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#209317 - 09/21/09 03:42 AM Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009  
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When I realized what ABA could do for people and their birds, I set out to learn as much as I could so I could pass it on. I want to help birds stay in their homes and ABA can do that if the caregiver is willing to put in the time and effort to learn how to do it. My feelings aside, I would still strongly encourage anyone interested to sign up for the Living and Learning on-line course with Susan Friedman and Lee McGuire. I think there is an 18 month waiting list but that time will pass quickly. It really is worthwhile. For me it was life changing and the relationship I have with my birds is unbelievable because of it.

Now it's showtime!!!

What is it and why do we need it? The process of analyzing the ABCs is called a Functional Analysis. There are 3 tenets of applied behaviour analysis. These are very, very important. Memorize them.

And remember this: To change behaviour we must change the environment, not the bird.

1. Behaviour has function.

2. Future behaviour is related to past consequences.

3. Thoughtful arrangement of the environment enables us to facilitate and maintain successful behaviours.

The ABCs of behaviour are the smallest meaningful unit.

Antecedent are those stimuli, events or conditions that occur immediately before the behaviour, which function to set the occasion for the bird to exhibit the behaviour.

Of course, you know behaviour and when doing your Functional Analysis, behaviour is always filled in first.

Consequences are those stimuli, events or conditions that occur immediately after the behaviour, which function as feedback about how to behave again in the future.

So it goes like this:

A means antecedent
B means behaviour
C means consequence

And then there is Possible Future Behaviour or what is likely to happen in the future given the consequence.

Any questions on this?

Bev

We will be spending a lot of time on this. This is like putting up the foundation for your house. Without a foundation, you can't have a house. You need the foundation of a Functional Analysis to change unwanted behaviour or get wanted behaviour.


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#209527 - 09/25/09 03:47 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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The fact that Gypsy has resorted to an attempt at biting me is 100% my fault. She is merely trying to tell me that you are not spending enough time with me and I don't want to do that. The solution is very simple. What bugs me is that my behaviour has put her in this position because all it takes is a few minutes of my time and the fact is I enjoy it as much as she does. Humans like to skip steps and when you are dealing with birds, there is a price to pay. The good news is that I can use what I have learned about ABA and modify the behaviour. In this case, I can eliminate the behaviour as long as Gypsy's attention tank has been filled before I ask her to step up to go to bed.


Bev's Functional Analysis:

Background: It's time for the birds to go to bed.

Antecedent: Bev presents hand to Gypsy
Behaviour: Gypsy tries to bite Bev
Consequence: Bev walks away

Possible Future Behaviour: Gypsy will try to bite Bev more often.

Now I already know the answer to this and have already implemented a strategy and as I suspected, it is an attention deficit thing.


Solution:

Background: Bev spends 5 minutes scratching Gypsy's head and singing and dancing with her.

Antecedent: Bev presents hand
Behaviour: Gypsy steps up
Consequence: Bev tells Gypsy what a good girl she is

Possible Future Behaviour: Gypsy will step up more often to get the attention she finds so reinforcing from Bev.

OK, let's see what you have.

Bev

Last edited by ZazuSally; 09/25/09 03:48 PM. Reason: added something

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#209572 - 09/26/09 02:32 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Backround: Morning chores are done and I just got Alex out of his cage

Antecedent: Alex and I are sitting on my computer chair (at my desk)
Behavior: Alex bites (to get access to items on Janet's desk)
Consequence: Janet gets up

Probable Future Behavior: Alex will continue to bite (so she will get up and he can gain access to her desk)

The fix:

Backround: Before getting Alex out of his cage, Janet clears everything (of interest to Alex) off her desk

Antecedent: Alex and I are sitting on the computer chair
Behavior: Alex lowers head
Consequence: Janet scratches Alex's head

Probable future behavior: Alex will continue to lower his head to get scratches

A simple rearranging of the environment (removing the items of interest to Alex on my desk) solved the problem and was the least intrusive method of eliminating the behavior I did not want - being bitten.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#209603 - 09/27/09 05:46 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Right - I've rewritten this quite a few times and am still having a hard time. I'm working on it and will post tomorrow...

(Sunday)

(every situation I want to change has the same solution - TIME)

Background. It's bedtime for the household. Juliana and Fancy have spent little time together; but the night ritual has not been skipped (walkabout, preening)

Antecedent: Juliana puts hand and Fancy in cage and asks Fancy to step up onto her sleeping perch.
Behaviour: Fancy says no or tries to climb up my arm
Consequence: Juliana and Fancy go walkabout the house.

Possible Future Behaviour: Fancy will continue to say no until her attention meter is filled.

Solution: more active play time with Fancy and no rushing the bedtime ritual.

Last edited by Fancy'sMum; 09/27/09 04:31 PM. Reason: attempted Antecedent Analysis as promised

Juliana
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#209608 - 09/27/09 07:44 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Fancy'sMum]  
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Good try, Juliana!! Does she actually say no? And I think you realizing that you are not spending enough time with her is excellent. I think you've done a pretty good job on the Functional Analysis. The behaviour is Fancy tries to climb up your arm? The antecedent which is immediately before the attempt to climb up your arm is the request for a step down on the perch and if indeed it is your attention (consequence) that she is after, the fact that you and Fancy go for a walkabout makes the Possible Future Behaviour that you gave spot on.

And your solution is also spot on. Take a few extra minutes to spend with Fancy before you actually put her in her cage and see what happens.

Well done, Juliana!!!

Bev

Have you been spending more one-on-one time with Fancy? And if you have, how has that been going?


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#209609 - 09/27/09 08:07 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Morning Bev

Yes she actually says "no" or she will try to climb my arm - not both but the message is the same. Therefore I do see two behaviours but they happen in reaction to the same antecedent. I see what you mean about the "right before the behaviour". That's the part that has me stumped - I'm not stripping it down far enough.

We have been spending more time together. It has helped tremendously. Her unwanted behaviours (bites, shoe attacks) have been non-existent this week as she's been getting more time from me. She really is a good girl. I'm the problem laugh It is interesting to note that she doesn't have these moments with my husband. He does no active play or training with her, they hang out a lot, and she has never bitten him; and always does as he asks. I admit that I am jealous!

Thanks again - will be following this thread as others participate.

Juliana


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#209616 - 09/28/09 03:30 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Fancy'sMum]  
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Juliana, the climbing up your arm or a clear no is perfect. I don't know what else you could be looking for. We could have cleaned it up a bit but let's not even worry about that right now. Does your husband spend any where near the amount of time with Fancy that you do? The relationship between Fancy and your husband is fantastic and you should see that as a gift because so many of these birds pick just one person. That's not good for the bird or the person but with ABA you can vastly improve the relationship you have with her and that's what we are here for. I think you are doing fantastic!!!

I never thought she was anything but the best bird in the world. LOL Behind every unwanted behaviour in a bird is a human who doesn't know any better. We cause them, so it's us who should fix them. There is no such thing as a bad bird. That's why ABA is so amazing.

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#209617 - 09/28/09 04:38 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
Behind every unwanted behaviour in a bird is a human who doesn't know any better.


I LOVE that statement Bev!


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#209632 - 09/28/09 02:43 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Why thank you, EM!!!

Just read a post on another list about someone telling a woman with a screaming bird how she cured her wild caught grey of screaming. She yelled at the bird to "knock if off" and then hit the cage with a broom, just once. That she has the audacity to suggest that on a positive reinforcement list is absolutely disgusting and calls herself a positive reinforcement trainer. Nothing worked she said. She has her head up her butt. That poor bird taken out of the wild (don't even get me started on that one) and she smacks his cage with a broom. She is many things but a positiver reinforcement trainer is not one of them. If she had utilized ABA correctly, she could have changed that screaming behaviour. If a behaviour increases or is maintained, it is being reinforced. She's lucky she didn't end up with a phobic grey and that still might happen as the bird is only 2 years old. Taken from the wild at 14 months. She lives in Turkey.

That poor bird.

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#209681 - 09/29/09 02:56 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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I'm waiting patiently for everyone to give me their Functional Analysis.

You aren't going to be tested on this you know and if you want a better relationship with your bird, now is the time to learn.

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#209704 - 09/29/09 10:38 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Abea’s functional analysis:

Background: Early evening before bedtime, Emmy sits on her stand nearby while Abea uses the computer--about 10 minutes. Abea concentrates more on the computer than on Emmy.

Antecedent: Abea uses the computer
Behavior: After several minutes, Emmy quietly gets on Abea’s shoulder and sticks a toe in Abea’s ear
Consequence: Abea reaches a hand to her shoulder and scratches Emmy’s head

Possible future behavior: Emmy will get on Abea’s shoulder and stick a toe in Abea’s ear more often



Solution:

Background: Abea spends 5 minutes scratching Emmy’s head and using “sweet talk” before going to the computer area.

Antecedent: Abea scratches Emmy’s head as soon as they are seated near the computer
Behavior: Emmy stays on her stand
Consequence: Abea scratches Emmy’s head and tells Emmy that she’s a good bird. Abea repeats the scratch and praise periodically when Emmy is on her stand.

Possible future behavior: Emmy will stay on her stand for 10 minutes

#209725 - 09/30/09 05:11 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: emmy]  
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Eddie's Functional Analysis

Background: Eddie will not allow me to put my hands near him without biting.

Antecedent:When I attempt to feed,clean cage or get him off his play stand he will strike at me.

Behavior: I now show him one of his favorite treats and he knows that if he strikes he won't get the treat. I had been giving treat before trying above things and he would drop and strike then climb down to get what he dropped.

I have been making progress,slow but it's progress. I also give a treat without looking for something in return,which he seems to enjoy. Another new thing with him is that he now looks for my attention by dancing and seems to be doing it for a treat which I give him.

I know that I an doing something wrong. grin

#209737 - 09/30/09 03:05 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Doubleyolk]  
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Good try, Abea and Joe but remember the antecedent is what sets the occasion for the behaviour to happen. And remember contiguous and contingent. Contiguous has to do with the timing of the consequence or reward. When trying to modify behaviour, the reward should be immediate when the requested behaviour has been given. I ask Zazu to step up, she does, she immediately gets a pine nut and I mean seconds after the behaviour. This way learning takes place. Now contingent means if you do this, you get that. So the reward of the pine nut is contingent on Zazu stepping up. Make sense so far.

Abea, what is actually the behaviour that gets Emmy the head scratch? Remember it sets the occasion for the head scratch.

Abea, you aren't really having any issues with Emmy, right? You've done very, very well with ABA.

Joe, let's break it down. The behaviour you are trying to modify/reduce/eliminate is what? Always do the target behaviour first. Always.

Any questions?


Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#209750 - 09/30/09 04:54 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Thanks, Bev.

Emmy trained me in very short order to scratch her head when she stuck her toe in my ear. As soon as she put her toe in my ear I would reach up and she would quickly put her head against my hand and I would scratch her. Looking at the solution part of my functional analysis--there is no one specific behavior for Emmy to get a scratch. The head scratches are used to give her periodic attention to keep her on her stand and away from my ear.

You’re right--no real issues with Emmy. Right now I’m looking for things to work on that might help make things easier day to day or in the future. Examples:

1) I’d like her to let me touch her feet and toes so I can file her nails.

2) I would like her to take a drop of water from a syringe. Hopefully this would make things easier if/when she ever needs to be medicated. She was on antibiotics frequently when younger and we had to towel her to give her meds. Now if she sees a syringe she flies back to her cage and stays there until it’s out of sight. (Got this idea from reading about BE2Cassie--thank you Nancy.)

Abea

#209752 - 09/30/09 05:37 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: emmy]  
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Good observations so it is Emmy putting her toe in your ear that triggers the reward which is the head scratch, right? So the behaviour was Emmy puts toe in Abea's ear. You said you immediately give her a head scratch.

Desensitization is the way to go for a nail trim. I use a really coarse emory board and I started by offering Zazu a favourite treat on the emory board. You can use shaping and chaining to get her used to a nail file. Does she allow you to touch her feet at all?

Abea, same thing with the syringe but what I would do is use that syringe as a microphone and pretend I'm singing into it. If Emmy tries to look, turn away and tell her it's not for her. This has worked on multiple items with Zazu, Nikki and Gypsy. It sounds silly but it works. It really is a case of using approximations to shape the behaviour I want which is the bird drinking from the syringe. Don't use water though, use organic juice. I give my birds warm, organic grape juice every night. That's like their little glass of antioxidents. You need a more powerful reinforcer than plain old water. Of course, there might be a bird who finds water more reinforcing than juice but if water is something the bird has access to all day then juice should be more of a reinforcer.

Any questions?

Learning how to do a Functional Analysis correctly will help you with any future problem behaviours so it is a very, very, very good tool to have in your toolbox.



Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#209770 - 10/01/09 07:25 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Thank you for your suggestions, Bev. Emmy lets me briefly touch her feet when she is away from her cage. I’ll try the treat with an emory board and singing with the syringe. Yes, she always wants what she can’t have. I’ll also look for other things she will drink. I haven’t really introduced anything else for her to drink so right now it’s just water and only in her cage. We’ll take little steps at Emmy’s pace.

Abea

#209771 - 10/01/09 09:37 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: emmy]  
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So when she allows you to touch her feet, however briefly Abea, reinforce it by giving her a treat or something she values so she associates good things with the foot touch.

Bev

PS: Can you videotape yourself singing into the syringe so we can see? LOL It really is effective with my birds though and I don't care how silly it is. I'm the woman who put velcro around her ankles because Zazu liked it. LOL


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#209772 - 10/01/09 09:39 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Would everyone (anyone) like for us to break it down and explain in more detail the componenets of a Functional Analysis - the Background information, Antecedent, Behaviour, Consequence and Possible Future Behaviour?


