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#211301 - 10/27/09 03:58 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Okay so I should just keep some of his favorite treat within reach of ME all of the time so that when he does it instant reward and get him to repeat as many times as I can (without annoying him) then once he gets good at it, try it somewhere he isn't good at it like in his room. Build it by that?
As for the shoulder he holds on I have actually had to take my shirt off at times because he will roll up in it to hold on.
Ya know it's funny how they choose when to understand human and when not to. I can call any of them by name and only they will respond or come and if someone is say chewing on the curtains and I say hey knock it off they stop and the others just keep on what they are doing. They know.
I realize this isn't an exact science but I am already seeing some of the errors of my ways. Like I have spoiled them already in some ways I need to correct. Like not giving them boundries (mostly Kernal).

#211302 - 10/27/09 04:21 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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ABA is absolutely an exact science, Deb. It is the science of behaviour. And you were spot on in what you should do as in instant reward. Build it by that? Excellent, excellent. Try that and see what happens but those treats need to be very special and something that he is not getting all the time.

Things that are cute in the beginning can become annoying later on so best to set them up to succeed as soon as they come into our homes.

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#211306 - 10/27/09 06:00 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Okay I'll keep ya posted (haha) Thank you so much.

#211339 - 10/28/09 12:01 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Hey Bev-EM here's a wrinkle I didn't see comming. Kernal refused to step up today untill late after noon so he stayed in his room. Gretta on the other hand decided to come out. That's great she's been doing this for about a week now but today she didn't just walk into the living room and leave. She came she hung out, she left, she returned, she bounced on every piece of furniture. Has just hung out getting closer looks at stuff. I am so estatic.
Question- aside from no with cords and obvious behaviour guidence what type of boundries should I set with her? Not that, that is anytime soon but she goes in leaps with progress. And she is such a shutter bug (poor thing gets shakey at everything)I can't see ever pushing her away but I in no way want to cunfuse her. Am I making sence here? If it gets to the point she will cuddle like Kernal does how long is good..if I let him go till his tank is full he would never get off of me. I think EM referred to it as Royal clingyness. Are U2's more so than goffins? I know it's an individual thing and not trying to stereotype but there must be odds somewhere. In bringing a lovebug back around would there be a tendency to over compensate?
I didn't know the original owners but I'm getting more convinced that these guys were VERY well loved at one time. Gosh gretta was on the table and I didn't see her when I looked up I said where are you. She stuck her head up with a light "hello". There were 2 other animals and a person here and she was the only one responded. (Kernal was still in his room.) Thanks Deb

#211344 - 10/28/09 01:31 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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There are different types of attention Deb and the one that you want to concentrate on, and provide the most of is ambient attention. Meaning that your birds are a part of your everyday life - WITH you, but not ON you. I kept track yesterday for kicks. I had a bird on me the entire day for a total of 10 minutes. Now mind you, I don't ignore them. I stop and exchange pleasantries with them while I go about my day, inquire about their day, offer a head scratch or a treat, do a little dance with them, etc.

I have 4 species of 'Toos, Moluccans, Goffin's an Umbrella and an LSC. The U2 is by far the cuddle bug of the 6 of them. If I would let him, he would sit with me all day. But instead, he gets lots of ambient attention just as the others do, and I set aside about 45 minutes in the evening (just before I put him in his sleep cage) to sit with him on the bed. I also sit w/him for about 5 minutes, first thing in the morning when I get him out of his sleep cage, otherwise he will bite me when I walk him out to the familyroom.

There are lots of ways to make them a part of your day without having them ON you getting your complete, undivided attention. That is what you need to work on.

And I believe that his "Royal Clinginess" was Bev's description - LOL!


