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#102250 - 12/11/03 12:58 AM Should they be sold?  
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Jerry Offline
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I have felt for many years that the large 'Toos should not be bred and sold until we can get a grip on all the problems that come along with these birds. ( Like you didnt know that about me).

My question is this: Does ANY member of this board feel differently? If so, would you be willing to discuss your opinion? I'm not looking for a "fight".. but maybe an informative debate?

Those who feel like I do neednt post that fact, as it will just waste space on this topic. I'm looking for anyone who feels that the large 'Toos should be bred and sold (and yes you must include the fact that if so.. they will be sold in pet store chains like PetSmart)

If a debate does get started, others may join into the debate at that point.

#102251 - 12/11/03 03:02 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Well you have opened this one up and my personal opinion is not so much should they be sold because they are and will be unless there are regulations and rules in place from the governments of countries that have money to halt the sales. To stop the sales you will either have to make it illegal to own the birds or breed them. Some places have exotic licenses in place and this slows sales but it doesn't stop them.

Lets face it most of us live in "have" countries and can afford to purchase these birds and all the accountrements that go with them.

Pet stores are a convenience store for the sale of animals and if it was a perfect world they would not be able to sell these birds. Specialty stores with proper education of potential buyers would be prefered.

I hope that the discussion can be rational and without rancor when I say that I recognise that appropriate and judicious breeding of certain species should be allowed to proceed and the sales of the offspring to a well educated public.

I recognise that not everyone educates themselves in the habits of their pets and their are loads of sugar gliders, tortoises and other exotics out there looking for homes. Perhaps what we need to have is a 30 day cool off period so that persons can evaluate the purchase that they are about to make prior to even receiving it.

We do it with guns and believe me some of these birds are a loaded weapon just waiting to go off.

We can't stop the sales so we have to make the effort to find another approach. I am not sucking up when I say that this site and your committment is one step in the right direction and I know that I always ask people to take a look at it first prior to a rescue, adoption or purchase of a bird. For each person that sees it and appreciates what is here that is one more educated individual that will at least have information. What they do with it is of course up to them.

Lets begin with the discussion and keep it on an even keel. I really like you people so lets not make any attacks on me personal. We haven't even touched on the breeders themselves but we have to starts someplace.

Thanks.S.G eek

#102252 - 12/11/03 03:38 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Jerry you say that you do not think that large toos, should be bred and sold. Do you feel differantly about smaller 'toos???

#102253 - 12/11/03 04:25 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Personally... no... but realistically.. yes. I think a person stands a much better chance with a Goffins as opposed to a Moluccan. (But this is opening another kettle of fish). So lets just say all 'Toos.

#102254 - 12/11/03 04:58 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Ok... I hope the day arrives that the US government offers the same protection to the precious exotic non native species as we do the common Blue jay. ( which by law has the same protection as a Bald Eagle). We would have to be licensed and inspected. Yes, I know that's a dirty thought to many, but at least I'd like to see the 'Toos fall into that category. I'm sure many will disagree with this idea but I cant think of another way to solve the problem other than an outright ban.

I simply cant understand why people THINK it's perfectly alright capture... cage...and take away the normal life of an exotic bird, while never considering for one single second doing the very same thing to our native species. For instance, Blue Jays and Crows make as good a "pet" as the Goffins or Umbrella and are VERY smart. But we somehow consider THEM to be wild ... while we consider the parrots to be DOMESTICATED. As most of us know... the parrots are just as wild as the Crow!

I guess in our selfishness to have these creatures close to us .. we will use any "logic" to justify this. But the fact is that 95% of us cannot provide for these birds needs. Food, mates, freedom to fly is nothing but a dream of almost ALL of these captive birds. This lack of being allowed to "be a bird" is what really takes it's toll on the 'Toos especially. In our selfishness and greed (sellers) we have managed to make a mockery of these wonderful creatures life.

I'm all for the keeping of animals who can tolerate (and even enjoy) being kept. I'm all for those who can actually provide a natural environment for those who cant tolerate being kept. (less than 5%) But at the rate we're going right now, I see nothing but trouble ahead with no end in sight.

#102255 - 12/11/03 11:21 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Who can look out their window and watch the wild birds with their freedom and not feel guilt about our captives? It's my opinion that no bird should be caged.

I feed the outside birds at my home and then see the exact type of bird being sold at a store in a little tiny cage. What a different life that store bird has from the ones I feed.

A bird should want to fly and want to be outside. My M2 had obviously never been outside before moving in our home. He was afraid to be outside, and still will only stay out if I'm right there. He is terrified to be outdoors??? What has been created? A creature that is frightened of what should be natural for him? And why? Because someone wanted a bird to use as a breeder to make money.

It's not just the TOOS. They have a harder time of it because of their intelligence I believe. They are not domesticated, dogs are. Dogs adore us and if raised properly, they are wonderful pets. Birds...well, ask the people who own them if they trust their bird not to bite them? My Jack Russell Terrior would not bite me to save her life, think I'd say the same about my M2?

I know that this is an issue that I may stand alone on, I know that most probably think that smaller birds are fine to keep. Next time you're thinking that, look outside and watch the wild ones.