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#209775 - 10/02/09 12:47 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Yes please - I'm OK with Background, Behaviours, Consequence and PFB - it's the Antecedent that trips me up. And to be honest, when writing mine I really wanted to explain everything in detail but I've noticed that the examples Bev and EM gave were more concise.

Thanks

Juliana


Juliana
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#209792 - 10/02/09 03:21 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Fancy'sMum]  
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I am sorry everyone, I was gettng way ahead of myself. We absolutely will go back over each and every step until everyone understands and please, please if you have any suggestions on how we can make this better for you, let us know. I know it can seem overwhelming but once you get it, you will see how simple it really is and I'm going to tell you, it took me awhile before I really got it. I used to think there was something wrong with me because I didn't understand what was being taught and that's why I'm doing it differently. This is all about helping you have a better relationship with your birds and you can if you start using the tools you learn from Applied Behavioural Analysis. That is a promise. Don't be afraid to say you don't understand something. If I had a dime for every time I had to say that, I could be retired and living in Bora Bora. LOL There's still lots I don't understand but I keep reading and reading and going back over stuff until I do understand.

I know you can do this.

Juliana, if I do something that you don't understand, please ask. You stepped up to the plate for Fancy and attempted something that I should not have asked you to do without completely understanding what the steps were to do it. Well done!!! You should be really proud of yourself for that, OK?

Any questions before we start taking our first baby step to learning about ABA?

Bev


EM, if I get ahead of myself again, you have my permission to reign me in. LOL


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#209827 - 10/02/09 11:57 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Bev,I have printed everything you put in ABA and read it often. When it comes down to typing it all out here is where I have a problem putting it so people understand. I am making progress with Eddie and will keep you updated when our progress gets to another level. I guess you would have to meet Eddie to understand our situation better. Not sure if ABA will be the solution but not going to count it out yet.

#209838 - 10/03/09 06:34 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Doubleyolk]  
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If you learn how to implement a Functional Analysis and understand what that is, and do it correctly, it has to succeed. It's a science, Joe. The pure truth. It's used to change schizophrenic behaviour, it can change the behaviour of many types of mentally ill patients, it can change the behaviour of a 6 month old baby and it can change Eddie's behaviour. But it all depends on you. You will have to change the most and that is key.

If there was someone who didn't like you but the food on your table depended on that person liking you, what would you do?

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#209926 - 10/05/09 11:17 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Triscuit's Functional Analysis

Background: Triscuit (Goffin) has become more and more squawky over the past 15 months. We had moved into a new house, and for the first four months, he was the model of perfect behavior. Since then, he squawks for attention more and more, louder and louder. Got a second Goffin about 6 months (female, about the same age). Behavior hasn't changed, but gotten worse, even with trying all the methods described on this board. Obviously, I'm doing something wrong, not him smile

Antecedent: Triscuit is in his cage and know's I'm home (he can hear or see me).

Behavior: He vocalizes. First, it is acceptable vocalization (hellos, whistles, but it quickly turns into squawking (not the displaying kind, but the "come get me" kind).

Consequence: If I am not in the same room, I try to respond to the contact call (if I can) and ignore the squawking. If I am in the same room, I respond to the contact calls, but put him in a time out for 1 minute if he squawks.

I used to ignore but realized I was still somehow reinforcing it. I've been trying the time out method to see if it helps. By time out, I immediately say "don't" and then move him to his sleeping cage in another room. I only leave him there for a minute and then return him to his cage and tell him he's a good bird.

Last edited by Triscuit; 10/05/09 11:27 PM.
#209941 - 10/06/09 04:02 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Triscuit]  
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Will take a look at this tomorrow but right off the top, the vocalizations should never be allowed to escalate. Is he in the cage this whole time?

So the target behaviour is not that he vocalizes but that it escalates into "squawking", right?

Time outs don't work unless it is time out from positive reinforcement.

I think I know what is going on here but I need you to be able to figure it out. You are also ahead of the game because you realize you are reinforcing it. Good call!!! We can work on that.

I am going to break down the Functional Analysis because I really need everyone to understand the steps before they try to put one together.

Good try though!!!

Bev

Bev


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#209984 - 10/06/09 08:39 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Thanks, Bev. I'll keep watching this thread and submit a new functional analysis as needed. You helped me with this a few months ago, too, but I haven't done the whole applied behavior approach yet (though I have read all the articles on here and bought the book).

Yes, the target behavior is the escalation into squawking. He has plenty of vocalizations that are acceptable, most of which I love hearing. I would say this behavior happens 95% of the time, while in his cage. Occasionally, he will do this while out playing but it may be playful squawking. So for now, I'm trying to focus on the in-cage squawking.

#209988 - 10/06/09 09:21 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Triscuit]  
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So Trisquit's person, LOL you need to fill up that attention tank because that's what this bird is telling you. This is a very common mistake we make. The thing is you need to nip that in the bud before Trisquit takes it too a new level. Is there any reason that he is in the cage while you are home. Is it necessary for him to be in the cage? My birds are never in their cage while I'm home. Just curious.

Can you tell me what a typical day is like in Trisquit's life?

Bev


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#210064 - 10/07/09 06:22 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Background:

Background is what is going on in the environment that may affect the behaviour of your bird. Say for example your problem behaviour is screaming and you have a bunch of teenagers acting up in the room. That may contribute to the screaming. Now if there is nobody in the room, then you have to look at other things that are reinforcing the screaming. So it helps to have a look at what is going on when the problem behaviours are occurring.

Antecedent:

The antecedent is what happens immediately before the behaviour and we are talking in seconds not minutes. For example if the problem behaviour were biting and my Functional Analysis would go like this:

Background: Bev is getting ready to go to work and requests that Sally step up.

Antecedent: Bev presents hand

Behaviour: Sally bites Bev’s hand

Consequence: Bev pulls hand away

Possible Future Behaviour: Sally will bite Bev more often so Bev will remove her hand.

My hand is the antecedent that sets the occasion for the bite to happen. Sally cannot bite me if my hand is not there. Make sense so far?

Target Behavior:

The target behaviour must always be filled in first. This is the behaviour you want to modify/reduce/change or the problem behaviour. It can also be used to increase a behaviour you want to see more of.

Consequence:

The consequence is what your bird is getting out of it. The consequence is what reinforces the behaviour. It could be your attention/something else in the environment/or food to change/reduce/modify. We use primary reinforcers and secondary reinforcers (whatever the bird finds most reinforcing) to change the behaviours we do not want. It does not matter what you think, it is the bird who decides what is reinforcing to them. You can’t say he doesn’t like that or he’s not food motivated. If he eats, he’s food motivated. We have to look at everything going on in the environment to modify behaviour.

Possible Future Behavior:

Will the target behaviour increase or decrease? In the above Functional Analysis, it will increase because removing my hand will be reinforcing to Sally and she will continue to bite so that she does not have to go into her cage.

Now to change this up:

Background: Bev is getting ready to go to work and requests that Sally step up.

Antecedent: Bev asks Sally to step up

Target Behaviour: Sally steps up

Consequence: Bev gives Sally a pine nut

Possible Future Behaviour: Sally will step up more often to get a pine nut.

Now the thing you have to realize is:

1. I set up Sally’s cage so it’s a fun place to be. (Environmental change)

2. Pine nuts are a high value primary (food) reinforcer to Sally because she only gets them for requested behaviour. (I use what I know Sally values)

3. I set Sally up to succeed because when she succeeds, I succeed. It’s a win-win.


Any questions?

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#210065 - 10/07/09 06:36 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Typical day for Triscuit ...

Gets up at 9am (cuddle briefly) before moving to his big cage.

I start working (I work from home) and he plays in his cage.

On my lunch break, he comes with me when I take a shower. He doesn't shower every day, but perches in the bathroom and plays with his reflection in the mirror sometimes. He then gets some apple and banana while I make lunch.

I go back to work and he goes back to his cage. He may start screaming in the afternoon, especially as I get closer to finishing work (around 5:30). Throughout the afternoon, I try to positively reinforce his behavior when he is playing and/or being quiet. I give him a sunflower seed and scratch his head.

Around 6, he comes out of his cage and typically stays out with me until he goes to bed (around 8pm). He'll play some, watch me make dinner, perch on a chair looking out the window. I've tried letting him eat with me, but sometimes I put him in his cage to eat, depending on what I'm eating (eg. dont let him near any tomato sauce or there will be sauce everywhere!).

After dinner, he comes out and plays more energetically. I swing him on a towel and he flaps his wings and screams (which is fine) and uses a lot of energy. We cuddle some right before bed (though he's less interested in cuddling in the evening).

That's his typical day. On the weekends, it's a little different, since I tend to be away from home more often.

Out of cage time is close to 3 hours. I've tried letting him out with me while I work, but he's just too rambunctious. Plus I have a second Goffin, who I try to be equally as attentive to, but I wouldn't be able to work at all while they were both out. The Goffins are so energetic and are all over the place (mostly on me and my computer) if they aren't in their cage while I'm working).

I've been trying to give him more attention but it seems to have made the screaming worse, when I'm not giving him attention. In some ways, I'm afraid I'm spoiling him too much and he is becoming more and more impatient when he's not getting attention.

Anyway, I hope you can help us. Some days seem unbearable until they go to bed, even though the problem behavior isn't all day. This week seems to be more difficult than most. Screaming throughout the day, unless he are out of his cage. He's got new toys, foraging devices, etc.

Thanks

Michael

#210080 - 10/07/09 08:08 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Triscuit]  
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Michael, how about you take a break before the screaming begins/escalates. A 15 minute break to have an aerobic session with Trisquit. Help him burn off some energy. By the time I get home from work Zazu is actually doing circles in her cage. Up the side, over the top, down the side, over and over and over again until I let her out. Nikki goes into a silly spasm and starts flipping her wings and grabbing the swing over her cage. I swear if you could harness that energy, you'd make a fortune. Zazu flies all over the place when I let her out. Nikki will start crying for a little bit because she can't fly. That energy has to go somewhere. Burning off some of that pent up energy may help then back in the cage with some treats and a special toy.

Sound like a plan?

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#210084 - 10/07/09 09:05 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Sounds good, Bev. I will take a break now and give that a try and continue it. Maybe that will make him a happier bird! Thanks!

#210140 - 10/08/09 03:25 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Triscuit]  
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Is there a reason people aren't participating? You are not going to be able to learn how to solve problem behaviours unless you understand a Functional Analysis and how to do one. If you don't want to continue, just let me know.

Talk to me.

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#210144 - 10/08/09 04:04 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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I don't have any problem behaviors but I have been reading these with great interest.


Whoever coined the term "bird brain" was probably projecting.
#210168 - 10/08/09 08:25 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: JBryan]  
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Oh me too Bev, I read everything you write! I just dont have an issue at this time. I also thought that during these threads we were not suppose to post, I totally bow to you and EM. What I do know I learned from the two of you.

In August I posted my only issue with Ozzy, and what you and EM suggested has worked perfectly. Ozzy now allows me to work at my computer every afternoon while on his playstand. No more chasing a silly Too around hehe. I fill up his attention tank prior work time, and once I am finished. A little positive reinforcement during as well.

I am actually racking my brain to come up with something, cause I dont want to see this training end. I know tomorrow can bring a new unwanted behavior and I will need you guys lol.


Deborah
A Too is not a pet, it is a choice for life!


#210170 - 10/08/09 08:37 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FeatheredAngels]  
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What if my wife has a behavior issue?

Oh, never mind.


Whoever coined the term "bird brain" was probably projecting.
#210171 - 10/08/09 08:46 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: JBryan]  
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JB, I have one word of advice for you.


Diamonds.

And if she reads what you just said "lots of big diamonds". LOL

I'll figure this out, Deborah, don't worry. It is too important to all the parrots out there to let it go. And what you said is music to my ears. No problems with a cockatoo. Priceless.... LOL

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#210172 - 10/08/09 09:11 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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ohhh I want diamonds too hmmm gonna have to start having issues lol.

Bev from your training I have learned that Ozzy has no issues. It is we the humans that have tried to put a square peg into a round hole that causes the issues. Every time we step back and view the situation from Ozzy's point of view, the answer is readily there (many times we need help viewing the situation lol). We don't change Ozzy, we change how we do things. Ozzy is a very normal rambunctious Too, and we wouldn't change that for the world. Without yours and EM's patient guidance through functional analysis, we wouldn't be as adjusted as we are today.



Deborah
A Too is not a pet, it is a choice for life!


#210173 - 10/08/09 09:16 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FeatheredAngels]  
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Bev, I got the diamond thing covered. You are right about that one. It is a primary reinforcer for her.


Whoever coined the term "bird brain" was probably projecting.
#210313 - 10/10/09 06:57 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: JBryan]  
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I love reading these threads and have learned a lot, so I will share mine. Here is a simple one I have had some success with: (please don’t laugh too hard when you read it :))

Missy’s Functional Analysis

Background: Missy (M2) adopted 1 yr ago. When I leave the bathroom door open and sit down you-know-where, if she sees this, she charges up and tries to climb up me. I try to get her to step up on my hand and sometimes receive a nip because she wants to sit in my lap for some weird reason.

Antecedent: I sit down you-know-where.

Behavior: Missy tries to scramble into my lap.

Consequence: Missy gets into my lap because I don’t want to be nipped or scratched.

Possible Future Behavior: Missy will try to climb in my lap more often.


Solution:
I close the door when I go to the bathroom, thus removing the antecedent.

An interesting follow-up to this is now when I have accidentally left the door open a couple of times, she hasn’t tried to climb up on my lap.

I really want to work more on having her get in her cage willingly on a consistent basis too - I will try and come up with an analysis for that also.


We are owned by Keesha (U2), Missy (M2), & Chloe (African Red-Bellied)
#210367 - 10/11/09 05:34 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: pharmher]  
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Good try Pharmher!!! And I'm sure all of us have been in that same "position". LOL

OK, we need environment/behaviour/environment.

