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#215383 - 01/17/10 05:10 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: EchosMom]  
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Lucy's Mom Offline
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Not a topic for the faint of heart. I continue to preach adoption to everyone I know (and some that I love) and I am talking dogs as well. Some people can just not 'get' that a puppy or a young bird who is bred is really the problem and that they should adopt rather than contributing to the problem.

It is so difficult to see people do these things and let other animals be euthanized...all for the sake of 'what'? That is my problem...I just don't get it. Once you have been educated and you understand, how can you do it? It is unbelievably hurtful to me.


Karen, Lucy (U2), BooBoo (CAG),Pina (BCC),Willie (Cockatiel),
Melody, Sonata, Penny & Dory(dogs)
#215411 - 01/17/10 09:21 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Lucy's Mom]  
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I appreciate the views/opinions on a very touchy subject - and I want to clarify a few things as I have received some emails from members of the board voicing some concern.

First off - I have not taken offense to any comments made but do need to elaborate on one in regards to this being a "repetitive" subject.

Many topics on this board and others are very repetitive and annoying - but - is that not the purpose and goal of educating people? I can't imagine going into the vet with my bird and asking a question or two only to be told "Heres a pamphlet and some links, go read about it, I'm tired - I spend the entire day answering those exact questions already" - what a jaw dropper that would be.

When people go to message boards, they are looking for answers/help - they may or may not know how to use the search function and just maybe they want to "talk" to someone on the board who does have experience and they want some advice.

I see the same questions asked over and over and alot of the same advice - but - some is different - and the advice is given based on first hand experience 90% of the time. You can have 3 people with screaming toos - get 3 different "remedies" if you will and find out later that all three had different reactions - one did well with ABA - one did well with more socializing and one did well just being given the opportunity to chew as much wood as their little heart desires..

When we did the expo last year, we had people come to our table, look at the photos, read the material and reply "OMG, I never knew thats what went on in bird mills" and they ask questions about breeding and what really goes on and where DO those birds in petland come from - you spend 1/2 an hour telling them and providing "factual" information and they walk away saying they will NEVER buy from a petstore - they've been educated.

Not 5 minutes later another person comes over and looks and reads and tells you they just bought a bird from a breeder and why is that bad? You explain the downside of breeding and why its bad - after another 1/2 hour they walk away having been educated and feeling like crap for what they did, but now realizing they have a lifelong responsibility and will do the best they can. Guess what, 10 mins later another person walks over and we are now repeating "exactly" what we just told the first two - and on it goes, for two straight days.

That is the purpose of education - to repeat over and over and over again and pray that your message is getting through and making a difference.

If a message board already has all the answers to every question, why is it not locked and turned into a 'read only' site - why keep it running - the answer is simple - because although repetitious - if one out of 10 people who read it change their mind about buying a bird, it can make a world of difference - and if that one person who did purchase a bird now has a world of trouble on their hands and is ready to rehome it/sell it/euthanize it, coming here could very easily save that birds life.

I have no disrespect for anyone and can fully understand the annoyance of repeating oneself, but I also know how important it is.

And lastly - for those who asked me about Mango and the U2, there is no thought of euthanizing either one of them unless medical tests reveal it necessary - the comment was not made by me, but by the current owner of the U2 based on the aggressive behavior, and just maybe he was testing us to see how we would respond.

We have had an offer from someone to foster the U2 if needed and we will decide that when we know the fate of the M2 - the M2 is going to need some major medical care and alot of our attention, a foster for the U2 may be the best solution for now - again - we wont'know until we hear back.

We believe in the "right to life" and have gone above and beyond what many would have in the lives of the rescues - the birds handed over to us from the SPCA were set to be euthanized due to both medical and behavior issues - we allowed them the second chance to recover and work with them in all areas - we have Peaches the lovebird - surgery to remove embedded string in her leg, follicular cysts/folliculitis and she really looks crappy with her bare back and her lumps here and there and multiple feathers out of one follicle(still gorgeous to me!) - but is she happy? I would bet my life on it - she can run/hop and 'glide' - loves playing with the tiels - eats well and loves people - shes a total joy - she was on deaths door and we could have easily opened that door, but we chose not to - and while very expensive, she now has the quality of life she deserves - or at least what can be provided for her inside the walls of her prison - her cage...

Euthansia is a very real solution to many people and once again, I was surprised by something that really never crossed my mind until it was brought up to me and it still leaves alot of questions after this dialogue - again - when it relates to behavior, where do you cross that line and let them go, when drugs are needed just to keep them somewhat calm and they spend their life dozed up on a perch? Is that a happy bird? Is that a quality of life or just a life..