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211347 - 10/28/09 02:03 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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I believe that they get plenty of ambient attention. For 99% of the time they are only in their sleep cages maybe 8 hours tops with the doors secured. Once I am up I open and unlock then when they stir. They join me untill bed time. (boy do I love being retired)I bought one of those giant play perch/gym they just didn't seem interested then, maybe now is a good time to reintroduce it. Right now Kernal is trying to type and when I push his head away he rolls onto the key board. I have to leave it cracks me up. And Gretta has been looming over my shoulder I'll bet she has memorized the key board.
Kernal lasted an hour and a half sitting on me before he left today. So maybe that gives me an idea of what his minimum needs are going to be. So I should track it just to get an idea and perhaps shape that so it suits our life style.

Sorry about the mis-quote. It is a good one.

#211349 - 10/28/09 03:05 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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You have to get Kernel's rolling on video - I wanna see! Obviously the behavior has served him well in the past, and still is - LOL!

Deb, our birds need 10-12 hours of sleep each night. If they are in their sleep cages for 8 hours *maybe* they are falling well short of that. Perhaps you can put them to bed 1 hr earlier and get them up 1 hr later so you don't disrupt the routine too awful much?

How many times today did Kernel sit with you? And for how long each time? I know you mentioned a 1 1/2 hour session. Was that the only time?


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211351 - 10/28/09 04:52 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Yep I would love to get it on video. Maybe when my nephew comes or when they go to my mom's next month for vacation. I'm not camera savey anylonger frown.
Ya know I think you are correct. I have recently changed the schedule and they are getting less sleep.
Tonight they were in by 9:30. kernal didn't want to go he wanted to sleep on the back of the chair. Gretta went nice & BB he just does his thing.
So Tommorow let them be until they start calling? We really didn't have a time schedule routine. I just put them in when they start acting like they are ready (Gretta goes to the cage and Kernal cries like a baby) or I'm going to bed as early as 9-10 and as late as 12-1.
Kernal sat (on) with me only the one time today. He was staying in his room most of the time today he wouldn't step up or fly to me I asked him about every 30 minutes. I went to the other room, he could have come (as he has in the past) but he stayed and I didn't pick him up or give him a treat. If I didn't know better I would think he was challenging a battle of wills. Or sulking for some reason.
After he came out he sat on me about 1& 1/2 hours then moved to the stool and other places. Gretta on the other hand stayed within arms distance all day with bouts of playing on the furniture and jumping over the stripes on the rug. I've not seen her play like this before. She also ate well today. Somedays she doesn't seem to have much of an appitite. Since she's healthy I contribute it to lack of activety being so scared. Kernal seems to eat so much compared to Gretta she is so picky.

#211354 - 10/28/09 05:49 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deb, I want to start off by saying that from reading your posts, there is no doubt in my mind that Kernel and Gretta and two lucky birds!!!

The most common types of behavior problems that people need help with are birds whose attention tank is too empty, or birds whose attention tank knows no boundaries. Like Bev mentioned previously, there is a gentle balance in having a bird whose attention tank is filled, vs. one whose attention tank is NEVER filled (Royal Clinginess).

Deb, honestly Kernel sitting with you non-stop for 1 1/2 hours isn't good. Why you ask? Because when he's sitting with you he's missing out on the opportunity to be a bird. Ambient attention - I cannot stress that enough. I remember Charlie saying that his Baby, who is very bonded to him, is only on his physical being for a few minutes a day - and that is mostly for transport. There are many ways we can engage and interact with our birds, and make them feel loved and secure, without them having to be on us and having our undivided attention.

Believe me, I understand how happy and flattered you are that they are seeking interaction with you. As you should be. So captialize on that and use your influence, and love to guide them into being birds. They won't love you less for it - promise.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211356 - 10/28/09 06:50 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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BUT I'M such a good foot warmer.
I know you guys are correct that's why I'm here. Now that I need to keep Kernal off even more (I already felt like I was rejecting him) I spent a good bit of today making some toys and foreging things for them and tommorow I'll encourage perch play. But when he gets on me and won't let go how should I do this? Just take my shirt off with him attached or what? I mean he realy digs in and hunkers down. Thankfuly I have short hair when he gets on my friend it's terrible getting him off. I know he has to trust me and I shouldn't trick him nor should I have to but I do. On the occassion I've had to quickly put him away I'll walk to an area he is uncomfortable with and most times he'll fly off but not always.

