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#177429 - 09/10/08 06:21 AM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: Fancy'sMum]  
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Kim, what would you like him "to do". Give me 3 things. How long has he been with you? Has he been vetted?

FeatheredAngel: you are on the right track. It boils down to if you allow your bird choices, if everything you do to them and with them is positive, then you will get out what you put in. You just keep building that positive bank account. And what do you do when Ozzie wants training time? Does his display bother you? I can picture that swaying back and forth and I'm thinking "I bet that's a pretty cool thing to see". Am I right?

Fancy's Mum: Attack is a construct. Does he actually bite? Draw blood? Does he do this with everyone or just certain people?

I know people who potty train their birds. I personally don't believe it's a good thing. I've heard too many stories of birds that prolapse their cloacas. Especially cockatoos.

Bev

Now can everyone tell me what a construct is and why you shouldn't use it?

PS: I've just started a new thread on the PBAS list so please be patient. Janet is here to help.



Last edited by ZazuSally; 09/10/08 06:23 AM. Reason: Added something.

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#177446 - 09/10/08 08:37 AM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Shoot I new I shouldn't have skipped school.Look I missed out and now I am booted. frown


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#177457 - 09/10/08 01:36 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: Janny]  
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A construct is a feeling or emotion that you "think" your bird is showing.
Example: Love (my side)- Lily shows me love by rubbing the side of her face on my cheek.
(Lilys thought) I want to get a closer look at that nose in case I ever want to take a bite of it.
You shouldn't use it, because there is no way to really know what she is thinking. Sharon

Last edited by umbimom; 09/10/08 01:39 PM.
#177463 - 09/10/08 03:07 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: EchosMom]  
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Great, EM, Thanks!! Now, I'll be on my way to trying to correct some annoying behaviors so life around here will be more enjoyable for humans and birds alike!

Umbimom - your definittion of a construct sounds right on!

Annette

Last edited by MissYumYum; 09/10/08 03:08 PM.

The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step - Old Chinese Proverb
#177464 - 09/10/08 03:11 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: umbimom]  
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You're not booted Jan - you haven't missed too much. Just go back to the beginning and jump in!


Birds are angels who lift us up when our own wings forget how to fly.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world - indeed it is the only thing that ever has!" ~~~ Margaret Meade ~~~

Noelle, A Rehabilitation in Progress
#177470 - 09/10/08 03:29 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: EchosMom]  
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A construct is a label(usually a human emotion) we use to describe a series of behaviors to rationalize what we think is going on. Not what is actually going on. We need to describe what we actually see as individual behaviors.


John
Another 24 hours down. Only a lifetime to go. God speed! ~AngiesArk~ laugh
#177481 - 09/10/08 04:19 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: TiKa's Dad]  
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I'll be dropping out of school here. Bill doesn't really have behaviours that need changing, and the new bird is Sue's to train at this point (we'll see how that goes). However, I will audit the class purely for my own edification.


Wanna Bill? Wanna Bill?
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Dontcha wanna Bill? Dontcha wanna good boy?
#177491 - 09/10/08 06:16 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: spinnyspoo]  
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Quote:
Kim, what would you like him "to do". Give me 3 things. How long has he been with you? Has he been vetted?



Is this a trick question? smile

I have had Tori for 1 year and 4 months. He is a 12 year old Male Moluccan. Yes, he has been vetted and is in fine health. He has been rehomed many, many times in his short life. No matter the outcome of our relationship, he is here to stay.

What would I like him "to do"

1. Step up and transport without biting
2. Allow me to preen him without biting
3. ??

I just read this on one of the ParrotBAS mini lessons. ( I am also following along on the thread you just started!)

Constructs are words that describe what an animal "is." They do not describe what the organism does given certain conditions.

Kim

#177496 - 09/10/08 06:35 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: spinnyspoo]  
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Bird is-Gabby

Label is-fear

Operationally define:

Sits very low with head down,feathers tight against his body,trembling and shaking his whole body,leaning as far away from the object he is scared of.

So would a construct example be Gabby is phobic? Istead of defining what I see I label him and his behaviour?

First behaviour I would like to change would be Daubbie not going onto Gabby's cage.

Second would be Ripley not mimicing Gabby's seizure.

third would be (shoot I ็an't use people lol) Bailey not making the dogs howl many times a day.


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
#177506 - 09/10/08 08:00 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally

FeatheredAngel: you are on the right track. It boils down to if you allow your bird choices, if everything you do to them and with them is positive, then you will get out what you put in. You just keep building that positive bank account. And what do you do when Ozzie wants training time? Does his display bother you? I can picture that swaying back and forth and I'm thinking "I bet that's a pretty cool thing to see". Am I right?


