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#210564 - 10/14/09 04:19 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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My Grey loves to sit on my shoulder and get her little head scratched while snuggling up to my face. She often tells me (body language) that she wants to as I pass by her cage. However, I reserve this for only limited times (mostly before bed) because I want her not to be too attached and have some independence. She is really good about it and just starts playing with her toys or something.


Whoever coined the term "bird brain" was probably projecting.
#210565 - 10/14/09 04:21 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Make small changes, Deb so as not to cause any unwanted behaviours. Start small and increase slowly, OK. This will be better for Kernal and in the end, you too because eventually his Royal Clinginess will get on your nerves. LOL

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#210580 - 10/14/09 06:58 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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You're very welcome Deb. I've been following your posts and some of the things you said could have been written by me 2 years ago.

I still let Alex to sit with me during the day, but I limit the time to 10-15 minutes, max. Then I take him to a gym or cage play top, give him a head scratch and hand him something to do. In the beginning he would head straight back to sit w/me again and sometimes he still does. If he persists, I put him in his cage with something fun to do and sing a little song and dance with him, which makes him happy. Before I put him in his sleep cage each night, we have our special time. For about 45 mins to an hour he sits on the bed with me. I pet him (appropriately), preen him and he lays his head on my chest, talks softly and makes kissy noises. With his attention tank full, he goes into his sleep cage w/out hesitation and puts a foot up against the front for one final foot massage before he goes to roost.

Like Bev said, make small changes so that you don't create any unwanted behaviors in the transition.

Your birds are lucky to have you.



Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#210700 - 10/16/09 01:22 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Boy this is tough. I spent most of the day on the computer with Greta & Kernal on the cage as usual. When K would come land on me I would chat with him, scratch what ever and take him back to cage after 15-20 minutes. Each time I gave him something either food or toy. He is now stuck to me rubbing his head up and down like a dog wanting scratches. Okay I scratch his head, and let him stay but then he goes to my shoulder and taps my head with his beak comes down to my chest grabs his head with one foot, my shirt with the other and rolls over in my shirt.he has done this several times. Come on too people is there a vacine for cuteness?

Thanks EM I can use all the guidance I can get.

Hi J
My amazon is good at not being clingy & very independent. He even has a great personality. He likes to tease and play. He will growl or bark like the dog when I go by if I have red or pink on. Sometimes he'll peck me I gently tug his tail and he goes awwwwwwww BB. When he wants me he calls me by nsme and that's cool. But these guys (toos) guess I just gotta get to know them. and we'll have fun fun fun....Deb

Last edited by Charlie; 10/16/09 02:01 AM. Reason: combine posts
#210940 - 10/20/09 03:59 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Too soon for permanent change? Maybe but small steps. I have been putting treats in all the cages so nobody picks good cage bad cage. Also I have been taking advatage when Kernal comes to me for a night time snack I hand it to him and let him sit with me to eat it then he steps up and I hold his toe with a finger while placing him in his cage and leave Gretta for last. This has been pretty neat. Since the first night K goes right in his cage he is also stepping up to come off the cage in the AM (only). This to me is BIG but even bigger is the suprise... Gretta becomes a diffrent bird with K out of the room. She hops, honks and spreads her wings.She use to just tremble and cling to the cage side to see where he was. But the last 2 days the more you cheer the more she does. She is pretty quiet for a bird so when she honks or mumbles it makes me smile. Anyway the other day she walked into the living room and I posted that, but today after they ate I was snuggling on the sofa trying to motivate. When Lo and behod here comes Gretta walking right over about 2 feet in front of me bends forward does a tiny "heddo" and starts hopping around. Back and forth in front of me for at least 5 minutes...not kidding all the way through to the next commercial break. And she isn't running compltely away now when I approach. She left the room when the dog came to see what was going on but came back down off the cage and looked after a few minutes to see where the dog was.
AHHHHHH sun is shinning Gretta is hopping it's gonna be a golden graham day!!

#210949 - 10/20/09 06:28 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Good, good update!!! I'm glad that both birds are doing so well - you are making good progress with both of them.

One word of caution though - no toe pinning. That takes away choices, damages trust and often leads to a bite. (I KNOW from experience).

Keep up the good work!

Last edited by EchosMom; 10/20/09 06:28 PM.

Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211097 - 10/23/09 11:34 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Okay so Kernal don't like going out of the house, I am sooo glad. He was in his flight suit & we went out on the screened porch (we are used to being there) as we approached the door Kernals posture got very straight. When we went out the door he imediatley tried to go back in. I know that I can never let my guard down and have put extra screen covers over the doors but knowing he doesn't want to go out, that the world is scary gives me some breathing space at least in my head.
Gretta has gotten in the position lately of standing close to me and watching Kernal and I interacting. She just stands still and watches it's kinda spookey but I guess she's working her way in. She actualy goes past the goodies to join us so it isn't food motivated. She has also started to come out of her room to the kitchen in the AM for breakfast. I used to have to wheel her cage out, who knows maybe the big play perch will get used eventually.

EM,
no toe pinch. Well he wouldn't go in the bedroom. So
Bev- is this okay.
I now go to the bed room with roller cage Gretta runs ahead and waits outside the bedroom, Kernal rides the top of the cage. I park the cage Gretta comes in and climbs up. Treat is in sleep cages. If I lay down and hide my hands both willcome to me and examine what I have if anything. Gretta gets close & Kernal will land on me. Then after about 15 min Gretta is in her cage, I put Kernal in his and good night.
This has been 2 nights so far K doesn't resist being put in. No toe pinch but kinda get him in before he resist.

#211105 - 10/24/09 03:25 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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What does this mean? Can you operationalize or describe what you are doing when you say this, " no toe pinch but kinda get him in before he resist".

If he is resisting, then you are taking away his free choice. Gretta seems to be coming along. What happens if you "ask" Kernal to step up?

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#211108 - 10/24/09 09:13 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Hold
Pin
Pinch

All 3 words MAY have different meanings to us, to our birds it is a universal language - "you have no choice".


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211111 - 10/24/09 04:12 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Bev, Kernal will try to find my hidden hand wich results in him getting head scratches so he snuggles then after Gretta goes in I get up talking nice to him and lean towards the cage. He goes in with out a fight. If I approach the cage with him on my finger and do not have a finger on his foot or his back he will spread his wings and leave. If I allow him to climb off of me with it seeming like it's his decision he quietly goes good night.

I have always placed my finger on a toe or my hand on the back for guidence. Most of my cage doors are around chest height on me so that meabs like for Kernal he is decending (sorta) to get in the cage. With BB if I didn't do that he would flap to get to his cage often making it a clumsey landing.

Kernal just don't like to step up he will lay over to his side and turn his head up. I was thinking that with him going in nice. I've been getting him to step up to come out maybe we can later incorperate stepping into the cage. Once he doesn't mind going in. Kind of like going back an extra step? For now my hands stop at the cage door and I let him go in his self. Figureing that way he is the one resposible for finding the goodies inside and it is his choice to go in.
Is this a major screw up? My theory was to get him to accept the cage at bed time or when it is time to go in. Since I've been putting him in this way he doesn't scream at all (before he was upset to be put in he would scream and bang for a few minutes then quit. Now he just goes quietly good night.)

EM, I got your meaning that is why I quit holding his foot in any way. Thanks Deb

#211131 - 10/24/09 10:58 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Thanks for clarifying Deb. smile


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211142 - 10/25/09 06:29 AM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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If you are allowing him the choice of going in the cage on his own (no matter how you accomplish that), it is a good thing. I'm not sure what you are asking when you say "is this a major screw up"? Can you explain?

You absolutely can teach him to step up but first you need to earn his trust. You tricked him before. That's a no-no. LOL You must be honest in your dealings with him. If he's earned a treat, he gets that treat. If he's earned a tickle or a scratch, he gets that tickle or scratch. If you only ask him to step up to go into his sleeping cage, of course, he's not likely to step up but if you ask him to step up many times during the day (for a brief momen) and take him to do something fun, he will learn that when he gets on your hand, good things happen. Make sense?

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#211241 - 10/26/09 06:40 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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is this a major screw up"? Can you explain?

During the day Kernal will not step up as a rule. He will lay his head down and clatter his beak (not make noise just move it open and closed) that is if he is on an object. If he is on a person and I ask him to step up mostly he will but if he is on me or the sofa (next to me) and I ask him he digs his one foot in and puts his head down like a puppy if I ask again he will roll over still holding on with one foot and lay on his back. (is this typical behavior??)
So what I was asking is should I be working on the step up as opposed to getting him in the cage but after rereading it I guess what ever comes first is good. We got a life time no hurry.

#211243 - 10/26/09 06:42 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Thanks for asking.