I am here to learn as much as I can so that my captive bird can have the best life possible with his lot in live. I HATE it that he was not hatched in the wild and I wish that he never had the misfortune to have to live in my home. Since he is not capable of surviving in the wild, I feel it's my job to make sure that he's as happy as he can be.

There are so many expectations for wanting our birds to act a certain way and be cuddle bugs. If they want it, give it to them, but on their terms, not ours. It's my opinion that they are not pets at all. They are prisioners. It may not be our fault...but if we buy from a breeder or petstore and make the decision to have them as a "pet", then is it our fault?

If we've obtained our birds and we were ignorant to the plight of these animals, then it's because we were not educated (or of another opinion than mine) and the guilt felt at that point is self imposed. I would NEVER judge someone who bought from a breeder because it's not my place, it's their's. We have to look inside ourselves for the answers, and decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong on these issues. I only ask that before anyone buys a TOO, look outside and observe the wild birds first.

Cynthia

#102256 - 12/11/03 04:11 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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What do you think of cockatiels? I understand that all non-Australian 'tiels (or, most of them) are from those exported before the 1890's. I don't think most of those birds would survive in the wild. At what point do we consider those "domesticated"?

Just to play devil's advocate:
How about the deforestation in the areas where these birds natively live? Should all affected birds be collected for zoo breeding programs to preserve them? Or do we take the hard-line that species go extinct, and humans are simply playing an innocent part of nature by destroying the enviroment (I have heard that argument, not making it up).

#102257 - 12/11/03 06:38 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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It is the country of origin that has to have the laws and enforcment in place if they want to keep their wild creatures safe. Reciprocal laws in countries that import then also need to be in place.

Australia which frequently gets a bad rap for the treatment of it's wild cockatoos has stringent laws in place regarding the export of birds for several reasons and they have been in place since the late 1950's. Technically, therefore unless you have a wild caught bird from that period, have brought one out with you with all the appropriate papers, it is a bird that has either been smuggled out or bred outside of the country.

Does a bird that is bred outside of its natural enviroment, is hand raised, hand fed etc, retain it's wild character? A good question eh? It certainly has natural instincts but could this bird ever be returned to the wild and be expected to survive?

Once again Mankind has interfered with the natural order and we can only try to do our best to make the best homes for these birds that are around us and being bred.

Stricter regulations need to be put into place and bad breeders need to be put out of business.

Are you prepared for more federal, state, municipal government in your life to attain these goals? That becomes the real question.

Are you as an owner of a too prepared to license your bird as you would a cat or dog in whatever country you live in? This could be a big fee to limit the number of birds sold. If some abitrary inspector comes in and makes a claim that you are abusing the bird are you prepared to defend how you care for the bird? Are you prepared to give it up if all the powers that be decide that you should not own the bird?

Believe me there are currenly municipalities in Canada taking a serious look at severly restricting certain pet ownership and in some instances cockatoos are on the books. I know that the AACC in Canada through some of it's directors has been involved in these battles already.

I keep birds because they improve my quality of life and I try to make sure that theirs is the best possible. My galahs certainly have it better here than they did before even though the person that had them thought that they were doing all the right things.

We do rescues and fostering when possible and educate, educate, educate. We do not encourage the purchasing of toos but if the person seems right, has done the homework and appears to be committed we hope that we have been able to provide a good home for another bird that is already existing by whatever means. We will never be able to stop the flood but perhaps we can slow it's inexorable advance.
S.G

#102258 - 12/11/03 11:52 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I havenít posted to this sight but maybe twice to get some information, but with the opening of this discussion and the thread that was closed the other day, I feel itís time to jump in.

I bought my bird from a breeder, as it was I had to drive from Kansas City to southern Louisiana to get her, but if I could have afforded to I would have bought her from the local Petsmart or Petland.

I respect the opinion that these birds should never be sold or bred, I just donít necessarily agree with it. It doesnít make sense to me that large parrots are put in one category and all other birds in another. If toos are wild and tiels and others are not, when exactly did domestication start with these other birds, and at what point can or will we call the too a domesticated bird? All animals were wild at one time and all animals have at the very least ďsomeĒ of their wild instincts. Show me a dog or cat that doesnít bite and they are probably stuffed. Thatís how they communicate fear, uneasiness, happiness, etc. itís the same for toos. It doesnít necessarily mean they are wild and canít be happy in captivity. I for one believe my Pmo to be happy and fulfilled, I can see it in her in our everyday interactions, and I donít think anyone could convince me otherwise.

I am just as appalled at the abuses that take place as anyone else, there are people in this world that that would do harm to animals no matter what you or I say, we can do our small part to stop it, and thatís what we can do. But on the other hand, I believe that there are many petshops and breeders that truly love their animals as much as you or I. Its my belief that the fact they buy sell and breed doesnít have anything to do with how much they care for and love their animals/birds.

We all have different opinions on whatís best for toos, but it seems at times there is much debate on who loves their too more, your side or my side.

