in those cases, I have, in fact, either killed the animal or had them killed, in the most painless way available. (And some of you can have no idea just how primitively I have lived sometimes) It still weighs on my heart. If it didn't, I would worry about my callousness.

Withholding the kind of "care" that is nothing but prolonging agony is one thing; I tend to see that "care" as unconscionable experimentation on the part of the professionals. Actively shoving a weakening person into the grave is another, and is also unconscionable. Where the border lies is something I can't even begin to "make rules" about.

"DNR" orders aren't always followed; I know one care provider who simply made certain, when the person for whom they were caring actually did die (having written a DNR order himself) not only checked him carefully, but called the family members, had them come over and move the spouse out of the house, and then called an ambulance. Even then, the emts attempted resuscitation, I think.
Be certain your own doctors know the contents of that LW, and have a lawyer primed, just in case.


Jody
#240549 - 12/21/11 03:32 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Amen and thank you for sharing! God bless u and yours.

#247252 - 08/17/12 11:25 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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What we have done since posting our opinion on end of life decisions for KiwiU2.

In no way do I think I am so omnipotent that I am the only person on earth who can provide excellent care for a bird. In no way am I so naÔve to think that commitment levels and the birdís response to care changes will continue on a positive level for the 40 plus years necessary to her possible life span.

We sought legal advice. Kiwiís last needs are provided for in our trust. The family has been advised. Everyone loves her, but no one wants the extreme commitment. Our lawyer has advised us thusly: Just as life holds no guarantees, the hope for Kiwi receiving a Ďforeverí home and not become a passed around traumatized animal are greatly diminished due to her potentially long life span and demanding needs. There is no way to finance her future that is secure as we would like to think as law offices and trustees might change over that long period of time as well as their commitment level and interest level of anyone overlooking the trustee commitment. Funding her care to a non-profit is not a potentially secure possibility. (I personally concur as I have been instrumental in establishing several charitable non-profits for large entities and am familiar with federal non-profit rules, regulations and how easily a non-profit can close.

Large amounts of monies committed to this issue would still not be a guarantee. We trust his advice, as it would be their firm that would handle it/ benefit from it.

I had previously discussed this issue with her Vet along with the question of what method would be used to put her down if necessary.

On Kiwiís last well bird check up in May of this year, we were asked again what our end of life plans for her are. The office just had experience with one of their staff adopting a cockatoo from someone who could no longer care for the bird with disastrous results for the bird. They understand first hand the difficulty of re-homing. Kiwi is acknowledged as the best bird health, appearance, care, adaptablility and behavior seen by their practice; in spite of that the vet concurred with our choice for end of life.
MEANWHILE: Kiwi has the best of life, the best care we can provide, adventures out and about. Businesses request her to come back and see them. She/me continue to preach the commitment of purchasing a large parrot and encourage rescue. We refer folks to mytoos for information about cockatoos and we often meet folks who own other species to whom we recommend they check out the site for help and honest advice. I tell everyone I would never do it again in spite of all the plus factors of having being blessed with her in our lives. She will live life as well as we can provide!!

Cold hard facts arenít popular. Reality can be difficult to look at and deal with. Doing what is necessary doesnít mean it doesnít occur without great soul searching and tears. We have had to make end of life decisions for 3 out of 4 parents. Itís not easy. I am a cancer survivor. We have had one huge back surgery and 3 total joint replacements in the last 16 months. We anticipate we will have 15 plus years we can care for her. Time goes fast! Cold hard facts.

#247280 - 08/18/12 11:30 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I had to sit on this for a day and think about what you are saying and I'm sorry but I think you are wrong and so is your vet. Instead of making such a final decision so far ahead of time why not at least give her a chance at finding a good home. If you feel you have another 15 years or so ahead of you that gives you plenty of time to look. Euthanasia should only be used for ending a life that has no quality left in the case of sickness not in the case of no one can offer her a safe life. Decisions on end of life for elderly and or sick relatives is difficult I know but it's done because the person is at the end and heroic efforts are just delaying the inevitable and causing more discomfort and pain. We do not make these decisions because we are at the end of our lives and we feel the person isn't going to have a good life once we pass. No one ever is guaranteed safety in life regardless of species. Life is precious and should be sought not ended when an animal is healthy. And I personally feel your vet should retire now before they kill more innocent animals. If this person were my vet with this attitude they would not continue to be my vet. Just my opinion.
Nancy