We are fortunate that we can pretty much bend our schedule around Ozzie. We both work from home. When Ozzie wants training we both get very excited, start talking to him and give him about a 10 to 15 minute training time. We actually encourage training a few times a day, however Ozzie sometimes prefers more lol and we have no problem in obliging him.

Nothing Ozzie does in his displaying, calling or screaming bothers us a bit. We understand Toos and we love hearing all of his noises, however we also understand he is still young and all this could change and that is why we want to do everything possible now to help prevent issues in the future.

Ozzie can be loud but we don't mind, our neighbors on both sides of us have large birds as well so nobody minds it around here lol. Ozzie is out with us 12 hours a day and included in everything we do, so he really is such a happy boy. So even though we dont have issues atm, I still so want to be part of this group and learn all that I can, never know when another Too may come along with issues and needs a forever home here with us.

Deborah



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A Too is not a pet, it is a choice for life!


#177536 - 09/10/08 09:34 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: FeatheredAngels]  
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Thanks EM! cool

1)Construct: Cassie's scared
Operationalized: she is trembling all over, standing tall with feathers tight to her body, and darting her head to see in all directions(she only has one eye)

2)Behavior #1: Hanging on the front of her cage and bouncing up & down while going through her entire repertoire of words when she sees the vacuum and spray bottle come out.
Behavior #2: Reaching over and tugging my clothes when she wants attention.

3) I'm not sure that there's any behaviors I want to stop , but I would like to get her more comfortable going to areas away from her cage. I guess I want her to stop making a beeline for her cage whenever we're more than 3 feet away. If it has to be a behavior to try to stop, I want to stop her from yelling when I'm in the den watching tv and she's in her cage.


~ Nikki

The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience. -Leo Tolstoy
#177546 - 09/10/08 10:01 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: Cassie's_girl]  
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Quote:
I want to stop her from yelling when I'm in the den watching tv and she's in her cage.


Good luck with that one. (You can change the screaming to calling).

If I was Cassie. I would be thinking you get to sit on the couch and watch TV, while I get to sit here in the cage. I will NEVER let you hear the end of it.

If I was Cassie :-)


John
Another 24 hours down. Only a lifetime to go. God speed! ~AngiesArk~ laugh
#177555 - 09/10/08 11:19 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: TiKa's Dad]  
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I think we're supposed to stick to our 'homework' and let EM and ZazuSally 'correct' it, but I want to clarify the matter for John, and others, so here goes:

Well, if Cassie would venture that far from her cage she would be WELCOME to sit and watch with me. I do contact call with her when I'm out of her sight. The den is out of her sight, and she will occasionally contact call when I'm in there, but she only screams when she hears the tv. The den has a door, so I just close the door and it doesn't really bother me. She stops after 10-15 minutes. I was just trying to think of a behavior I wanted to change for the exercise.

I look forward to the day she is willing to hang out on the couch with me, but it's been a long, slow process just getting her out of her cage at all, and I suspect it will be a longer, slower process getting her comfortable out of sight of her cage.

***as before, moderators please delete if this 'muddies the waters'***


~ Nikki

The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience. -Leo Tolstoy
#177558 - 09/10/08 11:31 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: EchosMom]  
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Construct: Relaxed

Operationalized:
While on his perch- One leg is lifted in the air, tucked into his down feathers. His feathers are fluffed slightly, but not on full display. He will grind or click his beak gently as his eyes droop half way and the cheek feathers pull forward slightly.
While sitting in one's lap- Lola "lays" down by resting his body on his feet, his head comes forward and down, nuzzling into clothing or blanket. A few soft whistle like churps are emitted if you scratch his head, as he closes his eyes and turns his head to lay it as if drifting off to sleep.

Construct: Nervous/scared

Operationalized:
Feet grips onto perch or arm tightly, feathers pull into the body closely. Head stretches high and the muscles in the abdomine begin to tremble. Stares down intently at the object causing the reaction, never turning back to it. If enough danger is assumed, tries to B-line it up my arm (if able) and down the back of my shirt to coward in.

Contruct: Playful Joy

Operationalized:
Wings are stretched out a few inches from the body, and are fluttered. Head bobs up and down, side to side with crest raising slightly. High pitched, but not loud screams are emitted briefly before continuing to toss about in the water or tossing the toy.


I pitty those who are locked in their mind, never openning it to the truth.
#177564 - 09/10/08 11:56 PM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally
Fancy's Mum: Attack is a construct. Does he actually bite? Draw blood? Does he do this with everyone or just certain people?

I know people who potty train their birds. I personally don't believe it's a good thing. I've heard too many stories of birds that prolapse their cloacas. Especially cockatoos.

Bev

Now can everyone tell me what a construct is and why you shouldn't use it?


Thanks for the catch.