A tough question and not many people can answer it honestly until they are in that position - we all have our opinions which I am glad we can share - as the population increases and more bird stores start changing the title from "parrots" to "exotic birds" to get customers in the door, we will continue to have the rescues/sanctuaries fill up - a horribly sad reality - and God forbid what happens when the rescues are full up....

#215413 - 01/17/10 09:32 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Thanks for clearing things up Anna...as I said yesterday I was very confused at the direction this thread seemed to be taking.

Now, about ABA. It works and anyone that has tried it and believes otherwise isn't doing it properly and/or is not giving it enough time. It's not an easy process, as a matter of fact it takes ALOT of time, work and patience. And since behavior is always changing, what works today, may not work tomorrow. BUT, applied correctly, ABA does reduce unwanted behaviors by replacing them with more suitable behaviors that promote successful companionship. Unfortunately many people (not meaning anyone in particular) are too quick to dismiss it and quite frankly just don't give it a chance. Most people want a quick fix, and that is one thing that ABA isn't.

<Stepping off the soapbox now>


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215416 - 01/17/10 09:43 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I am sorry for using Mango and the U2 for example. I wasn't trying to imply that either of the two birds were going to be etuhenised by Anna or her rescue. She does go beyond for birds that are brought into her rescue. I guess I should have used any old names for bird one and bird two.

I also think it needs to be said that what a rescue facility faces and what the average person faces are two different senario's in the bigger picture.

I know when I was faced with deciding euthenasia or a life of more medication without much progress for Gabby when he was seizuring I had to do what was best for him and not myself. The medication made him so weak and so out of sorts...it was the max dose he was taking for his medications and still having many seizures at a time...I could not let him live like that any more.It is a tough call and of course I had guilt after making it but at the same time I know I did everything I could try and help him before making that decision. Did he have good days...yes he sure did.But the bad days were by far beyond the good days. When you watch them try to go and play and reach out with their beak for a toy and fall off a perch and scare the crap out of themself and not have enough energy to climb back up again...that is not a life IMO. It wasn't like that every day for him but the magority of time it was.

I really have not honestly been put in a situation where I had to medicate a bird for aggression as of yet. I was lucky that the one who came in here that aggressive learned to trust over time. I don't know when or how I would handle that until I am facing that situation.


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#215417 - 01/17/10 10:13 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janny]  
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Originally Posted By: Janny
I really have not honestly been put in a situation where I had to medicate a bird for aggression as of yet. I was lucky that the one who came in here that aggressive learned to trust over time. I don't know when or how I would handle that until I am facing that situation.


That's just it Janny. With ABA in your tool box there is no reason to treat a bird with antipsychotic medication to control aggression. And NO, you didn't get lucky Janny. Your bird learned to trust over time, because you EARNED it's trust, by giving choices - the foundation of ABA.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215418 - 01/17/10 10:40 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: EchosMom]  
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Very well said, EM, very well said.


Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#215433 - 01/18/10 01:54 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Greetings!

I'm MeegsDad (if you will, more like Lucky'sDad!)

I just wanted to tell you all a little story about one of our birds.

Lope (you say his name low-pay) is a red-fronted Amazon parrot. He is about 65 years old, and came to us in very poor health. You see, he was surrendered to the Calgary Humane Society. He had a pretty sever scissor beak, his tail feathers had been broken off, and he had started to shred his breast feathers. To top it off, he was fairly aggressive with all who tried to interact with him, and was deemed unfit for adoption. Because of this, he was scheduled for euthanasia. Thankfully he was given to Birdline, and things are looking great for Lope. His scissor beak is almost gone (we give him wood to chew on), he has been going through a molt and the new feathers look great (we feed him harrisons pellets and fresh fruit and veg every day) and behavior? Well, he still does not tolerate most folks, but he sure loves me! I am his best bud in the universe, and together we are happy!

The point of this story? Well, I don't believe in killing a bird unless it's mortally wounded or terminally ill and in pain. Otherwise I think that time and love can cure all problems. We at Birdline have proven that over and over....

#215437 - 01/18/10 04:32 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Silver Paladin]  
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I like the point of the story!! wink


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#215445 - 01/18/10 03:51 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Silver Paladin]  
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Originally Posted By: Silver Paladin
Well, I don't believe in killing a bird unless it's mortally wounded or terminally ill and in pain. Otherwise I think that time and love can cure all problems. We at Birdline have proven that over and over....


Amen.