#211249 - 10/26/09 07:02 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Personally, I think it sounds pretty damn cute but it seems to me he is saying "I want to stay with you".

Yes, you should be working on the step up because once he does that you can get him into the cage but the step up requires work, trust and honesty. If you only ask him to step up to put him back in his cage, then why should he step up but if you ask him to step up and you do something fun like dance or go look out the window, he will learn that stepping up means good things happen.

You might have to shape this behaviour. When you ask him to step up does he do what you said above every time? Does he always refuse to step up?

Bev


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#211255 - 10/26/09 07:32 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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Originally Posted By: FunnyFarm
if I ask again he will roll over still holding on with one foot and lay on his back.


AWWWWWWW, that is pretty damn cute!!


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#211260 - 10/26/09 08:36 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: EchosMom]  
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Hey Em & Bev, It is stinking cute and he does lots of stuff like that but it's all so he can shape my behavior. (hehehehe)

Bev, he only does that if I want to remove him from being near me. Like if I want him to let my guest eat in quiet on the sofa he won't leave or if it's something he don't want to do. If it is to be with me he comes along peacefully. It's like he can sence when things aren't going the way he wants.
If he wants to come out of his room he will give an uhhuhh chirp. I go he will step up then. If something makes him nervous or there is a change in the enviroment he will step up then. but he seems pretty independent that only when he wants to or he knows it is going to benifit him.
He never hesitates to put on the cute act to get what he wants. Rubs his head up and down your arm or burrows his head under your hand to rub it. Turns upside down with feet in the air, nibble your ear and roll off of your shoulder one of these days I need to watch the training trick video to see just what he may know and how to get him to do it. Some of his mannerisims are such as I've never seen. And have never had a bird as trusting as he is.
The way an adult would hold a baby in the crook of your arm with the baby on it's back is one of his favorite positions. Just play with his feet or rub his under beak and he's happy.
How would we shape his behavior and what do you mean by that.
You see none of this is an actual problem. I think he is almost perfect, but it is more pleasent for all of us if he goes to bed in his cage. Stepping up is nice too. But he doesn't mind being scooped up matter of fact he seems to like being held like an ice cream cone. Put your hand losely around the base of his body by the tail, tail in hand and his feet hold on to my thumb. Loves you to walk him around like this. Is he nuts???? Or just cute

#211264 - 10/26/09 08:50 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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But you are taking away his choice when you scoop him up. There is such a thing as learned helplessness and the bird does not even try to put up a struggle because they have learned that there is no point. Nikki was like that with a towel and even though in the beginning, I had no problem picking her up in the towel, it made me really uncomfortable. I told someone that I felt she had just given up trying to struggle because they picked her up in the towel anyway. I worked on the step-up and I waited some days for 5 minutes or I would walk away and come back and try again and now because I have paired myself with so many wonderful things, she steps up like a little trooper. Occasionally, she will hesitate and I wait because I want her to trust me. She must make the decision whether or not to step on my hand. In the morning, she's practically buzzing waiting for me to put her in her cage. It's incredible and it feels so much better than scooping her in that towel. Understand what I am trying to say?

Bev

He sounds wonderful but it could be even better.


Owner: DebRan Bird Toys
#211276 - 10/26/09 10:22 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: ZazuSally]  
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yes I understand and I do want it to be as good as it can.
So when I request he step up and he decides to jump on me/my shoulder or head instead of finger how should I address that? Just let it be or continue to try and get him on my finger at that time? wait until the next time?
Like when he flys to my head if I duck he just swoops around and comes back. Or when I ask him step up with a finger he looks at it and becomes a too broch. (not always just on occasion) Thanks Deb

#211297 - 10/27/09 02:36 PM Re: Functional Analysis - September 20, 2009 [Re: FunnyFarm]  
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You take him off over and over again until he gets it. I have been working with Zazu about flying to my shoulder uninvited. So I started telling her to "get off" and when she complies I praise her and give her some scratches. Now I just tell her to "get off" and she does. Most of the time she will fly off but 30 seconds later she's back again (she is a goffin LOL) but I can shape longer periods off my shoulder if it starts to bug me that much. Most of the time, I think it's OK but when I'm trying to do something and I have Zazu peeking over my shoulder, acting like my supervisor, it gets annoying. LOL

You need to teach him that when he gets on your hand, that is a good thing. What are his very, very favourite things/treats?

Bev


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