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#247286 - 08/19/12 01:30 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: BE2Cassie]  
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Thank you Nancy....I was having a tough time getting my brain wrapped around euthanizing a perfectly healthy bird or any pet for "what ifs" and being convinced they won't be happy without us. I have being doing rescue work for quite some time and seen some difficult heart wrenching situations turn out perfectly fine in the end. I can't imagine any of my rescues loosing their life because their previous owner had no faith that someone else could provide a good home and family. Some have even turned around within days. I believe putting down a healthy animal is more than drastic. Especially with the amount of time and planning that can be put into ensuring they get what they need while your able too even if it has to be revisited every once and a while. I have my family making sure what I want is followed. I trust my family do do this in my abense.

As for the vet. I do know from personal experience that they are to not influence your decisions but to respect your wishes. If euthanasia is what you want,they will. If you want to treat an animal that is better off being euthanized based on their expert experience and education they will gently ask what your wishes are and give the option but not urge you either way....but will support you no matter what you decide....whether they agree or disagree....lucky that I have vets that I have known for over 10 years and know me well enough to know they can "tell it like it is" with me and know that I want them to give me the advice based on "if this was your animal what would you do" and then let me think about it.


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#247305 - 08/19/12 04:32 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Im having a hard time with this also. Putting down an animal should be the very last option for a SICK animal not a HEALHTY one! Nancy said it all much better then I could.


Theresa & Lulu
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~ Immanual Kant

#247349 - 08/19/12 12:13 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I haven't helped that much with finding birds new homes but one I just did I think shows what I am saying perfectly. Here's what happened, some of you have heard this story recently so it will be an update for you. I got a call from a woman who lost her husband a year ago and then her father a month before. She had a 42 year old Amazon named Koko. Her husband bought Koko as a hatchling and did the hand feedings himself, so Koko had never known a different family. He was recently diagnosed with the beginning of fatty liver disease due to his poor diet. The woman was close to loosing her home to foreclosure from remortgaging it to help pay medical cost for her husband. She had no where to go that would take Koko and fearful of his vet expenses down the road. In desperation she called me and asked if I would find Koko a home. It took me about 6 weeks of searching before I found that a past coworker who loved all animals and had big bird experience was willing to foster Koko. Jaime, Pat and Koko all came to my home to meet. It was love at first site for Jaime and Koko seemed to like him right off. He stepped up for him and excepted treats. Now it's been a few months amazingly Koko has settled right in with Jaime and Jakob and is doing fantastic! It took him about two weeks to perk up after the move, which floored me. I expected him to be depressed for months. His diet is slowly improving eating more veggies and fruits and is beginning to eat a few pellets. He no longer eats all of the junk food he was eating. The vet feels that with a change in diet that the liver will heal. And the most important thing is Jaime and Jakob love Koko already and are thinking of adopting him. So Koko age 42 who could easily live at least 20 more years is now living with Jaime and Jakob who are in their early 30s. Seems like that perfect match to me. Everyone is happy, especially Pat who was terrified of Koko going to the wrong home.
Living the rest of his life with these gentlemen is so much better for Koko than being euthanized.
Nancy


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#247387 - 08/19/12 11:09 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Janie,
When it became clear to me that I had to rehome my beloved companions, I also thought of euthanasia for my babies. I was consumed with guilt that they would not receive the kind of care and attenion they were entitled to. The thought of them languishing in cages at a rescue was something that I could not allow.
But, with the help of EM, who posted a need for new homes on this board, people came forward to offer homes. The one I choose for my Cockatoos only rarely came here and had not read the board for months. She came on that day and saw my need and to make a long story short, she adpoted both Charley and Sydnee. This home is the best home for a cockatoo. They are so loved and their lives are so enriched, I am amazed at how much time and energy this family puts into their comapanion birds.
I also had two conures who have found a wonderful home with a woman who loves them dearly.
I believe that God enginered this and if I had listened to him earlier, I would have saved myself a ton of grief and pain.
I just wanted to tell you my story. So please rethink your end of life plans for your beautiful feathered companion.