If aggression gets a bird killed Bo (BFA) would have been gone....but for the last five months he's asked for head scratches. (JMO)


Man has turned Earth into a hell for animals.
Arthur Schopenhauer
#226140 - 10/13/10 06:55 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janny]  
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As long as folks are still questioning, perhaps the topic has not been over discussed. We have made the choice for KiwiU2 because we are more than cognizant of what she would face in another situation. Mytoos clearly shows the tragedies so many cockatoos face when left to rescues, rehomed if that is even an option for them, or given or sold for breeding. We care enough about this creature that we would not want her to suffer in any way, and rehoming just has too many variables to make it part of the equation. We took her in, we are responsible. Kiwi will never be a 'passed around' bird whose future care and welfare is left to chance.

We have discussed with her vet several times what we have decided for Kiwi when we can no longer care for her. We adopted this bird with the promise we wouldn't ever give her to a breeder, and we would give her the best life possible. We will fulfill that promise. We also don't feel overburdened rescues are an option. And like Charlie, we would never have another cockatoo.

Meanwhile, KiwiU2 will have a life full of love, top quality care, socialization, adventure, experiences, and purpose. Her purpose has become education through her socializing about the plight of large parrots. She is an ambassador for mytoos.com. She has been exposed to literally thousands of people to whom her message through me and her wonderful patience with humans has been relayed. She truly deserves the best decisions we can make for her in this 'human' world which we know so much better than she. She will not suffer one iota more in her life than what she must endure now, being a captive bird. We won't take that chance. We made the choice to take responsibility for her life and well being, and we are responsible for even the hard choices that will come. We will have no guilt. Great loss, yes, but no guilt.

Each person will have a different approach to end of life choices. Emotion should have no place in that process. Each situation is different, and each pet owner should come the conclusions that they can live with. No one should feel guilty for their reasoning process.

I think it is necessary and helpful to keep these discussions alive and non judgmental. Life ending is a reality for human and animal alike. Facing the topic, and understanding what your feelings are about euthanasia before you are confronted with the decision of 'what to do', is helpful. Thank you mytoos.

#226141 - 10/13/10 09:35 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janie]  
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Well this is my opinion on Euthenasia....

It comes down to quality of life vs quantity of life.No one person can give a black or white answer as to whether or not an animal should or shouldn't be euthenized but....

To put down a perfectly healthy cockatoo or any other animal is totally unacceptable just because you think no one else can take as good of care of it.That IMHO is unreasonable.Even if the said animal has behavior issues or health issues there are people out there that can learn and do as good of job taking care of them with the proper coaching and guidance.It is your responsibility to ensure that,if you can.

I am going to use one of my own birds for example even though he is no longer with me.Gabby was my "heart bird" and very special to me.He was very phobic but over a few years over came his phobias and became a rather "class clown" for anyone. He then started to have his seizures. Over this time I was still his only person and I worried.Who on earth could I find to give him his meds twice a day and comfort him during his seizures like I did if I was no longer here to do it.Well...he then accepted my niece as well and she totally adored him.It was my job to assist her in what needed to be done for him and give her ALL the information including expenses involved and time.She agreed to take on his caregiving responsibilities should something happen to me.I trusted she would have done this just as well as I had.He was a special needs and took allot of time and care but I know she would have done that because of our relationship and she knew what he meant to me.Unfortunately Gabby's end came prematurely because his health deteriorated quite fast.Again it was quality of life vs quantity.It wasn't because I could no longer care for him or be around to do it.

As for my other birds...I have taken much time and care into determining where they go and trust that my choice is a good one.I know the rescue I have chosen to entrust my birds too will do the best they can for my flock.Do I think they should be euthenized because they may end up in a couple more homes...no.The reality is they likely will just like how they ended up with me.But instead of coming to me and me seeing them happy again should they have been put down instead of coming here....no.They deserve a chance just like every other living being.

If you search out a good rescue there is no doubt that that bird would be taken care of very well.A rescue will ensure it is a good match to the person who adopts your companion and keeps in contact with that person.As long as you keep a journal of the care and needs of that cockatoo or parrot things should go smoothly.I have a journal of each of my birds care and unique things they like and get to help the future caregiver.

Quote:
Mytoos clearly shows the tragedies so many cockatoos face when left to rescues, rehomed if that is even an option for them, or given or sold for breeding.


Maybe we should clear this up...mytoos promotes that should you be faced with needing to rehome your birds for whatever reason that you seek out a "good rescue".We don't say how tragic it is should they end up in rescue and compare that to a bird being sold and end up in a breeding program.In the statement above that may be your opinion but not the opinion mytoos sends.