The target behaviour is: Missy tries to climb up your leg, right? The antecedent is what sets the occasion for the behaviour to happen and that would be you sitting down on the toilet. The consequence or reward for Missy is getting on your lap. And you were spot on that Missy will try to climb in your lap more often as long as she finds being in your lap reinforcing. The first thing that comes to mind is maybe a nesting behaviour because you said she didn't do it when you accidentally left the door open, right?

Antecedent: Pharmher is on the throne (LOL)
Behaviour: Missy climbs Pharmher's leg
Consequence: Pharmher allows Missy on lap

PFB: Missy will climb Pharmher's leg more often to get on her lap.

But you have already solved it with a simple antecedent change (keep bathroom door closed) and that is excellent.

Can you explain this a bit more "I really want to work more on having her get in her cage willingly on a consistent basis too".
Tell me what happens.

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#210424 - 10/12/09 01:51 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Well, this may be long, but I would like to be as complete as possible and provide all the necessary information for you.

We are owned by 3 parrots: U2 Keesha (been with us ~8yrs), African Red-Bellied (been with us ~4 years), and M2 Missy (came to us 1 yr ago). Missy is 18yr old, and was with one owner who gave her up because Missy - began to pluck, scream, etc because her owner couldn’t spend enough time with her. She is a super-sweet bird who, as far as we are concerned, really just wanted more interaction.

The one situation where I feel I am most challenged with her is when I go to put her in her cage before I leave for work. I work evenings (start at 1:30PM), so “typical” day starts at about 9AM:

9AM Erin gets up and makes coffee, she and all 3 (M2 Missy, U2, African Red-Bellied) birds go into office and they get lots of love & scritches.

10AM Erin goes to work out in basement, all 3 birds come too as they each have a perch down there to sit on.

12:30 PM Erin gets dressed for work and goes to put birds in cages prior to leaving. Sometimes Missy does not want to go in cage and tries to climb up to Erin’s shoulder or nips/grabs my hand/arm. She never out-and-out bites me (thankfully), and I continue to put her on my hand and place her inside her cage, encouraging her to step up on her perch. I try not to reinforce any negative behavior such as petting her when she won’t get in or walking away. I remain persistent and eventually she will get into her cage, upon which I give her lots of praise and a scritch (if she will let me – sometimes she’s to pissed off at me). Ironically, she never screams once she is in her cage – she either starts playing or sitting on her perch. The other 2 birds are never a problem.

I think that the antecedent in this “drama” is my changing clothes in preparation for leaving. Initially, I started putting the birds in their cages prior to changing pants because every time I went to put on my pants, Missy would jump on the floor and get aggressive, tugging on my pants and biting at my feet. That helped for a while. Next I started trying to put a food reward (grape) in her cage, showing it to her, and then asking her to go in. That worked for 2-3 days, then she started acting out when I put a new shirt on. Today, I placed a baby banana (showing it to her) and a shredder toy in her cage prior to putting her in her cage, and it worked.

So, I guessing I need to have a variable “arsenal” of enticements to get her to want to go into her cage, since removing the antecedent (me going to work) isn’t an option, unless she wants to pay the bills .


We are owned by Keesha (U2), Missy (M2), & Chloe (African Red-Bellied)
#210434 - 10/12/09 06:10 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hi Bev, Sorry I've been out of town and computer limited. I have a somewhat goofey question. I have been traveling with my flock and while we were visiting my hubby decided to view these pages and now tells me that I am spoiling the birds and rewarding unwanted behavior. I love that Kernal is a clown and the fact that he is a velcro bird doesn't bother me I feel honored. Here's the story.
I let all the birds out while I'm home when it's time for Kernal to go in he doesn't want to. Sometimes I have to pry his feet off the cage.
While visiting I learned that if he has his last snack of the evening while on me he will go in with much less resistence. So I've been using this to get him in at other times, giving him a snack while he sits on me then I can place him in the cage while he is eating it. Am I screwing up?
My original goal was to get Kernal to push the dump truck. He did but then chewed the wooden wheels off. Cracked me up. Thanks Deb

#210436 - 10/12/09 06:26 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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What unwanted behaviour does your husband think you are reinforcing?

Does he go in the cage willingly when he gets his snack on your? What does "much less resistance" look like. Can you explain that to me so I can "see" it?

And you probably reinforced the chewing up of the wheels by laughing at him, right? LOL I've done that many times.

Usually when a bird does not want to step up to go to bed there is an attention tank deficit. I went through this same thing with my grey except she started to bite me. That was a few years ago and she now steps up for a few kind words and a pine nut or two. When I see hesitation in her, I know I'm not spending enough time with her and I don't mean lots of time. Like 10 minutes or so.

I used to have to pry Zazu's feet off Sally's cage but now I just tell her how beautiful she is, sing a song, dance a little and she will step up. The reward for Zazu is either a head scratch or a pine nut. She chooses which one.

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#210437 - 10/12/09 06:29 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Erin, can you start spending 1/2 hour with her before you put her in the cage. Play some games, dance/sing, even target train her.

As I told Deb, the refusal to go in the cage can mean you aren't spending enough time with me or her attention tank is low. Does the cage have lots of interesting things to do? You could also put a treat bowl in there and put several of her favourite treats (small pieces or a nut she likes)in a bowl so there is a reward for going in there.

Do this for one week and let me know how it goes. You could even try 15 minutes of one-on-one time. Make it special though.

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#210441 - 10/12/09 07:26 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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I will certainly give it a shot. I had been thinking that since she is out with me from the time I get up until the time I leave that that was enough, but like you said, maybe more direct rather than passive interaction with her will do the trick.


We are owned by Keesha (U2), Missy (M2), & Chloe (African Red-Bellied)
#210451 - 10/12/09 10:42 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hi Bev
What unwanted behaviour does your husband think you are reinforcing? "Kernal wanting to hang out and be with me" I find this adorable and love it. This to me is the ultimate complement.

No he doesn't always go willingly in at night. Often I have to pick him off of my shirt.
I don't know about the attention tank being low. If he was with me much more he woould be an appendage. Our (typical) schedule
Wake up about 8 AM
make warm breakfast of oatmeal, fruit & a veggie (water and pellets are available 24/7)
BB is always on top of his cage but Gretta and Kernal sleep in another room so I go say good morning and open the cages, Kernal climbs right on me and gretta runs to the back. I wheel Gretta's cage out into the kitchen feed the dog & birds and I have my coffee everybody yells and jumps and are happy then they nap. Gretta comes out for breakfast and play and cuddle time with Kernal then she goes in for a nap and he comes to me. We just go through the day together. The only time I don't allow him on me is going outside in the open. We play talk fix lunch which is a non cooked meal whatever house work needs doing he helps like vacuming and doing dishes.
we have snacks through out the day he comes and goes as he pleases but never going into a cage. Dinner and play time come then around 8:30 (time varies on their mood) Kernal will go to the top of Gretta's cage and yell untill either the lights are out and everybody goes to bed or he gets put in his room. He doesn't bite but will open his beak at me like to threaten but I just talk nice to him. Then act like I am opening a package he'll fly to me (note: this is the time that I call and snap my fingers and he will land as requested I figured I may as well try something)he gets his reward/snack something differnt than shared with Gretta then either he will go in his cage when I go over and lean or he will run around on me. When he will NOT step up at this time he will roll his head to one side chatters (open and closes) his beak but no noise rubs his head on me and digs his feet in. I have had to take my shirt off to get him in at times.
Much less resistance is he just walks on in the cage with snack in beak. he doesn't screach or anything once in the cage as long as it's bed time. Seems he just doesn't like to be in a cage. He isn't always very active when out some days are slower and he just sits on me other days he's like a jumping bean on coffee all over me and agitating anyone who comes near. I'm telling you I just love this guy too much.
Sorry to ramble did I give a clear picture? Beside the fact hubbs is a nut job. Thanks Deb

#210482 - 10/13/09 03:28 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Actually Deb it is not a good thing for him to be with you all the time and it sounds like he is. What you want is Kernal to step up willingly to go into his cage, right? I think teaching him to be a bit more independent would be a good thing for him, Deb even though I know you love having him on you. This bird might believe you belong to him. Can your husband take him off you?

How old is Kernal and how long have you had him?

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#210486 - 10/13/09 04:18 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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I believe that I got him end of april, he & Gretta came from an abusive second home after the original owner died. I was told they are both 25 years old and have been together forever. Anyone can handel him, he is extremely tolerant yet clearly displays his like or dislike of something by hacking with his beak if it's someone he doesn't want to go to. In a room of people he will go from person to person and sit on their knee or shoulder, arm of the chair where ever they want him as long as they give him scratches on his head, not in a flighty way but calmly work the room.
My husband and most others can come sit with me or take him from me if they are more interesting at the time. Matter of fact when hubbs picks him up often he will roll ove in his hand like to be swaddeled like a baby. He adores men but is starting to choose me over others now and single me out of the house of people.
When he is on me he doesn't like other animals on me I can pet the dogs or other birds & they can sit next to me or on my feet but can not climb on me.
He seems to use me for his "HEY WHAT YA DOING" buddy. Today I am back home in DE it is just 3 parrots the dog & myself. Kernal has only been on me maybe 1/2 hour today but it has been cloudy & he has been napping allot today. Also when his attention tank is low he does a baby cry just one or 2 until you ask what's wrong then he'll fly to you. This only happened maybe 8 times since I've had him and they were days he was on lock down most of the day till late afternoon.

I have to ask a real BAD question do you realy think this is bad?

He seems like a dream bird after living with the others I have taken in in years past. And after reading stories here if I could make a shopping list there is really nothing I could add to it that I would like in a bird. He's extremely social, very tolerant easy to entertain and always hangs with me. But if I am spoiling him by spending to much time with him then I gotta back off. Up until now he will tolerate extended times in his cage when needed without any show of disapproval like when we are outside doing yard work they will call to me or BB will Hey Hell-o Deb Deb I answer and they are good until something startles them or an abrupt change like truck passing by.
Kernal is very attracted to my nephew who is the appointed gardian and director of all my creatures after my passing. We have everything set up for that and he even spends special alone time with Gretta on visits.
AWWWWWWW if I could just see the future and freeze frame the good stuff. Help me I'm soooooo confused.
I thought getting them their own coffee cups (warm juice diluted with water) and dishes for sitting at the table eatting was a good thing (you know boundries your dish my dish).They get so excited over morning juice.
So okay I guess I gotta learn to encourage him to be off of me more. That I can do but then what about the tank thing won't he feel rejected?
Thanks for you patience in trying this out with me. Deb

#210503 - 10/13/09 03:04 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deb, the thing I am concerned with is over-bonding. You really haven't had him that long although he does seem like a wonderful bird. I have no problem with your birds eating with you, mine eat with me. I have special routines with my birds too (their juice is in the evening) but as I tell Zazu all the time, I'm not a bus and I don't want her riding around on my shoulder whenever she feels like it. LOL My concern is how much time he spends on you and that after spending all that time with you, he still will not step up willingly to go into his cage.

This is not about doing something bad to him Deb, it's about letting him be a bird sometimes.

I know you love him, that is very clear but he needs to learn to play by himself.

Why was he on lock-down?

This is the sentence that bothers me more than anything "he is starting to choose me more over others".

And what will you do when he starts to defend you as his territory?

We need to nip just this one particular behaviour of him being on you all the time in the bud and teach him to step up to go into his cage when you want him to not when he wants to, OK?

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#210512 - 10/13/09 05:12 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Bev, Do you think that the bonding of he & Gretta could be a part of this? The people that left him said that he & Gretta can share a cage (3x3x2) but he will steal her food. When I picked the birds up they were each in a seperate small cage with a cup of seed for any size bird (small cheap seeds).
I gave them instsant freedom when they got here found out their habbits like the wood chewing, nesting on & on. Set up a room for them and made it safe.
Around June my Dad who is 80 started to have strokes so it was off to MD for several weeks. My family is there and everyone is an animal person mostly due to me having animals come show up at my home there needing a bath and a meal maybe some meds and someone falls in love & takes them home. Picture is lots of assorted animals around. When I would go to the hospital for my Pop. Kernal and all the others would be locked in their perspective cages, dog room, rabbit hutch whatever. I use the term lock down for any period over say 3-4 hours (that's a long time alone if you are a social creature)with the exception of sleep time. It's a term picked up from working in a controlled enviroment with teens. My family understands that if I say 'in their cage or box" that they are there by choice but if I say I got them on "lock down" family and a few close friends will offer to stop in and check out all of them while I'm away.
I too am worried of over bonding, but back to the start When Kernal is out he sits on Gretta's cage not his. She spends lots more time inside then out by choice. I must seperate them when I am not around (seperate cages next to each other) He doesn't take her food. He eats like a pig out of both or all 3 dishes what he wants. Will peck or nip at her and the one time I left them out in the bird room together she had 4 plucked spots that bled one on each side of her chest and one on each of her wings. Since adding a 3rd dish Gretta has started her change in behavior, she no longer hangs on the side waiting for him to finish nor does she grab a piece of food and run. Now they do ring around the food dishes. She so reminds me of an over dominated wife. No offence ment to anyone but I have been working with and observing behaviors and patterns for years and so odd how some behaviors are common in many species. Anyway he seems to have chosen me as a saftey factor more than me being his only person. First choice is the top of Grettas cage then me then a high spot an example is when Macy a 110 pound shepherd came in. Unless food is involved Gretta is always first choice and he will spread wings and crouch with open mouth and hiss if I approach her cage to quick or mistakenly bring my hand from above.
He will not step up he will run to the top of his cage and hold on. He actually leaves his position and goes to his cage but not in. I allow him to sleep on her cage when we are in DE since they have their own room but cannot allow this when we travel.
So no matter what I need his co-operation with stepping up. I'm hoping that I'm not ignoreing something because I am concerned about the bonding I just figured since Gretta was in the picture surely he wouldn't be a bigot ya think??
He will play alone an example I took a set of wooden spoons tied with jute strung around knobs, looped through things after a day he had undone all I left it sit 2 days later he's climbing up the colum trying to wrap the jute and 1 spoon around the cabinet knob this occupied him for a good part of the afternoon.
I had myself convinced that hubby was just jelous since he's the one who has taken all the bites through the years and now we have a cling on. And that Kernal was a stick on because we haven't been very settled as a flock since I've had them we have had to travel several times and I am the one staple in their life. I always show up with food and drink for them even when Ive been gone awhile.
I can keep him off of me when we are in DE as they are most comfortable here. But I hate to always push him away (put him on a play stand ) what if he stops liking me. It hasn't been long enough for me to sop up all the feather tickles and snuggles my Zon is to manly to do. My amazon is bonded with me only and this is an issue with others because he speaks so well and sounds so cute but has in the past chased people out of the house and is known as killer. That I don't want to live through again.
Okay Proffessor (said with LOVE) what do ya think......total wack job??