Last edited by Ladyhutch; 08/19/12 11:10 PM. Reason: clarification

You have two choices: accept things the way they are, or have courage to change them. J Kanani


#247389 - 08/20/12 12:18 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Ladyhutch]  
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Thank you Sharon.I know how painful this was for you to post about! Your experience came to mind also!


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#247393 - 08/20/12 01:18 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Janny, our vet can speak openly with me, those questions have been confronted, answered, told like it is, and not without mutual tears.

I thank you all for your input, experiences and thoughts. Believe me, we have put much consideration into this. I deeply appreciate all of you and your views.

I was most hesitant speaking to this subject knowing the intense opinions it might provoke. As we all know, adopting a large parrot is a decision that involves more than cage type and which brand of pellets to feed. Should a situation arise, where I/We are unable to attend to Kiwi's life situation decisions, a plan with appropriate power of attorney is in place.

Perhaps the question should be to everyone, WHAT IS THE PLAN FOR YOUR BIRD? It doesn't have to be this, but ARE YOU JUST LEAVING THINGS to happenstance? It's hard to plan 15-20 years out, and we aren't the type of folks to leave things to chance or foist responsibility onto others.

For the past year or so, I have been INTENTIONALLY interjecting THAT part of 'parrot commitment' in my speaking to others concerning large captive parrots. When the general public encounters her, we've interacted with hundreds upon hundreds of folks in just this last year or so, almost everyone asks 'how long do they live?' When I answer, they rock back on their heels and ask 'what will you do if she outlives you?' I explain there aren't many options for re-homing cockatoos and this is why rescue instead of purchase is so important, but rescues are crowded. I quickly explain what can happen to a cockatoo that isn't adjusting, what breeders do, what constant caging does to the bird and explain because of concern regarding crowded rescues and for her future what our decision is. I have had folks say nothing, I have had folks say that it is probably for the best, I have often been thanked for having that degree of love, concern and commitment to her.

#247395 - 08/20/12 02:12 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Janie, I respect your views and believe you have the best of intentions in mind, but I honestly can't wrap my mind around what exactly you have planned. I've been sitting on it for a couple days now, and it still doesn't compute. Would you have your children "put to sleep" in the very likely scenario that they outlived you? If not, why would you do that to a long lived, perfectly healthy cockatoo? Like humans, they move on from loss and it seems terribly unfair to cut Kiwi's life short just because you might not be there to take care of her.

(What is the plan for your bird?): I'm lucky to be on the young side of the scale. As Monty is ~15 and LSCs usually live between 40-60, I should be around for the rest of her natural life. Should I leave this Earth early, I've been looking into placing Monty at the Bloedel Conservatory in Vancouver, BC, a small, year-round tropical paradise catering to exotic plants and animals. If that falls through there are a number of other sanctuaries on my list. We have plenty of choices.


My flock: Monty (Eleanora/medium sulphur crested cockatoo), Benjamin Button (European Starling).
#247419 - 08/20/12 06:25 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Janie, while I can understand your rationale, I simply cannot agree with it.

Years ago I had the privilege of meeting someone that that was a true hero for the birds, and made great personal sacrifices in his fight to protect them. Over time, not only did I come to have the utmost of respect for him, but over time struck up a friendship. We didn't communicate often, but always stayed in touch. When he was diagnosed with a terminal illness, he took painstaking measures to insure that his birds futures were provided for. One evening I received an email from him, saying goodbye because he did not have much time left. He also told me that even though he had made wonderful arrangements for his birds, he just couldn't go through with it - couldn't bear the thought of leaving this earth not knowing what may happen to them 5, 10, 20 years down the road, because the future is never foreseeable and that he had them euthanized the day before. I cried for him and I cried for them. It was too late for them so I didn't say a word, but told my friend that I was sure they, and many other birds were waiting for him at the bridge. We said our goodbye's and I emailed him the Birdie Rainbow Bridge.