#211357 - 10/28/09 02:56 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Deb, you don't need to get all the behaviours you want at once. Baby steps (approximations) are a good thing because you can then move towards the final goal (shaping and then chaining). We actually do this all the time and just don't realize what we are doing. I mean in every day life.

Every time you trick Kernal, you are moving backwards. And that's why he won't do things for you because you've tricked him. You have to be honest in your dealings with him. He has to learn to trust that when you "say" you are going to do something, you do it.

For example, say your next door neighbour asks you to come over at 5 pm to give you some money and you go over there and they tell you they were joking. Then they did it again and you go again and they do the same thing so chances are you would stop going over there but if you went over there and they gave you $100, what would happen every time they asked you to come over? See what I'm saying? When you trick Kernal, it is the same thing. When you ask him to do something and he gets something he values out of it, then it's a win-win situation, for you and him.

I take my birds into the bathroom when I'm having a bath and don't ask me why they like this so much but they absolutely do especially Nikki. Then they sit with me while I watch TV. This is our family time. Zazu is on my chest but this is one of the few times I let her hang off my body and mostly because it's a space issue. Sally is on the arm of the chair, Gypsy will fly to the back of the chair and Nikki is on her basket beside me. I scratch all their heads except for Gypsy during this time. Each bird gets a few minutes. Gypsy gets hers before she goes to bed.

Tell me 3 of Kernal's favourite treats/things to do beside being glued to your body. LOL

Bev


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#211358 - 10/28/09 04:58 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Tell me 3 of Kernal's favourite treats/things to do beside being glued to your body. LOL
Oranges, corn, scratches

I try not to trick him and I understand the reasons. There are those times that I may have to go out quickly. Or that I have waited perhaps 2 hours for him to go good night. Those are the times I walk with him to get him unhooked. I have even tried to bribe him with his treats and he won't have any of it. I really don't wish to go back to allowing him out all night.

Any errands I run I try to do before they come out so that once they are out it is an all day affair. I'm lucky in that everything I need on a regular basis is just up the road and mostly a quick trip. Even the med labs open at 6 AM.

I realize that all the changes won't happen at once. I am not that patient or hopefull. I do like to know the big picture goal for an end result. It seems to make sence to incorporate correct action into the program so as to avoid some trip ups later on. An example is maybe I should have replace the large play perch with smaller ones near my area and sked him to stay on it instead of allowing him to sit on me the last few months.

So again I ask how do I get him off with out taking away choices or trickery. Just give me a lead as to a direction to go in. I don't like to pry him off I am afraid I will hurt him. He will get beaky like peck at me on occasion. He won't come for special treats and won't get off to get something. He will twist his feet up in what he can hold on to, he will lay down, he will scream.
I do take advantage when it occurs to put him to bed peacefully but those occasions are very rare. (these occasions have happened on the rare time our feeding schedule was off) Thank You Deb

#211361 - 10/28/09 06:02 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Hey EM I wanted to reply so as not to offend anyone or raise flags on here but I can only come up with one response to your opening comment about my birds being lucky.
I am the one that is truely blessed to have each one of these creatures accept me as a part of their lives. I believe that we are all stewards of treasures and I got some of the best!!
Thank you for noticing. Hopefully our light shines. Deb

#211362 - 10/28/09 06:13 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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I feel the same way about my birds, Deb!

Quote:
So again I ask how do I get him off with out taking away choices or trickery.


At the risk of over simplying this, if the problem is getting him off of you, wouldn't it then be resolved easiest if he wasn't on you to begin with? I realize that sometimes (like when you are transporting him )that's impossible, but the less he is on you, the less you will have to pry him off you.


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211367 - 10/28/09 07:27 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Deb, what would the below be considered? Think carefully. LOL

""""At the risk of over simplying this, if the problem is getting him off of you, wouldn't it then be resolved easiest if he wasn't on you to begin with?"""""