#210516 - 10/13/09 05:28 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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No, you are the one who has to live with the decisions you make. If you are happy with the way he is, then that's that. If the only behaviour you want to see more of is the step-up for going into his cage, that's what we will work on.

Now what are his favourite foods?

Bev


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#210519 - 10/13/09 06:52 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Bev his favorite is anything that doesn't move fast enough to get eatten.. fresh oranges, warm drinks and pasta.
I gave ya a long story knowing that you could look not through rosie glasses like I am. Kind of asking if it sounds like I am letting things go to far in your opinion.
Non of us are here forever and after hearing and seeing what folks go through trying to help these poor guys I want to make it as easy as possible on all parties involved. I know BB will have a hard time his only saving grace will be his independence unless he gets better at being social (LOL).And he has been around my nephew since nephew was born so there is mutual respect.
From the tone of your last post I will try to limit my entertaining and cuddeling of him so much. It's just so darn nice feels like after years of churning butter finaly a little taste of sweet on my crust ya know. Thank you Bev.

#210520 - 10/13/09 07:04 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Zazu and Nikki would be grafted to my body if I allowed them. Gypsy and Sally like to be with me but not on me, although Sally does occasionally like to be on my shoulder when I am on the computer. This is an earned privilege at my house. You have only had this bird for 6 months. I really, really believe that teaching him some independence is a good thing - for you and for him. OK from the sounds of it, not so much you. LOL How many homes has he had and why did he lose his home/s?

Now how about saving some of his favourite things and putting them in his cage at bedtime so he has something to look forward to when he goes in there. You have to remember though the special treat must be removed from his regular diet and he only gets it when you get the behaviour you want.

Bev


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#210521 - 10/13/09 07:48 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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I am their 3rd home that I know of. Man & wife original owners for 25 years wife passed man was busy with horses several months later feels bad and gives Gretta and Kernal to a man (60)and wife (23) with the understanding if they can't keep them they go back home. 2nd lady winds up on crack pipe sells everything husband gets mad kicks her out. 1 bird put into a cooler and sat on by 3 year old child and suffocated, 1 kitten also gets killed. Budgie to be set free, dog taken to out of town rescue?? 2cnd cat set free, wife & husband reunite move to georgia leaving the lanlord (my parents) thousands of dollars in damages and back rent. Kernal & Gretta were with them from Nov until end of April when they came with me. They were the first to go that way if she used her cell the husband knew she was not home due to the screaming of the birds so through my Mom she called me and I went to get them. They gave me a bad report that they bite and scream all the time even offered to give me the little girls squirt bottle. Wife had to keep hers for the other animals. I didn't plan on keeping them just fostering until they were acceptible pets or someone had the heart for them.
My routine is after observation give the bird limited freedom in supervised room watch reactions and leave them be so as not to overwhelm usually within 48 hours I can get a feel as to how needy or scared the bird (animal)is.
Well from day 1 Kernal being so outward and Gretta shaking like a leaf in the wind I fell in love. I actualy had a home lined up for them before I got them but I can't let these 2 go it's like even with gretta being so scared I can read her so easy it's like we all just fit together.
As for screaming and bitting I have not experienced that side of them. Also because they are so sweet and understand some verbal request I know somebody really loved these 2 and took time with them. You can't toss somebody's kids to the wolves. If I place their name infront of a request they acknowledge (may not do the request but react some how). At night I put my arm on the side of the cage and stand behind it ask Gretta please go to bed now and 8 times out of 10 she goes on first request wich is great because she won't let me touch her or come to me yet.
I'm scared someone hand reared these 2 and seeing how Gretta was with drawn I'd hate for Kernal to feel pushed away. He'd probaly get mean and pick himself. It's so hard to undo.
Putting special treats in his cage is a time he will sit there and out wait me honestly over an hour one night. As soon as I move to shut the door he runs out. He streched so far one night trying not to go in the cage he fell other times he goes all around like he's trying to break in so he can have the food and not be shut in. If I take him on my finger and put the dish and him in at the same time he does all he can to stay out including put his head in the door. I have tried 4 diff cages and 3 carriers he reacts the same to all of them .
What is the best approach in your opinion? I haven't given him oranges or warm juice for 2 weeks now so they will be of valu when we start.

#210522 - 10/13/09 08:20 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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I think you will have to shape this behaviour. First of all, you need to start bedtime early by 1/2 hour. Put his treats in there and don't shut the door. Let him come back out. Barb H has a DVD on training this very thing. I think it would be worthwhile for you to get it. I'm not sure which DVD it is but I have all of them so will look when I get home and let you know.

When he does go in to get the treat, you be sitting away from there. Praise him when he goes in but don't shut the door on him. He needs to learn that it's not a bad place to be.

Bev


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#210524 - 10/13/09 08:28 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Okay easy enough and I am not rushing but will I shut him in tonight or leave him out. What do I do after he gets the treat and comes out send him after another or just put him in?

#210525 - 10/13/09 08:29 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Gosh Bev I wasn't thinking "bad place" just he didn't like it. Duhh for me Thanks.

#210527 - 10/13/09 08:53 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deb, you could start during the day. Put all his favourite foods (spread them out) in the cage during the day, that way he has to go in and get them of his own free will and then gets to come out. Is the cage covered? Does he ever spend any time in the cage he sleeps in during the day?

Does he need to be shut in the cage at night for his safety? Or can he sleep on the cage OK?

Bev


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#210531 - 10/13/09 11:30 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hey Bev,
So tommorrow I'll start by cleaning the cage and then add a few of his favorites through out the day. Just take tonight as normal for now.
None of my birds sleep with a cover. Kernal can sleep on his cage safely as long as it's in his room. I won't let him stay out in the rest of the place in case I sleep late he would chew through the wall (already has 2 times). He spends zero time in any cage unless forced. He is well behaved in a cage if he doesn't hear food going on. I thought cocker spaniels were food motivated Oh my goodness. Or if he is in a room with no humans. He doesn't have a prefered toy I have baskets full he will chew wood but it seems like his toys are beneath him. If his cage is in the center or near the hub of activity then he will yell to get out.
I had stopped putting food other than pellets and water in their cages in their room due to ants at the beach in the summer. YUCK

#210555 - 10/14/09 06:04 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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I am going to jump in here and add my own personal experience with my U2, Alex and share what I believe to be the mistakes that I made with him, and how I have had to work to correct those mistakes, not for my well-being, but for his.

First a little of Alex's history. He was in his former home for all his life - about 20 years. At some point in time his caretaker (Joe) became overwhelmed and eventually was classified as a hoarder. Joe's other birds (all locked away in a separate room) were seized by local authorities but because of Joe's attachment to Alex, he was allowed to remain in the home, under the supervision of the AWC. The caretaker passed away and Alex was left in the residence alone until discovered by a family member. Alex was believed to be cage bound and aggressive, but I welcomed him here with open arms.

Within a few days of arriving here, he proved to be anything but cage bound and aggressive. He was (and remains) my snuggle bug. I wanted nothing more than to kiss all the "boo-boos" away and my maternal/nuturing instincts went into over-drive. He stayed on me, for hours on end, perfectly content to just sit in my lap, up against my chest, or on the arm of my chair. Never having had a snuggly cockatoo, I wallowed in the affection and failed to teach him independence.

About 6 months later, I began to reap what I had sewn - over bonding. Alex wasn't happy unless he was on me, and God forbid if I left his vision of sight. Even a quick trip to the bathroom or kitchen resulted in screaming. Then, aggression to the other members of the family began to manifest. If my girls, or even one of the other birds came near me, Alex had a problem with it. He does not lash out at them, but rather at me. "If you can't bite the one you want - bite the one you're with". Two years later, he still does sometimes. I do not allow my youngest girl to interact w/the birds unsupervised, but if I am home, my 19 y/o cannot handle Alex. If I am not home, he is fine with her. I have been bitten more times that I can count because Alex feels the need to protect his chosen one (me) from others. I have to be very careful if Alex is sitting with me (to this day) because if he sees anyone as an intrusion, someone is going to be bitten - and the majority of times it is me. As far as Alex is concerned, I belong to him. And that is not healthy.

It took me a while to realize the error of my ways, and it is now taking even longer to correct those errors. Believe me when I say that how ever well intended and unintentional, over-bonding is not good for the bird or their caretaker. I have learned from the mistakes I made with Alex and correcting them, is a process - just as changing any behavior is.

When I adopted Noelle last year (whose history is even worse than Alex's) I knew that no matter how much I wanted to right all the wrongs by holding her endlessly and magically make everything better, more than anything she needed to learn how to be a bird, not an appendage of me. She is trusting, loving yet, beautifully independent.

Our birds need to feel secure, loved and protected. But they also need to learn how to be birds.



Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#210563 - 10/14/09 03:48 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Okay I admit I was hiding behind the fact that he already had a bonded "mate so to speak" Gretta and wouldn't attach so closely to me. But since EM used some of my exact words well ya'll just whipped me with a wet noodle. I will be sure to establish a "proper Bird relationship"
Seriously Thank you for your input EM. I tend to rationalize to eternity but with 2 respected opinions I stand corrected.
I will be making changes now. Like I said I don't wish to make it hard for the future humans of these guys.

#210564 - 10/14/09 04:19 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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My Grey loves to sit on my shoulder and get her little head scratched while snuggling up to my face. She often tells me (body language) that she wants to as I pass by her cage. However, I reserve this for only limited times (mostly before bed) because I want her not to be too attached and have some independence. She is really good about it and just starts playing with her toys or something.


Whoever coined the term "bird brain" was probably projecting.
#210565 - 10/14/09 04:21 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Make small changes, Deb so as not to cause any unwanted behaviours. Start small and increase slowly, OK. This will be better for Kernal and in the end, you too because eventually his Royal Clinginess will get on your nerves. LOL

Bev


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#210580 - 10/14/09 06:58 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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You're very welcome Deb. I've been following your posts and some of the things you said could have been written by me 2 years ago.

I still let Alex to sit with me during the day, but I limit the time to 10-15 minutes, max. Then I take him to a gym or cage play top, give him a head scratch and hand him something to do. In the beginning he would head straight back to sit w/me again and sometimes he still does. If he persists, I put him in his cage with something fun to do and sing a little song and dance with him, which makes him happy. Before I put him in his sleep cage each night, we have our special time. For about 45 mins to an hour he sits on the bed with me. I pet him (appropriately), preen him and he lays his head on my chest, talks softly and makes kissy noises. With his attention tank full, he goes into his sleep cage w/out hesitation and puts a foot up against the front for one final foot massage before he goes to roost.

Like Bev said, make small changes so that you don't create any unwanted behaviors in the transition.

Your birds are lucky to have you.



Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#210700 - 10/16/09 01:22 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Boy this is tough. I spent most of the day on the computer with Greta & Kernal on the cage as usual. When K would come land on me I would chat with him, scratch what ever and take him back to cage after 15-20 minutes. Each time I gave him something either food or toy. He is now stuck to me rubbing his head up and down like a dog wanting scratches. Okay I scratch his head, and let him stay but then he goes to my shoulder and taps my head with his beak comes down to my chest grabs his head with one foot, my shirt with the other and rolls over in my shirt.he has done this several times. Come on too people is there a vacine for cuteness?

Thanks EM I can use all the guidance I can get.

Hi J
My amazon is good at not being clingy & very independent. He even has a great personality. He likes to tease and play. He will growl or bark like the dog when I go by if I have red or pink on. Sometimes he'll peck me I gently tug his tail and he goes awwwwwwww BB. When he wants me he calls me by nsme and that's cool. But these guys (toos) guess I just gotta get to know them. and we'll have fun fun fun....Deb

Last edited by Charlie; 10/16/09 02:01 AM. Reason: combine posts
#210940 - 10/20/09 03:59 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Too soon for permanent change? Maybe but small steps. I have been putting treats in all the cages so nobody picks good cage bad cage. Also I have been taking advatage when Kernal comes to me for a night time snack I hand it to him and let him sit with me to eat it then he steps up and I hold his toe with a finger while placing him in his cage and leave Gretta for last. This has been pretty neat. Since the first night K goes right in his cage he is also stepping up to come off the cage in the AM (only). This to me is BIG but even bigger is the suprise... Gretta becomes a diffrent bird with K out of the room. She hops, honks and spreads her wings.She use to just tremble and cling to the cage side to see where he was. But the last 2 days the more you cheer the more she does. She is pretty quiet for a bird so when she honks or mumbles it makes me smile. Anyway the other day she walked into the living room and I posted that, but today after they ate I was snuggling on the sofa trying to motivate. When Lo and behod here comes Gretta walking right over about 2 feet in front of me bends forward does a tiny "heddo" and starts hopping around. Back and forth in front of me for at least 5 minutes...not kidding all the way through to the next commercial break. And she isn't running compltely away now when I approach. She left the room when the dog came to see what was going on but came back down off the cage and looked after a few minutes to see where the dog was.
AHHHHHH sun is shinning Gretta is hopping it's gonna be a golden graham day!!