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#226143 - 10/13/10 10:44 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Janny]  
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Jan -

That was so well said, it made tears come to my eyes. Thanks!


Karen, Lucy (U2), BooBoo (CAG),Pina (BCC),Willie (Cockatiel),
Melody, Sonata, Penny & Dory(dogs)
#226156 - 10/14/10 06:17 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Lucy's Mom]  
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I don't, not for one minute believe that there is no one out there that can provide for my birds just as competently as I can....even better for that matter.

It is our responsibility to make provisions for our companions future, just as it is our responsibiity to do so for our children, or an aging parent in the event that we are no longer able to care for them.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#226635 - 11/03/10 01:26 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: EchosMom]  
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my last utoo,was to be put down,if i didn't take him,because he is dangerous! well maybe to men....but he loves the girls and me and hubby are working on the "man" thing sad sad things in this world

#236554 - 08/11/11 02:43 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: birdladyofbarton]  
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It's a sad reality but, like so many others have said for me its a quality of life thing along with does the bird still want to live?

For example, the bird may be severely disabled, chronically ill or etc but does, despite all of that, he/she still seem happy and energetic? Does he still want to live?
My tiel struggled for years with giardia and a whole host of secondary infections---and it's cost me easily a few thousand dollars and the long-term probiotics and constant screening he'll require after the damage of so many meds and the parasite itself isn't necessarily cheap---but he is happy and active, wants to live. So I would never consider it even if he had flare-ups and very got ill again.

But if I had a bird that was constantly in pain, mutilating and depressed, not able to perch or play or etc...then a humane release would be the option.

#236620 - 08/12/11 02:42 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: CrimsonBeak]  
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I had to face this option a few years ago when my Luna got desperately ill.

(I think the thread is still around here somewhere)

For the first few days it looked hopeless...she was emaciated, could barely lift her little head up, and that little spark in her eyes was fading.

Fortunately, God was so good and our vet an angel, she made a complete recovery over the next few weeks.

But I had made the decision in my mind to say goodbye to my girl if she continued to decline. I couldnt see her like that and not put her peacefully to sleep if she didnt improve.

Now...as far as putting down a bird because its "dangerous" or someone just doesnt want the bird....totally unacceptable.
I dont care how dangerous the bird is...there are ALWAYS other options. Rescues...good, reliable zoos...rehoming. If you don't want to take the time to look into other options for the bird YOU decided to take...then you should never have taken it in the first place. These are not "pets." They are companions in our lives (who never asked to be put there in the first place btw), and we have a responsibility to them.

#240349 - 12/15/11 06:22 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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This has been an interesting thread to read, the Too I recently took in was described to me in almost identical terms as the opening email here.
I just want to add, that the people who made the decisions about this Too were pretty set on their decision that the best option was to euth him, they believed an appropriate home was an impossibilty. It took quite a bit of explanation on my part to convince them otherwise.
They had a vet convinced of their decision as well.

My point is; often times people don't know What they don't know.

To think this Too had his fate seeled by uneducated or worse , arrogantly uneducated people is abhorable.
This bird has been here long enough for me to know that euthing him was far from the right answer, but more of a convenience for the people involved.

#240380 - 12/16/11 10:55 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Just my opinion on the matter. If a bird, or any other animal for that matter, is suffering from physical afflictions and illnesses that are making that creature's life one of only pain and suffering, with little or no hope of cure and/or recovery, and only holds the promise of a lingering death, euthanasia is certainly a reasonable and humane course of action. That being said, I would then add that as a species, we "humans" have a rather ignoble history regarding our relationship and treatment to those animals we fancy for "pets". We demand of them to bend to our whims and wishes, and all too often, unrealistic expectations for their demeanor and behavior; demands that go far beyond reasonable training and socialization. How arrogant, and egocentric it is that when we disregard their primal needs, heap on abuse and poor care, that we then want to destroy the life form that reacted with hostility and negativity to that experience. As previously stated in this thread, it is our responsibility to see that our companions are well cared for while we are with them, and make every effort to provide for them when we are no longer here to do so ourselves.