Attacking feet: Fancy will climb down off her cage quickly, and with head down, feathers smooth, beak forward she will 'pin' her eyes on her target mainly slippers or feet and charge. I will get a quick bite, no blood (or rip at the slipper fabric) and then she walks back to her cage, stopping to hop-hop-hop in circles and making happy (opps - almost did it again - chirping, clicking) noises. This happens to both me and my stepson only when my husband is home. We erred in the begining as he would then tell her off.

Potty training - thanks. Will cease that then, plus this is one area she's not responded to.

Last edited by Fancy'sMum; 09/11/08 12:02 AM. Reason: missed a word!

Juliana
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#177567 - 09/11/08 12:06 AM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: Fancy'sMum]  
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What is a construct (my definition) - assigning emotions to behaviour. Preferred to view the behavious as actions (body language, sound, speed).



Juliana
Owned by Fancy the U2

Until you have loved an animal, your soul will stay unawakened
#177571 - 09/11/08 12:50 AM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Originally Posted By: ZazuSally

Now can everyone tell me what a construct is and why you shouldn't use it?


Construct is placing a label on a certain action, giving a set definition so to speak.

I think the reason we should not do this is because each bird is a study of one. And by saying that "action X" means thus, we aren't fully looking at what it may mean to other birds. Also a combination of different actions may mean something all together different even if "action X" is included.

Deborah


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A Too is not a pet, it is a choice for life!


#177580 - 09/11/08 01:31 AM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: FeatheredAngels]  
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Construct is using a word to describe what you THINK the bird is feeling, or how they're acting; instead of describing the behavior as you see it.

We should not use a construct because we can't know how they're feeling, or why they're acting that way. We should describe observable behaviors because that's all we really know for certain.


~ Nikki

The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience. -Leo Tolstoy
#177611 - 09/11/08 06:23 AM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: Cassie's_girl]  
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John, teaching ABA in this way is a very difficult thing to do and I really need some structure in the way it is done. I'm asking in the most positive, least intrusive way that you let all responses to those posting come from Janet and I. I hope you signed up for the LLP course because we need all the help we can get. Thanks.

Sharon, your descriptions were excellent.

Kim, no trick questions from me. Step up is a huge step for any bird. Humans have taught him to communicate "no" by biting and see how effective it is? You can change that. You need to start a new relationship from ground 0. We need to listen when our birds tell us they don't want to do something. If you build up a relationship based on mutual trust and respect, "a bird's no" will become a thing of the past. Can you think of 3 of his favourite treats?

Constructs are what we think something is. For example, you can't know what someone is thinking and you can't know what your bird is thinking or feeling. That is internal to them. Behaviour is something you can describe in clear, observable terms and it can be changed with the right reinforcers.

Janny, yes phobic is a label. And you were right on the money that once you put that label on, it kind of lets us off the hook instead of focusing on the behaviour your bird is exhibiting that can be changed. And Janny, make Daubbies cage more reinforcing to Daubbie than Gabby's cage although that is a tough one. Two of my birds do it but it's not an issue. What is the issue in your cage? I mean I can see how a conure invading a Greenwing's cage could be a serious problem. Is that it?

Lola, excellent description of relaxed.

Fancy's Mom, yep, telling her off would be reinforcing the behaviour if it was attention that she was after.

You are all doing an excellent job!!!

We humans seem to think that birds have to do what we want them to do, when we want them to do it. That's where we run into trouble. If we allow our birds as many choices as possible in their daily lives, it will enrich their lives. It will build a relationship based on trust and respect. And I know that's what what we all want.

Bev

Any questions?





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#177623 - 09/11/08 11:12 AM Re: It's showtime - School is in. [Re: ZazuSally]  
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Quote:
What is the issue in your cage? I mean I can see how a conure invading a Greenwing's cage could be a serious problem. Is that it?


The issue with Daubbie going on Gabby's(CC2) cage is that Gabby is very fearful of any of the other birds getting too close to him.All the rest of the flock just stick to their own play areas on the top of the cages and above the cages from the ceiling.I don't really know why the attraction to Gabby's cage top but he always wants to be there.I put him back on his cage and I hear him flap his little wings and there he is right back on top.I have moved him to a different area of the bird room,I moved Gabby as well.I moved him into the spot where Gabby is but he just is attracted to Gabby's area or Gabby.Now where the trouble comes in is that Gabby is my epileptic and he has some balance issues so when he is trying to get away from the little green guy he usually falls pretty hard off his cage onto the floor.I do have blankets around his cage to break his falls but sometimes he misses and that is not good.When we are talking fight flight or freeze in a situation Gabby would be the flight but he goes blindly and flees into the wall or he falls badly to the floor.He is fully flighted but since his seizures he falls instead of fluttering down.One thing I hate to do is take Gabby right out of the bird room...but that may be my only option maybe to get him safe from Daubbie.(you would think it would be the other way around).


Jan

Sometimes damaged goods are the best gifts the world has to offer
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