#210949 - 10/20/09 06:28 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Good, good update!!! I'm glad that both birds are doing so well - you are making good progress with both of them.

One word of caution though - no toe pinning. That takes away choices, damages trust and often leads to a bite. (I KNOW from experience).

Keep up the good work!

Last edited by EchosMom; 10/20/09 06:28 PM.

Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211097 - 10/23/09 11:34 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Okay so Kernal don't like going out of the house, I am sooo glad. He was in his flight suit & we went out on the screened porch (we are used to being there) as we approached the door Kernals posture got very straight. When we went out the door he imediatley tried to go back in. I know that I can never let my guard down and have put extra screen covers over the doors but knowing he doesn't want to go out, that the world is scary gives me some breathing space at least in my head.
Gretta has gotten in the position lately of standing close to me and watching Kernal and I interacting. She just stands still and watches it's kinda spookey but I guess she's working her way in. She actualy goes past the goodies to join us so it isn't food motivated. She has also started to come out of her room to the kitchen in the AM for breakfast. I used to have to wheel her cage out, who knows maybe the big play perch will get used eventually.

EM,
no toe pinch. Well he wouldn't go in the bedroom. So
Bev- is this okay.
I now go to the bed room with roller cage Gretta runs ahead and waits outside the bedroom, Kernal rides the top of the cage. I park the cage Gretta comes in and climbs up. Treat is in sleep cages. If I lay down and hide my hands both willcome to me and examine what I have if anything. Gretta gets close & Kernal will land on me. Then after about 15 min Gretta is in her cage, I put Kernal in his and good night.
This has been 2 nights so far K doesn't resist being put in. No toe pinch but kinda get him in before he resist.

#211105 - 10/24/09 03:25 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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What does this mean? Can you operationalize or describe what you are doing when you say this, " no toe pinch but kinda get him in before he resist".

If he is resisting, then you are taking away his free choice. Gretta seems to be coming along. What happens if you "ask" Kernal to step up?

Bev


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#211108 - 10/24/09 09:13 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hold
Pin
Pinch

All 3 words MAY have different meanings to us, to our birds it is a universal language - "you have no choice".


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211111 - 10/24/09 04:12 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Bev, Kernal will try to find my hidden hand wich results in him getting head scratches so he snuggles then after Gretta goes in I get up talking nice to him and lean towards the cage. He goes in with out a fight. If I approach the cage with him on my finger and do not have a finger on his foot or his back he will spread his wings and leave. If I allow him to climb off of me with it seeming like it's his decision he quietly goes good night.

I have always placed my finger on a toe or my hand on the back for guidence. Most of my cage doors are around chest height on me so that meabs like for Kernal he is decending (sorta) to get in the cage. With BB if I didn't do that he would flap to get to his cage often making it a clumsey landing.

Kernal just don't like to step up he will lay over to his side and turn his head up. I was thinking that with him going in nice. I've been getting him to step up to come out maybe we can later incorperate stepping into the cage. Once he doesn't mind going in. Kind of like going back an extra step? For now my hands stop at the cage door and I let him go in his self. Figureing that way he is the one resposible for finding the goodies inside and it is his choice to go in.
Is this a major screw up? My theory was to get him to accept the cage at bed time or when it is time to go in. Since I've been putting him in this way he doesn't scream at all (before he was upset to be put in he would scream and bang for a few minutes then quit. Now he just goes quietly good night.)

EM, I got your meaning that is why I quit holding his foot in any way. Thanks Deb

#211131 - 10/24/09 10:58 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Thanks for clarifying Deb. smile


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211142 - 10/25/09 06:29 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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If you are allowing him the choice of going in the cage on his own (no matter how you accomplish that), it is a good thing. I'm not sure what you are asking when you say "is this a major screw up"? Can you explain?

You absolutely can teach him to step up but first you need to earn his trust. You tricked him before. That's a no-no. LOL You must be honest in your dealings with him. If he's earned a treat, he gets that treat. If he's earned a tickle or a scratch, he gets that tickle or scratch. If you only ask him to step up to go into his sleeping cage, of course, he's not likely to step up but if you ask him to step up many times during the day (for a brief momen) and take him to do something fun, he will learn that when he gets on your hand, good things happen. Make sense?

Bev


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#211241 - 10/26/09 06:40 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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is this a major screw up"? Can you explain?

During the day Kernal will not step up as a rule. He will lay his head down and clatter his beak (not make noise just move it open and closed) that is if he is on an object. If he is on a person and I ask him to step up mostly he will but if he is on me or the sofa (next to me) and I ask him he digs his one foot in and puts his head down like a puppy if I ask again he will roll over still holding on with one foot and lay on his back. (is this typical behavior??)
So what I was asking is should I be working on the step up as opposed to getting him in the cage but after rereading it I guess what ever comes first is good. We got a life time no hurry.

#211243 - 10/26/09 06:42 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Thanks for asking.

#211249 - 10/26/09 07:02 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Personally, I think it sounds pretty damn cute but it seems to me he is saying "I want to stay with you".

Yes, you should be working on the step up because once he does that you can get him into the cage but the step up requires work, trust and honesty. If you only ask him to step up to put him back in his cage, then why should he step up but if you ask him to step up and you do something fun like dance or go look out the window, he will learn that stepping up means good things happen.

You might have to shape this behaviour. When you ask him to step up does he do what you said above every time? Does he always refuse to step up?

Bev


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#211255 - 10/26/09 07:32 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Originally Posted By: FunnyFarm
if I ask again he will roll over still holding on with one foot and lay on his back.


AWWWWWWW, that is pretty damn cute!!


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211260 - 10/26/09 08:36 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Hey Em & Bev, It is stinking cute and he does lots of stuff like that but it's all so he can shape my behavior. (hehehehe)

Bev, he only does that if I want to remove him from being near me. Like if I want him to let my guest eat in quiet on the sofa he won't leave or if it's something he don't want to do. If it is to be with me he comes along peacefully. It's like he can sence when things aren't going the way he wants.
If he wants to come out of his room he will give an uhhuhh chirp. I go he will step up then. If something makes him nervous or there is a change in the enviroment he will step up then. but he seems pretty independent that only when he wants to or he knows it is going to benifit him.
He never hesitates to put on the cute act to get what he wants. Rubs his head up and down your arm or burrows his head under your hand to rub it. Turns upside down with feet in the air, nibble your ear and roll off of your shoulder one of these days I need to watch the training trick video to see just what he may know and how to get him to do it. Some of his mannerisims are such as I've never seen. And have never had a bird as trusting as he is.
The way an adult would hold a baby in the crook of your arm with the baby on it's back is one of his favorite positions. Just play with his feet or rub his under beak and he's happy.
How would we shape his behavior and what do you mean by that.
You see none of this is an actual problem. I think he is almost perfect, but it is more pleasent for all of us if he goes to bed in his cage. Stepping up is nice too. But he doesn't mind being scooped up matter of fact he seems to like being held like an ice cream cone. Put your hand losely around the base of his body by the tail, tail in hand and his feet hold on to my thumb. Loves you to walk him around like this. Is he nuts???? Or just cute

#211264 - 10/26/09 08:50 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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But you are taking away his choice when you scoop him up. There is such a thing as learned helplessness and the bird does not even try to put up a struggle because they have learned that there is no point. Nikki was like that with a towel and even though in the beginning, I had no problem picking her up in the towel, it made me really uncomfortable. I told someone that I felt she had just given up trying to struggle because they picked her up in the towel anyway. I worked on the step-up and I waited some days for 5 minutes or I would walk away and come back and try again and now because I have paired myself with so many wonderful things, she steps up like a little trooper. Occasionally, she will hesitate and I wait because I want her to trust me. She must make the decision whether or not to step on my hand. In the morning, she's practically buzzing waiting for me to put her in her cage. It's incredible and it feels so much better than scooping her in that towel. Understand what I am trying to say?

Bev

He sounds wonderful but it could be even better.


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#211276 - 10/26/09 10:22 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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yes I understand and I do want it to be as good as it can.
So when I request he step up and he decides to jump on me/my shoulder or head instead of finger how should I address that? Just let it be or continue to try and get him on my finger at that time? wait until the next time?
Like when he flys to my head if I duck he just swoops around and comes back. Or when I ask him step up with a finger he looks at it and becomes a too broch. (not always just on occasion) Thanks Deb

#211297 - 10/27/09 02:36 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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You take him off over and over again until he gets it. I have been working with Zazu about flying to my shoulder uninvited. So I started telling her to "get off" and when she complies I praise her and give her some scratches. Now I just tell her to "get off" and she does. Most of the time she will fly off but 30 seconds later she's back again (she is a goffin LOL) but I can shape longer periods off my shoulder if it starts to bug me that much. Most of the time, I think it's OK but when I'm trying to do something and I have Zazu peeking over my shoulder, acting like my supervisor, it gets annoying. LOL

You need to teach him that when he gets on your hand, that is a good thing. What are his very, very favourite things/treats?

Bev


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#211301 - 10/27/09 03:58 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Okay so I should just keep some of his favorite treat within reach of ME all of the time so that when he does it instant reward and get him to repeat as many times as I can (without annoying him) then once he gets good at it, try it somewhere he isn't good at it like in his room. Build it by that?
As for the shoulder he holds on I have actually had to take my shirt off at times because he will roll up in it to hold on.
Ya know it's funny how they choose when to understand human and when not to. I can call any of them by name and only they will respond or come and if someone is say chewing on the curtains and I say hey knock it off they stop and the others just keep on what they are doing. They know.
I realize this isn't an exact science but I am already seeing some of the errors of my ways. Like I have spoiled them already in some ways I need to correct. Like not giving them boundries (mostly Kernal).

#211302 - 10/27/09 04:21 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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ABA is absolutely an exact science, Deb. It is the science of behaviour. And you were spot on in what you should do as in instant reward. Build it by that? Excellent, excellent. Try that and see what happens but those treats need to be very special and something that he is not getting all the time.

Things that are cute in the beginning can become annoying later on so best to set them up to succeed as soon as they come into our homes.

Bev


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#211306 - 10/27/09 06:00 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Okay I'll keep ya posted (haha) Thank you so much.

#211339 - 10/28/09 12:01 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Hey Bev-EM here's a wrinkle I didn't see comming. Kernal refused to step up today untill late after noon so he stayed in his room. Gretta on the other hand decided to come out. That's great she's been doing this for about a week now but today she didn't just walk into the living room and leave. She came she hung out, she left, she returned, she bounced on every piece of furniture. Has just hung out getting closer looks at stuff. I am so estatic.
Question- aside from no with cords and obvious behaviour guidence what type of boundries should I set with her? Not that, that is anytime soon but she goes in leaps with progress. And she is such a shutter bug (poor thing gets shakey at everything)I can't see ever pushing her away but I in no way want to cunfuse her. Am I making sence here? If it gets to the point she will cuddle like Kernal does how long is good..if I let him go till his tank is full he would never get off of me. I think EM referred to it as Royal clingyness. Are U2's more so than goffins? I know it's an individual thing and not trying to stereotype but there must be odds somewhere. In bringing a lovebug back around would there be a tendency to over compensate?
I didn't know the original owners but I'm getting more convinced that these guys were VERY well loved at one time. Gosh gretta was on the table and I didn't see her when I looked up I said where are you. She stuck her head up with a light "hello". There were 2 other animals and a person here and she was the only one responded. (Kernal was still in his room.) Thanks Deb

#211344 - 10/28/09 01:31 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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There are different types of attention Deb and the one that you want to concentrate on, and provide the most of is ambient attention. Meaning that your birds are a part of your everyday life - WITH you, but not ON you. I kept track yesterday for kicks. I had a bird on me the entire day for a total of 10 minutes. Now mind you, I don't ignore them. I stop and exchange pleasantries with them while I go about my day, inquire about their day, offer a head scratch or a treat, do a little dance with them, etc.

I have 4 species of 'Toos, Moluccans, Goffin's an Umbrella and an LSC. The U2 is by far the cuddle bug of the 6 of them. If I would let him, he would sit with me all day. But instead, he gets lots of ambient attention just as the others do, and I set aside about 45 minutes in the evening (just before I put him in his sleep cage) to sit with him on the bed. I also sit w/him for about 5 minutes, first thing in the morning when I get him out of his sleep cage, otherwise he will bite me when I walk him out to the familyroom.

There are lots of ways to make them a part of your day without having them ON you getting your complete, undivided attention. That is what you need to work on.

And I believe that his "Royal Clinginess" was Bev's description - LOL!


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211347 - 10/28/09 02:03 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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I believe that they get plenty of ambient attention. For 99% of the time they are only in their sleep cages maybe 8 hours tops with the doors secured. Once I am up I open and unlock then when they stir. They join me untill bed time. (boy do I love being retired)I bought one of those giant play perch/gym they just didn't seem interested then, maybe now is a good time to reintroduce it. Right now Kernal is trying to type and when I push his head away he rolls onto the key board. I have to leave it cracks me up. And Gretta has been looming over my shoulder I'll bet she has memorized the key board.
Kernal lasted an hour and a half sitting on me before he left today. So maybe that gives me an idea of what his minimum needs are going to be. So I should track it just to get an idea and perhaps shape that so it suits our life style.

Sorry about the mis-quote. It is a good one.

#211349 - 10/28/09 03:05 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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You have to get Kernel's rolling on video - I wanna see! Obviously the behavior has served him well in the past, and still is - LOL!

Deb, our birds need 10-12 hours of sleep each night. If they are in their sleep cages for 8 hours *maybe* they are falling well short of that. Perhaps you can put them to bed 1 hr earlier and get them up 1 hr later so you don't disrupt the routine too awful much?