Bev

If Kernal wants to be on you, then limited time with you could be earned (that would be the reinforcement for requested behaviour) but not until you have a solid step up on request.


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#211369 - 10/28/09 09:33 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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I am watching this thread carefully. Feeling guilty for leaving Fancy in early Sept I overdid the 'attention' and she's now very clingy (smart bird). This thread is helping me as well.


Juliana
Owned by Fancy the U2

Until you have loved an animal, your soul will stay unawakened
#211380 - 10/29/09 01:08 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: Fancy'sMum]  
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"""At the risk of over simplying this, if the problem is getting him off of you, wouldn't it then be resolved easiest if he wasn't on you to begin with?"""""

Easier said than done.I don't take an I'm the boss approach with any of them and as soon as I open his cage door he is either stepping up as requested or jumping past my hand right on me. Today I discouraged him being on me. When he came to visit I would give him enough time that he started to be able to be distracted. Then I loaded up a play area for he & gretta. They goofed off a bit weren't real into any toys. He spent maybe 4-10/15 minute sessions on me today. I was in and out a good bit today preparing plants for the season so all 3 birds were real noisey. But it's the most I've heard from Gretta she did all kinds of sounds today.
Is there a trick to taking the bird out that I'm unbeknownst to? (is that a scrabble word)
Please patiently give me a step by step because I'm having a brain melt here. I feel like I'm going in circles.

Fancy's Mum feel free to jump in. Welcome...
Thanks all Deb [[[heavy sigh]]]

#211385 - 10/29/09 03:26 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Don't we all wish they came w/step by step manuals - LOL!

When you open the cage door, Kernel does 1 of 2 things - steps up or bolts past your hand and onto you. You need to be prepared for the later and prevent that from happening. You can either block him with your other hand, or position yourself in a way that he can't jump past your hand. Once he's on your hand, station him. By that I mean don't follow through w/bringing him out until he steps up and remains there. Use your free hand to give him a head scratch, then rest your hand on his back as you bring him out. At the first sensation that he's "on the move" stop. Don't continue to move him out of the cage until he stations. Once he does, then immediately proceed bringing him out. Keep giving him the chance to do it right, until he does. Kernel is a very smart fellow. It won't take him long to figure it out. And be sure to praise him the entire way for stationing. This isn't about being the boss, because as Bev's article explains, "Being the Boss Backfires". What this is about is giving Kernel what he wants and at the same time giving you what you want. Kernel gets to come out of his cage, and you keep Kernel from jumping onto you. Win-win for both of you.

Sounds like everyone had a good day today!


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211454 - 10/30/09 03:31 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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In the morning, my birds all step up to my hand to come out of their cages. In the evening when I get home from work, I just open the cage doors and they come out on their own. Now Zazu is perfectly capable of flying out of the sleep room but usually what she does is wait for me to carry her out and then she will fly back in. To me this is a behaviour that indicates she wants to be with me for the few seconds it takes me to carry her beck to the living room. Nikki did not step up when I got her. She was picked up in a towel. I don't think I really taught her the step up but I did make myself a thing of value to her in that she wanted to be with me so was willing to get on my hand. I never hold her toes when she steps up but will gently hold them when we are walking to her cage as she scares easily although this is getting better all the time. She can step right back down as soon as she steps up so she decides whether to stay on my hand or not. In the beginning, I would sometimes have to wait 5 minutes so eventually I would offer my hand, she would not step up, so I would leave for a minute or so. Because she really wanted to be with me, she overcame her hesitation and now is eager to step up. What is extremely important here is we moved at Nikki's pace and sometimes it can be frustrating for us humans but we have to allow free choice. It creates trust between you and your birds.

Does this help, Deb?

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#211582 - 11/02/09 08:19 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Bev- It all helps. I will just slow down for a few here. I was so busy listening & reading that I lost the real connection to my buds in the mist of trying to do right. I'll work with these guys and keep ya posted. Thanks... Deb

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