The next day I received an email from his family...he took his own life that night. I have always wondered if the decision that he made for his birds ended up being too much for him to handle, or if he had made the decision to take his own life before taking theirs. I did not lose any respect for my friend because of these final decisions he made, but I do feel in my heart that 3 lives were taken prematurely and needlessly.

I have to agree with AJ...would you end the life of your young child in the event if your untimely death? I know the argument - but our children will grow up to become self-sufficient, but our birds won't. So then I have to ask, what about a disabled child that will never be able to come a self-supporting/sufficient adult? What provisions could you make under those circumstances that you could not make for Kiwi?

To answer your question, no in the event of my death, I have not left the future of my birds to happenstance. I have made provisions to insure their future to the best of my abilities. All of my assets are held in a Living Trust, in which I am the Trustee. In the event of my death, my oldest son becomes the Executor of the Trust and it is his responsibility to see that my wishes are carried out, which includes who I have appointed as guardianship of my minor child. Another guardian has also been appointed for my birds. I trust this person with my birds lives, as much as a trust the person I have appointed to care for my daughter. In the event of my death, my instructions are very specific...the care and physical custody of the birds revert to their guardian immediately upon my death, and all decisions regarding their future will be decided by their guardian. If any of my family members has a desire to keep one of my birds, the final decision as to what is each bird's best interest is up to their guardian (who happens to be quite a bit younger than I). I also have a life insurance policy payable to the organization of the bird's personal guardian to provide for their continuing care. I'm lucky to have someone in my life that is capable of making these kinds of decisions for my birds, and I know that he will make the best possible decisions for them.

I acknowledge that life holds no guarantees, but I simply could not make the end of life choice for them. I've discussed this with my AV and he has an ethical issue with euthanizing a healthy companion and rather offers to assist in placement - even if it means that he, or one of his staff takes the bird in temporarily until they can find a good, loving home for them.

No hard feelings at all Janie...but I do hope you will give it some more thought. And Sharon, thank you for sharing your personal experience...I agree with you, God was in the driver's seat...as he should be.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#247451 - 08/21/12 06:36 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Janie, where there is life there is hope. Please don't stop searching for Kiwis next home.
I cannot fathom putting down a healthy intelligent member of my family. There are always alternatives. I think there are quite a few members on this site that would bend over backwards to find or give a Too a good home. There is always hope!
I am fortunate to have family who adore PJ. My sister is willing to give him a home in case of something untimely. All of our assets are in a Living Trust for his care. He also likes children as well, I have nieces and nephews that adore him. I use every moment possible to educate my grand niece Becca on his care his likes and dislikes. She wants to be a vet. When she was about 5 she came in and asked mamma for some garbage. She wanted to feed the flies. You never know, a lot can change in 15 years.


PJ owns 2 adults, 1 Grandma and everybody else is his playtoys.
#247457 - 08/21/12 08:22 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 203
oliscot Offline
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oliscot  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 203
Queensland, Australia
While there are still deccent ethical care takers/rescues around (no matter how few) there is no way I could ever justify killing a perfectly healthy cockatoo (or any animal) just because I could no longer be around to garentee its wellbeing. As for a VET (who should know better) of all people reccomending this as an acceptable option, thats disgusting mad! something seriously amiss there laugh! No there is never any garentee that things will always work out, but that is the way life works. Surely it is better to give an animal a chance of having some degree of quality of life than no life at all?? The best thing any responsible caretaker can do is to make sure they have every possible measure in place to ensure an animals future welfare, and the rest has to be left to fate (which is what happens in nature).

Last edited by EchosMom; 08/21/12 09:28 PM.
#247460 - 08/21/12 09:29 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
Joined: Mar 2007
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EchosMom Offline
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EchosMom  Offline

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Florida, USA
I just edited out a portion of a reply....please let's keep the dialogue respectful.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#247603 - 08/25/12 02:27 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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oliscot Offline
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oliscot  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 203
Queensland, Australia
Oops sorry did get a little disrespectful there, which never helps the cause. Sorry for the extra work EM. Ill watch myself in future

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