How many times today did Kernel sit with you? And for how long each time? I know you mentioned a 1 1/2 hour session. Was that the only time?


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211351 - 10/28/09 04:52 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Yep I would love to get it on video. Maybe when my nephew comes or when they go to my mom's next month for vacation. I'm not camera savey anylonger frown.
Ya know I think you are correct. I have recently changed the schedule and they are getting less sleep.
Tonight they were in by 9:30. kernal didn't want to go he wanted to sleep on the back of the chair. Gretta went nice & BB he just does his thing.
So Tommorow let them be until they start calling? We really didn't have a time schedule routine. I just put them in when they start acting like they are ready (Gretta goes to the cage and Kernal cries like a baby) or I'm going to bed as early as 9-10 and as late as 12-1.
Kernal sat (on) with me only the one time today. He was staying in his room most of the time today he wouldn't step up or fly to me I asked him about every 30 minutes. I went to the other room, he could have come (as he has in the past) but he stayed and I didn't pick him up or give him a treat. If I didn't know better I would think he was challenging a battle of wills. Or sulking for some reason.
After he came out he sat on me about 1& 1/2 hours then moved to the stool and other places. Gretta on the other hand stayed within arms distance all day with bouts of playing on the furniture and jumping over the stripes on the rug. I've not seen her play like this before. She also ate well today. Somedays she doesn't seem to have much of an appitite. Since she's healthy I contribute it to lack of activety being so scared. Kernal seems to eat so much compared to Gretta she is so picky.

#211354 - 10/28/09 05:49 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deb, I want to start off by saying that from reading your posts, there is no doubt in my mind that Kernel and Gretta and two lucky birds!!!

The most common types of behavior problems that people need help with are birds whose attention tank is too empty, or birds whose attention tank knows no boundaries. Like Bev mentioned previously, there is a gentle balance in having a bird whose attention tank is filled, vs. one whose attention tank is NEVER filled (Royal Clinginess).

Deb, honestly Kernel sitting with you non-stop for 1 1/2 hours isn't good. Why you ask? Because when he's sitting with you he's missing out on the opportunity to be a bird. Ambient attention - I cannot stress that enough. I remember Charlie saying that his Baby, who is very bonded to him, is only on his physical being for a few minutes a day - and that is mostly for transport. There are many ways we can engage and interact with our birds, and make them feel loved and secure, without them having to be on us and having our undivided attention.

Believe me, I understand how happy and flattered you are that they are seeking interaction with you. As you should be. So captialize on that and use your influence, and love to guide them into being birds. They won't love you less for it - promise.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211356 - 10/28/09 06:50 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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BUT I'M such a good foot warmer.
I know you guys are correct that's why I'm here. Now that I need to keep Kernal off even more (I already felt like I was rejecting him) I spent a good bit of today making some toys and foreging things for them and tommorow I'll encourage perch play. But when he gets on me and won't let go how should I do this? Just take my shirt off with him attached or what? I mean he realy digs in and hunkers down. Thankfuly I have short hair when he gets on my friend it's terrible getting him off. I know he has to trust me and I shouldn't trick him nor should I have to but I do. On the occassion I've had to quickly put him away I'll walk to an area he is uncomfortable with and most times he'll fly off but not always.

#211357 - 10/28/09 02:56 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deb, you don't need to get all the behaviours you want at once. Baby steps (approximations) are a good thing because you can then move towards the final goal (shaping and then chaining). We actually do this all the time and just don't realize what we are doing. I mean in every day life.

Every time you trick Kernal, you are moving backwards. And that's why he won't do things for you because you've tricked him. You have to be honest in your dealings with him. He has to learn to trust that when you "say" you are going to do something, you do it.

For example, say your next door neighbour asks you to come over at 5 pm to give you some money and you go over there and they tell you they were joking. Then they did it again and you go again and they do the same thing so chances are you would stop going over there but if you went over there and they gave you $100, what would happen every time they asked you to come over? See what I'm saying? When you trick Kernal, it is the same thing. When you ask him to do something and he gets something he values out of it, then it's a win-win situation, for you and him.

I take my birds into the bathroom when I'm having a bath and don't ask me why they like this so much but they absolutely do especially Nikki. Then they sit with me while I watch TV. This is our family time. Zazu is on my chest but this is one of the few times I let her hang off my body and mostly because it's a space issue. Sally is on the arm of the chair, Gypsy will fly to the back of the chair and Nikki is on her basket beside me. I scratch all their heads except for Gypsy during this time. Each bird gets a few minutes. Gypsy gets hers before she goes to bed.

Tell me 3 of Kernal's favourite treats/things to do beside being glued to your body. LOL

Bev


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#211358 - 10/28/09 04:58 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Tell me 3 of Kernal's favourite treats/things to do beside being glued to your body. LOL
Oranges, corn, scratches

I try not to trick him and I understand the reasons. There are those times that I may have to go out quickly. Or that I have waited perhaps 2 hours for him to go good night. Those are the times I walk with him to get him unhooked. I have even tried to bribe him with his treats and he won't have any of it. I really don't wish to go back to allowing him out all night.

Any errands I run I try to do before they come out so that once they are out it is an all day affair. I'm lucky in that everything I need on a regular basis is just up the road and mostly a quick trip. Even the med labs open at 6 AM.

I realize that all the changes won't happen at once. I am not that patient or hopefull. I do like to know the big picture goal for an end result. It seems to make sence to incorporate correct action into the program so as to avoid some trip ups later on. An example is maybe I should have replace the large play perch with smaller ones near my area and sked him to stay on it instead of allowing him to sit on me the last few months.

So again I ask how do I get him off with out taking away choices or trickery. Just give me a lead as to a direction to go in. I don't like to pry him off I am afraid I will hurt him. He will get beaky like peck at me on occasion. He won't come for special treats and won't get off to get something. He will twist his feet up in what he can hold on to, he will lay down, he will scream.
I do take advantage when it occurs to put him to bed peacefully but those occasions are very rare. (these occasions have happened on the rare time our feeding schedule was off) Thank You Deb

#211361 - 10/28/09 06:02 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Hey EM I wanted to reply so as not to offend anyone or raise flags on here but I can only come up with one response to your opening comment about my birds being lucky.
I am the one that is truely blessed to have each one of these creatures accept me as a part of their lives. I believe that we are all stewards of treasures and I got some of the best!!
Thank you for noticing. Hopefully our light shines. Deb

#211362 - 10/28/09 06:13 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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I feel the same way about my birds, Deb!

Quote:
So again I ask how do I get him off with out taking away choices or trickery.


At the risk of over simplying this, if the problem is getting him off of you, wouldn't it then be resolved easiest if he wasn't on you to begin with? I realize that sometimes (like when you are transporting him )that's impossible, but the less he is on you, the less you will have to pry him off you.


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Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211367 - 10/28/09 07:27 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Deb, what would the below be considered? Think carefully. LOL

""""At the risk of over simplying this, if the problem is getting him off of you, wouldn't it then be resolved easiest if he wasn't on you to begin with?"""""

Bev

If Kernal wants to be on you, then limited time with you could be earned (that would be the reinforcement for requested behaviour) but not until you have a solid step up on request.


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#211369 - 10/28/09 09:33 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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I am watching this thread carefully. Feeling guilty for leaving Fancy in early Sept I overdid the 'attention' and she's now very clingy (smart bird). This thread is helping me as well.


Juliana
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#211380 - 10/29/09 01:08 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Fancy'sMum]  
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"""At the risk of over simplying this, if the problem is getting him off of you, wouldn't it then be resolved easiest if he wasn't on you to begin with?"""""

Easier said than done.I don't take an I'm the boss approach with any of them and as soon as I open his cage door he is either stepping up as requested or jumping past my hand right on me. Today I discouraged him being on me. When he came to visit I would give him enough time that he started to be able to be distracted. Then I loaded up a play area for he & gretta. They goofed off a bit weren't real into any toys. He spent maybe 4-10/15 minute sessions on me today. I was in and out a good bit today preparing plants for the season so all 3 birds were real noisey. But it's the most I've heard from Gretta she did all kinds of sounds today.
Is there a trick to taking the bird out that I'm unbeknownst to? (is that a scrabble word)
Please patiently give me a step by step because I'm having a brain melt here. I feel like I'm going in circles.

Fancy's Mum feel free to jump in. Welcome...
Thanks all Deb [[[heavy sigh]]]

#211385 - 10/29/09 03:26 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Don't we all wish they came w/step by step manuals - LOL!

When you open the cage door, Kernel does 1 of 2 things - steps up or bolts past your hand and onto you. You need to be prepared for the later and prevent that from happening. You can either block him with your other hand, or position yourself in a way that he can't jump past your hand. Once he's on your hand, station him. By that I mean don't follow through w/bringing him out until he steps up and remains there. Use your free hand to give him a head scratch, then rest your hand on his back as you bring him out. At the first sensation that he's "on the move" stop. Don't continue to move him out of the cage until he stations. Once he does, then immediately proceed bringing him out. Keep giving him the chance to do it right, until he does. Kernel is a very smart fellow. It won't take him long to figure it out. And be sure to praise him the entire way for stationing. This isn't about being the boss, because as Bev's article explains, "Being the Boss Backfires". What this is about is giving Kernel what he wants and at the same time giving you what you want. Kernel gets to come out of his cage, and you keep Kernel from jumping onto you. Win-win for both of you.

Sounds like everyone had a good day today!


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

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#211454 - 10/30/09 03:31 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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In the morning, my birds all step up to my hand to come out of their cages. In the evening when I get home from work, I just open the cage doors and they come out on their own. Now Zazu is perfectly capable of flying out of the sleep room but usually what she does is wait for me to carry her out and then she will fly back in. To me this is a behaviour that indicates she wants to be with me for the few seconds it takes me to carry her beck to the living room. Nikki did not step up when I got her. She was picked up in a towel. I don't think I really taught her the step up but I did make myself a thing of value to her in that she wanted to be with me so was willing to get on my hand. I never hold her toes when she steps up but will gently hold them when we are walking to her cage as she scares easily although this is getting better all the time. She can step right back down as soon as she steps up so she decides whether to stay on my hand or not. In the beginning, I would sometimes have to wait 5 minutes so eventually I would offer my hand, she would not step up, so I would leave for a minute or so. Because she really wanted to be with me, she overcame her hesitation and now is eager to step up. What is extremely important here is we moved at Nikki's pace and sometimes it can be frustrating for us humans but we have to allow free choice. It creates trust between you and your birds.

Does this help, Deb?

Bev


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#211582 - 11/02/09 08:19 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Bev- It all helps. I will just slow down for a few here. I was so busy listening & reading that I lost the real connection to my buds in the mist of trying to do right. I'll work with these guys and keep ya posted. Thanks... Deb

#211584 - 11/02/09 08:37 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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The most important thing of all Deb is that you are here trying to build a new relationship with your birds using ABA.

And the second most important thing of all to remember is that it takes time to learn and implement ABA and that it is a life long journey because behaviour changes all the time so we must also learn how to adapt to those changes.

Looking forward to hearing how things are going but we are here if you need us.

Bev

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#212932 - 11/30/09 04:50 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Hi There, We've been away traveling for a bit but are almost ready to head back to DE. While I have been vacationing the birds have been visiting others as well.
I found out that they ARE just like kids, they put on the good act. My family has had a blast messing with them.
Kernal has done his roll over act for everyone. He steps up most of the time to come out, goes in fairly easy with out a fuss. I have been using a high back chair that he can roost on instead of being on me. He is very interactive with pretty much everyone he comes in contact with. Will fly from room to room to check out who is doing what. Likes to get in everyones buisness.
Gretta is still taking it slow but every now and again surprises me like finding her way to where everyone is gathered in another room. Or trying to attack the newest addition (abandoned kitten).
It was nice when I came back and went to see them they jumpped up and down and screamed so loud. I'm glad they associate with me. They are so compatable with the rest of my family & their pets. Even hubbs is starting to shift. I dropped a hint for a custom stainless cage for here when we visit. Keep your fingers crossed for me.
Now if I can just keep the good habits in line when we get back home. Every-one here has accused me of spoiling the birds so we shall see.
Looking forward to getting back to routine.

#212946 - 11/30/09 05:14 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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That is an excellent update, Deb. If you use positive reinforcement in all areas, you can generalize a behaviour or behaviours and that is get the behaviour requested in any location. So teaching behaviours in different locations should be part of a training or teaching program.

Does this make sense, Deb? Not sure if I explained it well enough.

Bev


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#213146 - 12/05/09 09:39 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Yes Bev it makes perfect sense. Just like us the training never stops.
I have realy been enjoying watching Gretta and Kernal blosom in this enviroment. There are around 7-10 animals of assorted varieties around at all times so it can be quite tireing keeping everyone safe.
Gretta and Kernal cornered the kitten the other day when I took a plate to the kitchen. Gretta has become very assertive not agressive and has aproached hubbs a few times. He smiles and talks nice to her. I've stressed to not leave her unattended and if you go to the bathroom cover the computer. Everytime he leaves she jumps in his seat. She honks when he comes and goes and puts her crest up for him.Still not much to do with me. I guess I just am to laid back for these guys at my place. They are truely clowns here with all the interactions with people and stuff.
Sadly all good things must come to an end.
I went to bed at 5 Am (unfortunately) By 11 someone had unhooked the lock on Gretta's door. Rehooked it mind you and opened & unlocked the door to the room where they sleep at night. When I came out to see what the noise was I was informed that she had to go even if it was snowing out because she ate the wood work across the top and bottom of 2 windows. After things calmed down and I happened to mention all the details I think hubbs understands now it was his Mom. She has dementia and I told him yesterday be on guard that she is getting ready to have an episode. Alas he quieted down and cleaned up the mess of course with a promise that Gretta will leave after the weather clears and not come back. So we are off to DE again.
The weirdest thing is both of these 2's love my hubbs or at least like to go to him and be around him and he just ain't a bird person. But untill today he was like melted butter with them.