John

#240383 - 12/16/11 11:31 PM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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Duringmy 30 years on this eath i have seen many ofmy pets/partners put down.It started with a 6 week old puppy with parvo. Seeing the life leave his eyes is a memory i will never forget.I was only 7 at the time but i learned that all live means more than i could understand.
At that point and time i knew i would never let another pet suffer. I made sure that any that was in my house hold got vet care, If my parents couldn't affordit i got odd jobs.
Once i was old enough to hold a real job i started saving horses. I buried 3 very old men that no one else wanted but me. They were old and could no longer win blues in the show ring or had injurys that had never been treated. To me they were gold.
Once i married and had two kids we moved to where i could no longer afford the board. I had to let my soul mate go. I had thought about putting him down because i was afraid he would be mistreated.I watched him running up the hill bucking and kicking because he loved life. I knew i couldn't be that selfish. I spent amonth hunting a home for him. He was worth $2000 but to the right home he went for $400 to cover the last months board.
Thats when my heart wanted a friend i could have in my home. Thats how my birds came to me.Over the years i have fostered the dangerous birds. That turned into sweet hearts with a understanding person. No pet/partner's life is so small that the choice to end it just because we are tired of dealing with it should ever be made.
If they are healthy and love life why would you chose to stop that? There is someone out there that is ment for that pet. It is our responsabilty to find them. To make sure they can provide what we couldn't.
Now if one of my babies gets sick and i have been threw everything humanly possible to help them, and they continue to get worst then yes it is time to stop the suffering.
Life no matter how small or large is stilllife. It may not be the same as yours or mine but it desrves a chance.

#240391 - 12/17/11 01:06 AM Re: Euthanasia... [Re: Meegsmom]  
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I'm 63. I am on SSDI because I had a cancer recurrence and secondary tumors a couple of years ago. After a trip to ER and another long, miserable ambulance ride to a distant university hospital, I woke the next morning and saw the "treatment goals" board in my room: it said, "Goals: Pain management".

(Bear with me; I'm a human, and wordier than most cockatoos)
I listened to various prognoses, refused one "palliative treatment" option as unconscionable, agreed to another, spent a couple of weeks allowing my abdomen to be irradiated, and came home. . .well, to the place we were "camping out" in somebody else's basement because we no longer had a home of our own. I ate carefully. Nearly died from a reaction to medicine the first month. Heard doctors tell me that certain treatments were so painful that I ought to refuse them and just "go to sleep".

I don't want anyone except God saying when I die. Period. A lot of people prayed for me, and I decided it would be pretty stupid to just sit around waiting to kick the bucket, so I went bike riding. (coasted down the long hill to the farmers' market, then pedalled and trudged back up) Took four or five hours to do that trip, but by the time I got home, I knew I didn't have to just die because "they" said there was "no hope".

Now, I don't believe for a minute that this life is the only one I will have. I know the promise of Heaven, and trust the One who made it. And it appears to me (from where I stand, sit, or sprawl, depending on how I feel, and how the available sprawling susrfaces are) that those who "euthanize" an injurded or ill animal are believeing that there is "no hope" for that creature living, and living well.
There is always the element of "how much care can I afford to buy for, or give to, this creature?" We all have to think about this. I have had to consider this sometimes when deciding whether to keep an animal alive, or send him or her home the the Creator to be repaired/recreated to be whole and healthy. None of us lives in a vacuum; we all have other people to whom we are responsible for various things. HOWEVER. . .all that said, I have a feeling that when we as a society became convinced that "death is better than life" for some creatures, we opened the door to doing the same thing to (or "for") other human beings. "Kevork" is now a verb everyone in the US understands, whether we think it is a good thing or not. Suicide is no longer considered something to be prevented at every oipportunity. Right and wrong are becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish in medical crises, because we no longer believe that LIFE is simply better, bigger, greater, more, than death.
I have made life/death decisions occasionally, for animals I knew, because of the belief frame I have, had been placed in my responsibility. I have confessed that I was/am no longer able to fulfill the role God assigned me in their lives, and relinquished them, with tears, to Him. I can not, for the life of me, figure out how anyone without a solid relationship with the God Who Is can possibly claim to have that responsibility or right. The animals and birds are, we are told, in His care, and only if we can believe that fully, can we make any kind of wise or compassionate decision about them. But we dare not, we DARE NOT assume that we, or anyone, regardless of education or money, has the right or responsibility to make those decisions for us!

This may have little or nothing to do with "euthanizing" birds or animals, but it is a reflection of somebody who has been in a bed, listening to people urging her to make a suicide decision, either now or in the forseeable future. And I keep remembering Solomon's statement that "The righteous man regardeth (values, is involved in) the life of his beast, but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel". Is the "gift" of death one of those "tender mercies" that are cruel? I can't claim to be fully assured about this, but I suspect it might be. I have to be very, very careful. . .


Jody
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