#213273 - 12/08/09 05:35 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deb, has hubby calmed down? I've given up hope of ever having anything without cockatoo beak marks in it. LOL When all is said and done, it's just stuff although I can see how wood work damage would really suck. There are times when I get really ticked when one of my birds (mostly Zazu) destroys something but I realize it's my fault for not putting it away. There have been times when I've left them out of their cages and miraculously came home to find everything untouched. I still can't figure that one out. LOL

Gretta and Kernal have come a long way!!

Bev

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#213284 - 12/08/09 08:16 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hey Bev,
Nah he won't get over it. He's one of those people that still has his squezze monkey with the pop out eyes in the original box. He isn't hateful though.
Gretta just isn't allowed out with out me being in the room with her. Considering this was one of the original rules (duhhh). He's having a rough time admitting the severity of his Mom's illness. Hence me staying at one of our retirement homes. Never 100% sure but after reviewing all events that day 4 out of 5 of us believe Gretta was set up to get me to leave.
Luckly we had a freind show up who needed a place to stay with her dog for a few nights. Like I said in older post we don't turn nobody away. So for today we are still in Maryland. With an extra body and yet another dog. hehehe Life is fun.
Yes Kernal and Gretta have come along way. They are florishing with all the interaction. Gotta run till later. Thanks for asking. Deb

#214626 - 01/04/10 08:23 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Hi there! Just an update. We are back in DE and I think I have brought a strange bird home. My Gretta is so happy to be here (I think). WE had company a few days after we got home but once they left. My Gretta girl has taken some real changes upon herself.
Kernal now steps up to go in and out and doesn't come rushing out as soon as you open the cage. He gives you time to put put your hand out for step up. We leave the bird room and Gretta follows. I feel like the pide piper. Same routine going to bed at night she gets right in her cage.
Here's the icing on the cake... she follows me through the house during the day, comes in the room I am in and chooses to sit next to me. Of course if I sneeze, move cough or breathe heavy it starts all over. Watching her bounce on the sofa & chairs in the livingroom after company left was like a five year old childs first Christmas morning with presents. I love it!!!!
Bev, I have found the toughest chalenge in making myself of valu to Gretta. Not food motivated, doesn't want to be touched, don't want to be in close personal space and of course the fear of hands and people make it hard to interact.
The route I have chosen seems to be working but with the lack of experience perhaps you can add direction to head off any unwanted outcome. I have been sitting on my hands or using them as little as possible with the exception of clapping and cheering her on and of course feeding. Praise and encouragement seem to be the only way to get to her for now.
While we were gone she did take it upon herself to guard the cage area and chase a kitten out of the room a few times, she also climbed up on the sofa next to the dog, when the dog remained in her path she pulled a hair on the dogs tail (what she has seen the other bird and animals do) and the dog moved out of her way. Gretta seems to be comming out of her shell a good bit. I'm not sure that I like the yells everytime I leave the room but hey I just call back. Thanks and Happy New Year to all. Deb
By the way after double locking cages and the birds still escaped the MIL was caught sneeking into release the birds, so hubbs kinda backed off being grumpy about the chewing incident.
I realize now that when they first came here perhaps I did let them rule the nest. Now they go to bed between 8:30 & 9 get their min 10 hours.Follow a few request/rules.

#214636 - 01/05/10 04:25 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deb, you are on the right path. The thing about people learning how to do a Functional Analysis and UNDERSTANDING why and what they are doing to facilitate behaviour modification/change is key. I can help people get across the river but if they want to be able to do it for themselves, they need to learn how to build a boat just as they need to learn how to do a Functional Analysis so that they can deal with any problem behaviours that might crop up. You can also use it to get more of the behaviours you want to see. You can reinforce calm behaviour with Gretta. What does she do when you clap and cheer? Gretta follows you through the house, chooses to sit next to you? What would she do if you put a favourite treat in your hand and did not move your hand. Have you tried that? You give her the choice of whether or not she wants the treat. Now if she does come to get it, you must now do anything. Do not move a muscle. She must be allowed to take the treat and move away. This is all about giving her choices. Make sense?

Sounds like things are moving in the right direction. Way to go, Deb!!! Give yourself a pat on the back and hubby too for calming down. Why does your MIL let them out of their cages?

Bev

Praise and encouragement can be powerful reinforcers, Deb. Don't you like to be told how wonderful you are? LOL I certainly do, but unfortunately, we humans don't do enough of it.


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#214814 - 01/09/10 04:22 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hey Bev-
Thanks for the input. Yeah Gretta is following me, I love it that she wants to be near. I'm glad our traveling didn't set her back. I have put treats down and providing Kernal dosen't get to it first Gretta will take it and run away with it. She will also take a treat from me after she has been out for an hour or so (takes a bit for her to feel secure) I must be sure that she is in a secure state when I cheer her on otherwise she trembles and runs away. If she is feeling safe she will raise her crest and jump, dance, yell & hop all around. I have found that she can easily get overwhelmed so it has to be small bits at a time. Like today I had company come in and she came out, stood in the kitchen looked at each person, whent to the living room & hung out about 45 minutes. Opps too much action for the girl so back to her room she went. Stayed out playing about 3 hours then went in her cage.
As for the MIL she doesn't like me and doesn't want me there (my house), she was ready for me to leave but hubbs & I were having a great time so that was the only wedge she could find to drive between us. I also caught her being not nice to Gremlin the dog. That's when she started on the birds and we soon left. Oh well her loss. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!
Thanks Bev for all you do. Deb

#214833 - 01/09/10 07:32 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deb, it really sounds like you are on the right track with Gretta. Just give it time and allow her to learn to trust you. As long as you allow her to make choices about what she wants to do, you can't lose.

You are right, Deb, her loss!!!

How do you feel about the way things are going with the birds?

Bev


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#214993 - 01/11/10 07:52 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hi Bev, I am delighted in the way things are going with K & G for the most part. Some days it's a little overwhelming. Kernal is showing as many new behaviors as Gretta. Their intelligence NEVER seems to stop amazing me! Company left today and before they were out of the driveway Gretta was out and about being happy and not as skiddish. Judging by her actions she seems very much more at ease with just me around, so to my eye that is proof in the pudding.
I have to get out and get a bigger cage for them. A friend of mine is holding it for me but I won't be able to get it from her until the weather is gonna be good for a few days, as it is a few hundred miles away. But with Kernals new activity level he is going to have to spend a little more time in a cage. Due to their taste in remodeling I have a few serious projects to do now. And with running saws & power tools he can't be at large (haha).
He did the foot chasing thing with my freind yesterday and he swooped and bit her (more like a peck) 2 or 3 times. I'm thinking that since she had white socks on and white seems to put them on alert when she started bobbing her foot in the rocking chair and it caught his eye he wanted the trespasser gone. I gave her red socks and once she changed all was well. I wear white but I don't bob up and down.
Kernal is a G2 and his face is getting really dark peach underneath and by the corners of his mouth. His taste for foods has changed a small bit, Gretta is steady chewing & digging under pillows so I'm guessing it's that time again. I loaded up on 70% off wooden Christmas crafts so they have been tearing them up. They are going to bed earlier but keeping up with them is a bit tough with my medical conditions. They really are like too year old children and being childless it takes me back to the baby sitting for friends days. I would drop from being tiered when they went home. Ahh same thing. I'm hopeing that a bigger cage will give me an hour or 2 nap time when needed.
Over all I love my new buds and believe that we are going to ALL be very close one day.
Do you know of anyone else who doesn't want company because they just want alone time with the flock or am I being goofey?
Deb

#215009 - 01/11/10 10:07 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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No in truth Deb, I prefer my bird's company over pretty much everyone unless there is chocolate involved. LOL How many people do you know that make you laugh (and pull your hair out) as often as your birds do.

I think you have changed more than Elliot and Kernal and that's what it is all about.

Good job, Deb!!!!

Bev


Last edited by ZazuSally; 01/11/10 10:08 PM. Reason: added something

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#215206 - 01/14/10 08:29 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Screams of JOY!!!!
Kernal steps up to get out of the cage. He will wait a short period for me to offer my hand before he comes out and has been doing this the whole year so far (2010).
Here is the kicker... GRETTA ATE OUT OF MY OPEN HAND AND CAME BACK 4 times ++.
Finaly it may not be the best but she likes peanut butter chips. So now that I know she truely loves a certin food we will hopefully make tracks. It's hard to split one but possible. Anyway I put stuff in my hand and opened it flat, stretched it over the arm of the sofa and put snacks closer to me so she had a choice either my hand or pass my hand. She first chose the latter. When she saw the chips in my hand she went for them very slowly. I didn't blink, breath or move. After she took a few pieces like the 4th time I moved my thumb and she stopped then continued so after almost an hour and 4 chips later she was standing in front of my hand eating with fingers in differnt positions. Man what joy in my heart!!!
Yes Bev I think I have changed as well. But that's what education, love and attitude does it allows us to grow and be better. Thank You to all who have helped on mytoos both past and present as reading the older posts are like an endless book. And to Bev and Janet. My heart felt thanks. I'll be here again and again. Deb
Gotta go change my britches I was so ecited I wee'd.....

#215211 - 01/14/10 10:25 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deborah, that is fantastic news!!! Might I suggest that you turn those peanut butter chips into tiny pieces and try and switch to a healthier treat ASAP. How about peanut butter in a little spoon or something that you can hold in your hand?

The people who truly want a better relationship with their birds Deb, are the ones willing to do the work and in every single case that there is a major change in behaviour, it is never the bird's behaviour but the human who has done the changing. When we ask, not demand, when we reward not expect, when we respect not take then and only then will we will get the behaviours we want and it is a win-win for all involved.

There is no such thing as a bad bird, only a human who does not know any better. ABA can give them the tools they need but those tools have to be earned. I think the main thing is a willingness to let go of all preconceived notions of what humans should expect/take from animals. Would a human being push their hand into the chest of a dinasaur to make them step up? I don't think so because they would be dinner. I don't know why we think it is OK to use any other method other than positive reinforcement to get the behaviours that we want from our birds. Behaviours that are freely given. Doesn't get much better than that and you are seeing that Deb, that's huge.

Keep up the good work, Deb but please try to change that reinforcer as soon as you can. Those peanut butter chips are nothing but sugar.

Bev


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#215215 - 01/15/10 12:42 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hey Bev,
I am planning on changing the chips. Thankfully they aren't something I keep on hand. They were in one of those 100 calorie snack bags. Other than ice cream it's the only thing I have seen her go after. The ice cream was a while back (she stole the container). Gretta doesn't go for fruit with the exception of fresh bananas. She won't touch a dried fruit or chip of any kind other than to toss it. She doesn't really care for veggies either. I'm trying to figure some things I can toss together to broaden her desires for variety. Girlfriend obviously has a sweet tooth. She does like some pastas but not the veg. type. I'm thinking corn bread with an assortment of stuff and maybe getting 1 more small bag with the peanut butter chips and melting all 6 of them and swirling it through that should be enough taste to get her interested. I'll try the peanutbutter and fresh peanuts with the recipe first. At least I have a place to start. She's been so withdrawn until recently.
Oh and just a quickie I know you're busy and juggle alot but I don't have an Elliot and there is another member that goes by Deborah that's why I use Deb. Just so we don't get to innertwined. Thanks for all of your encouragement no matter whoes' name it's under wink

#215219 - 01/15/10 01:57 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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I was just testing you Deb, of course, it's Mutt and Jeff. LOL

So you can use fresh banana. My birds love fresh cherries. I pit them first. Whatever the bird enjoys, you can use as currency or the reward for wanted behaviour. There are so many things you could try. Hemp seed, safflower seed, tiny pieces of almond, brazil nut, walnut, pine nut, pistachio, pecan, you just have to get a bunch of things and just try them. What is in her daily diet and what does she eat first?

Bev


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#215225 - 01/15/10 02:47 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Bev- I have tried all you listed but the pine nuts. I have been looking for them as you mentioned your bird loves them. I have also tried a huge variety of fresh produce even going as far as to buy stuff I've never tried and trying it like weird things from the Asian & Latin markets.
Their daily diet consist of pellets available all the time, then for breakfast it's a grain like oats or grits & fruit maybe papaya, apple, banana, orange something I know she will eat. Through out the day I try to make 2 or 3 veggies available like kale, carrots and corn. It changes every day (what ever I'm having)
I also offer a small bit of whatever protien I am eating like beans or sometimes egg white or fish.
Sometimes I hang a whole coconut for them to tear up. In the summer I had fresh tomatoes and she would go nuts on them daily but won't have anything to do with store bought ones. I have tried smearing assorted nut butters (home made) on toys and stuff to get them interested. And not to often I'll give them seeds. They were on a seed only diet when I got them and it took a bit to get them on pellets. So I try to give seeds and nuts that are not in a pet mix but for humans so they don't get a dish of sunflower seeds. I haven't given hazel nuts to them because of the recalls but all the others I have. She don't even like cashews.
She is such a picky eater somedays she wants a whole banana other days not at all. I have asked a few times about a U2's appitite because when ya look at her size then Kernal he's a G2 he eats like a pig probaly 3x's more than she does but he is more active than she is. He turns down nothing she likes almost nothing. I was giving warms breakfast but the posts that I have read advised cutting the warm foods back when they are showing nesting behaviour so that is on hold for now.
When they come out in the morning at like 9 often she won't eat for an hour or 2 so by then Kernal has chomped through everything (not her stuff just his, mine, the dogs) and she just takes what she wants out of her dish a bite here and there. Never enthustastic like Kernal or like when she took the snack today.
I've also tried cereals both natural and sweetened (fruit loops) no, trail mix nah, tried millet, breads, and the time I tried beets Kernal looked like a vampire bird LOL. And also I have tried assorted baby foods.
I've got to admit my eating habits have changed for the better with them but the stores are running out of stuff to try. But what kind of chef would I be if I didn't continue educating myself in the market of untried foods.
I have come to the conclusion that Gretta is a hard nut to crack but she'll blossom. Deb

#215226 - 01/15/10 03:09 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Can you do me a favour, Deb and keep a log for 3 days of what she does and what she eats. What time does she get up? What does she do throughout the day? Does she play with toys. What is in her cage? Does she go into her cage on her own? Do you play games? Do you sing to her or dance with her? I need you to build me a picture so I can "see" through your words what her world is on a daily basis. Can you do that for me? If you have pictures of her cage to post, that would be good too or at least a link.

All living entities have things they value. Sometimes it's easy to figure out, sometimes not. We just have to become good detectives, Deb. What is that you give her for breakfast again? And you said she really likes it?

Bev

Small bits of sunflower seed are not a bad thing.


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#215237 - 01/15/10 06:35 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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She will be getting a new cage McCaw size the 2 week of Feb. For now she only has her sleeping cage here that's why they are out all the time and they have their own room. I broke my camera but will try to get some pics. Do you want me to send the log to you in an e-mail so as not to just hog space here, or maybe post it and it can help someone else??
She loves warm breakfast of oatmeal or warm grits and warm juice for breakfast.
She used to sit on a chair and go to her cage right after she ate untill about 2 weks ago she started jumping in the sunshine and over the patterns on the rug in the living room. It has taken her since May to get the courage to come in the room with me. That's why I'm so happy. Things of valu I would say are her cage, Kernal, and it's a tie for 3rd this week between me & her room. So I'm definitly moving on up. She is afraid of toys so I leave them around her room and then she finaly gets to it. I'll explain all that through the log. THANKS BEV!!!

#215246 - 01/15/10 03:05 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deb, do you see what you are doing here? Instead of expecting Gretta to understand our world, you are figuring out her world and what she needs. You are going to her instead of expecting her to come to you and I mean that behaviour wise, know what I mean? That is huge, Deb, huge! When you begin to figure out what it is she values, you can use that to your advantage. For example, you could sit with that bowl of oatmeal in your hand, let her come to you to eat and just sit quietly while she eats. Then you are pairing yourself with something she values, the oatmeal. If you always pair yourself with things she values, eventually you become valuable to her as the bringer of good things. Get it?

Yes, I think it helps to share here, Deb, that way others can learn.

Bev


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#215248 - 01/15/10 03:27 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
I prefer my bird's company over pretty much everyone unless there is chocolate involved. Bev


I agree completely!

#215249 - 01/15/10 03:46 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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"you are figuring out her world and what she needs"
I understand what you are saying and am glad I have it straight in my head. The toughest part is giving her support from a distance. As a human I have learned to cuddle, and other ways of making contact to support someone. With her being so abused and scared she wouldn't even stay in the same room when I first got her. She will finaly stay put when I go past her. If anyone else walks buy she takes off. (not graceful at all) She has wiped out at LEAST 1-2 meals a week by being startled by an outside source. (shadow, or neighbor dog barking). I wouldn't mind if it was a movie but my heart breaks that any creature would fear my presence so bad they would endanger themselves to get away. I had started by giving them their room mainly for saftey sake (and to protect the rest of the house LOL) and I would start down the hall talking to her for a few weeks, graduating to standing in the doorway for periods then sleeping on a bed next to the cage. That's when she was out and got on me to look and scared both of us. With my health I don't think it good to be in such a small space with them breathing deeply asleep so that was short lived but served it's purpose. I will still take a nap in there if I have to but put them in their cages for safety. I hate to say it this way and please hope no one reading takes offence but she is more difficult than children I've delt with who have autism. Not that I mind. The one blessing of making progress with her is every small tiny step is a HUGE landmark in my pea brain. My reward is her peace if that makes sence. I'll post the log after they go to bed tonight. Thanks and hope you're having a great day. It's going to 50 here at the beach today & LOTS OF SUNSHINE !! Deb

#215297 - 01/16/10 04:21 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Okay Miss Bev, You asked for it. Hope I'm understandable (is that a word)
8:30- Kernal starts crying and yelling
8:45- open cages, talk good morning and how are you, give kernal kisses for stepping up.
8:55 Gretta comes out of her cage and goes through k's cage checking everything out and stands around on top of the cages
9:10 Gret starts contact calling and I call back
9:30 She waddles down the hall see's me in the kitchen and runs back to her room..
10- I'm in the living room K is eatting at the snack bar and Gret gets on the chair that is fartherest away
10:30 I move a chair closer to the snack bar and show G where her breakfast is
10:35 She's on the close by chair, jumps on snack bar walks around to my side about 2 feet from me she stops bows and says Heddo.
I stay in my chair but do the same back and she hops on top the counter and goes to eat breakfast
Black berries Whole wheat pasta crust from grain bread w/seeds on it (won't do blackberries)
11:00 the 2 of them are on the back of the recliner preening each other. spend the next hour plus jumping from arm to arm on the chair and walking around checking stuff out. On the counters, table & floor.
12:30 I sit at pc to work and K flys to me then G comes over to the arm of my chair. I get up she moves a little I am speaking in a happy tone to her. "pretty Gretta, you are so pretty, look how brave you are my goodness I just love you up" you get it. I put a piece on pasta between us and she gets it. now I get a small piece of PB chip boom here she is I offer my hand and she takes it, comes back and looks over the side of the chair and sofa looking for more (never happened before). Boy why can't it be healthy snacks. She is hopping around and looking for more she has a total of 2 chips. I put pnt btr on a spoon K gobbles it G takes a taste and leaves. Refil the spoon after K gets done. Gretta doesn't like it and smears it on the white sofa.

For the rest of the afternoon until 4:50 they nap on and off and Gretta is jumping on the sofa running & hopping on the back , looking to see what I have watching , out the window in 5-10 minute spurts and sitting on the back of the recliner with Kernal, and jumping over the sunshine on the rug. At one point she went down the hall got her wooden bar bell and chewed it. She also pulled the curtains up from behind the sofa and tried to nestle under my coat.A "Gretta" no or hey you and she stopped. Tonight is a rarety I am going to a neighbors for dinner so they are back in their cages at ten of 5. Through out the day I have talked to them played with kernal and tried to coax Gretta with nice words "aww come here babes, it's okay, I love you, don't be scared you're safe I won't hurt you no I love my birdies yes I do" There are baskets and wood toys for them to play with and toilet paper rolls with surprises inside. some raffa stuffed in things. When she gets on the counter around 4 I give them carrots in chunks & shredded and apple pieces. Today she hasn't gone to her room at all. Oh and one thing I noticed 2 weeks ago and it happens regular like clock work.. ready it's weird...when Gretta first comes out and gets on the chair even if I greet her from afar she will pooh the first time I go near her. She does this on few other occasions that are so predictable. It's like I scare the crap out of her. Doesn't matter how long ago she has eatten or poohed.
Opened the cages at a little before 7 tonight. Kernal did a repeat of this morning and Gretta has pretty much stayed on the cages with an occasional honk.
scream fest 7:20 till almost 8 (BB starts this just about every night and a few afternoons a week.) During this anything goes we honk, flap scream sing clap get down right foolish. even the dog gets wound up running after her toys BB screams "help" and no matter what room Gretta is in she will yell, or honk, Kernal will hang from the ceiling fixtures and if music is good it gets real loud. But tonight just hollering and laughing.
at about 8:05 it's been quiet and they are starting to fluff (that night thing they do) So Kernal goes in his cage Gretta goes in hers they get some dry cereal added like cherrios light stays on a few and by 8:30 every body is quiet and settled lights are out. They also have pellets and water with a hanging toy's and a basket to play with.
Tell me this is what you wanted....Deb

Last edited by FunnyFarm; 01/16/10 04:26 AM.
#215306 - 01/16/10 06:24 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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OK, Deb, after all that I want you to tell me what you want from them? Sounds like a pretty good life to me. How long have you had them now?

Gretta eats the Cheerios?

And she eats the whole grain bread?

Bev


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#215325 - 01/16/10 05:40 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hi Bev-
First do you still want the other 2 days you suggested a 3 day journal. Honestly aside from a bit of variety in the menu and maybe bath times it's pretty much the same.

I have had them since about may they are supposedly 25 years old. Yes Gretta will eat some cherios but she likes the whole grain bread will eat that most of the time when offered. and loves uncooked wheat pasta. None of these are good enough to get half the reaction of a peanut butter chip. I know everything in moderation I was thinking about trying to make a chip maybe with honey or stevia leaves but need to research it first. I ain't gonna keep giving her pure sugar it's just not healthy.
Here is the hardest answer to say.
I don't want anything from them other than for them to be happy and secure with me. I am sure Gretta has grown in trusting me but she isn't ready to let down her gaurd yet (probaly never will totaly trust me I have hands and hands hurt her). I'm hoping that with in say the next decade (realisticly) she will sit on my arm or step up or allow me to do her nails just some sort of basic contact/touching. Or run to me not away. Other than that I couldn't ask anymore. I doubt that they'll every use a toilet to potty or do house work so what more can you ask? They love, entertain,teach & give me purpose when the days are dark and make me greatful.
Thanks Bev, Deb

#215371 - 01/17/10 02:56 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Bev did you see a recall on pine nuts? There was one brand recalled here what area are you in?

At 7:30 birds are still sleeping by 8:45 Kernal cries and Gretta honked so I went in and opened them up with good mornings. I went to the bathroom and when I came back they were both on a chair in the kitchen preening each other. They had banana, an offering of blackberry and seeds, Gretta ate 2 blackberries .Today was a work day for me scrubbing carpet so Kernal supervised and Gretta danced. The music was on all day thanks to Gretta dancing to Queen and 70's songs so all we did was play and eat today. Oh and along with "help" starting the noise fest today BB was also yelling "hey Kernal help helllo" I had to go out and sit in the yard a few minutes it was so loud and funny. I added a perch in a doorway between the kitch and living room. None of them have gotten on it yet but they noticed it. Gretta came looking for her treat today and got corn tortila instead of pntbtr chip. They had red beans, green & red sweet peppers and tomatoe sauce for lunch Orange juice and almond biscuts for dinner. It's 7:45 now and I'm gonna put them in their room with a snack while I clean the kitchen and watch FB game. By 8:30/8:45 the will be in cage for the night. They have both been trying to nap sitting here with me for the last hour. Deb

#215387 - 01/17/10 06:47 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deb, the recall does not affect Canada.

Now considering that you have only had K & G since May, I think you are doing wonderful. I think you just need to continue to offer Gretta her very favourite foods (from your hand, leave it flat and not moving)so that she learns hands can be good things. Never push the envelope. The bird must always be allowed free choice.

As long as you always use positive reinforcement, Deb, your relationship with all your birds will only improve.

Bev


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#215685 - 01/22/10 04:18 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Okay I think your work here is done until the next dumb moment I have. I am enjoying the flock so much! Gretta has started to steal from me now as I am working in the living room she has started to steal my pads of paper, pens, Kernal stole the remote but it weighed him down when he tried to fly. LMAO. He has also started flying and hoovering over things to check them out. I'll be here lurking. Thanks again. Deb

#216273 - 02/02/10 08:37 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Bev- quick update. Gretta has taken to the furniture being re- arranged quite nicely. The key I have found is as you mentioned getting to know her. I have changed what I can so far. The 2 of them use the back of my sofa as a runway to me. Gretta hardly hesitates to accept food from me and she comes over and doesn't always retreat. I don't care if it is spring behaviour. They tire me out but are acting like the too so many people talk about. THEY ARE ROTTEN! In a good way. Maybe Gretta will be normal yet who knows. They are walking all around the floors. Gosh it's the kind of birds I've only dreamed of. Some may be nightmareish but dream none the less.Deb

#216275 - 02/02/10 09:20 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Anybody can have this kind of relationship with their birds Deb if they take the time to learn about ABA. People will get away with pushing their birds for so long and then bam, they get bitten. If you allow your bird a choice, right out of the gate, about most things in their lives, you set the bird and yourself up to succeed. Patience is a big thing. I can shove my hand into my bird's belly to get her to step up but it's a whole lot better for both of us if she wants to step up because eventually I will get nailed and that is exactly what used to happen with Sally. And I'd like to be able to tell you that I took to ABA like a duck to water but unfortunately I like most people had to be dragged and kicking into it. Once I got it, it was almost magical, but really it just makes sense that it works, nothing magical about it. I was the one who changed not my birds. They were always good birds. I just reinforced unwanted behaviour from them - all over the place. LOL Fortunately, they are very forgiving and as soon as I allowed them choices and gave them rewards, I was getting wanted behaviour all over the place. LOL

Bev


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#229172 - 01/13/11 03:53 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hi There! I have been gone what feels like forever. I am so happy to be here again!! A quickie update, Kernal steps up now with no problem hardly ever resist and when he does he comes around fairly quickly. He & Gretta both respond to being called by name. He will fly to me and she will come running stop in front of me and bow. Gretta will accept food and walk around me, eat out of my hand and come look very closely in my face but doesn't want to be approached by hands so I respect that and when hands need to go near her I look away she calms then. The last several months have been a real learning time. Gretta is getting braver and will come out of her room and visit me with out Kernal. He loves to spin and faint. They are on a schedule now with nap times included and bed early. Life is so much easier. Oh and Gretta has a double wide Macaw cage with all kinds of chewy wood, boxes & stuff. She loves it! Thanks you guys for encouraging patients. This characters are such a pleasure to live with I just can't express it enough (my gratitude for this site and your help). Deb

#229174 - 01/13/11 04:25 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Thanks for the update, and for working to make their lives better!!!

#229176 - 01/13/11 08:07 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Beeps]  
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Fantastic news! Thanks for thinking of us and checking in. Rock on!

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