#102259 - 12/12/03 01:22 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Patrick, interesting perspective and thanks for adding your opinion. I think that's what we are after in order to look at directions that we can each add to our lives and do the best that we can.
S.G

#102260 - 12/12/03 02:02 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I liked the cooling off period idea and would like to propose another. How about making classes manitory to purchase a bird? We have to pass a test to get a license for our cars why not claases say of 6 months( this would weed out the impulse buyers too) and a test at the end?

I have had only really positive feelings have Toos in my life. I don't feel that we should import birds from the wild, but I think good responsible breeders should be able to breed and sell them.

Perhaps some laws regarding breeders and responsiblites to the people they sell to? Not telling people that Toos are like Golden Retrivers etc.. Have both them and Shelters teach the classes?

As to the problem of Toos being put into shelters did you know that cocktiels out number Toos in shelters? Why? Because they are so inexpensive "throw away" birds, but we don't hear people talking as much about them,. Why is that?

We need to get these shelters to do more education, and get birds adopted out instead of the ones that just keep them or at worst become hoarders.I know that they want to match the right person with the right bird so perhaps the claases idea would work? After passing you could then adopt a bird in whatever state you liked?

Thanks to this board I know that I will NEVER purchase or adopt a M2. I have heard them on my speakers and in pet stores and I don't believe a have the temperment to have one. They are much louder than both of my U2's put together. But I would not have known that if I hd not come here.
That is not to say that there aren't people that would be fine with that level of noise, just not me!

I believe in researching any animal that would come to live with me, I resarched U2's for a couple of years before I got Gyspy Rose, and adopted Shiloh from a friend that did not.she received the bird as a gift and couldn't handle the noise when Shiloh got to where she screamed constantly.

Anyone that has nay kind of pet should subscribe to magazines, read books and belong to websites such as this Knowledge and unconditional love is the key. Let the bird be abird as much as you can
Nan

#102261 - 12/12/03 02:43 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Who would impliment a cooling off period? A impulse buy is why people find themselves in trouble to begin with. A pet store or breeder is in the business to make money, and they want it as quickly as possible. I wondering how you could make that work?
Classes, how would one go about finding qualified people to run these classes. We are all very knowlageable...but even we have differences and who would follow up with any parrot owner who failed to take one? Our local animal control wont even pick up road accidents anymore.
Just wondering.

#102262 - 12/12/03 02:49 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
Are you prepared for more federal, state, municipal government in your life to attain these goals? That becomes the real question.
YOU BET I AM! In order to make a real change in these birds lives I'd even deal with the government if it would help! Falconers have done it for years and have absolutely no problems.

Quote:
Stricter regulations need to be put into place and bad breeders need to be put out of business.
OK... in my book, they're ALL bad breeders if they continue to breed knowing full well what the outcome is most likely to be! A breeder is not bad simply for selling to PetSmart (although they will have a special place in hell waiting for them) but bad for knowing that the creature they're selling has no business being held prisoner in some dumpy apartment cooped up in a too small cage (they're ALL too small!) and that this creature will most likely suffer simply for being born.

Quote:
If toos are wild and tiels and others are not, when exactly did domestication start with these other birds, and at what point can or will we call the too a domesticated bird?
Who made that statement? I said that SOME birds can handle captivity while others cant, simply because of the higher degree of intelligence and "wildness". The big 'Toos have proven this over and over.

The people who worry me the most are those who actually think that their birds are overjoyed just to live with them. I have said this a thousand times and I'll say it again: Turn the bird loose and see how much he loves you! While they certainly seem to make the most of their situation and even appear happy living with us... that couldnt be further from the truth. They are making the best of a bad situation and they will often show you at maturity or breeding time just exactly what they think of their situation.

People have made fun of me for making the following statement in the past (because they are ignorant enough to not want to face the truth) but I'll say it again:

" Unless you can provide everything INCLUDING the ability to breed... you are denying your bird the most important aspect of his reason to live. Birds have one of the most powerful sex drives in the animal kingdom. And when you deny this is true, then you deny everything else about them. Imagine yourself going throughout your entire life without sex. Now... place that burden on your parrot and tell me just how ecstatic he is to live with you!"

Quote:
How about making classes mandatory to purchase a bird? We have to pass a test to get a license for our cars why not classes say of 6 months( this would weed out the impulse buyers too) and a test at the end?
This is certainly a step in the right direction. But two problems still exist: First, places like Petsmart arent going to do anything to cause less sales. If they tell customers the truth, most wont buy the birds and so there's no point in carrying them. Second: Even the most well informed customer wont be able to provide the proper environment unless he or she is wealthy enough to build a huge outdoor aviary and allow the birds to be birds. That's the main problem facing these big 'Toos: Lack of natural environment. Once you've imprinted a 'Too... he's as good as dead unless that imprinting continues for the rest of his life. The odds of that happening are very unlikely. Even then... there's possibility of serious problems.

#102263 - 12/12/03 05:17 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Jerry,
I've been wondering about something for a while. You have a link to a breeder (albiet, a good one apparently) on your site, yet you seem to be very strongly against breeding and selling Toos. It seems very odd.

#102264 - 12/12/03 05:36 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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This just goes to show you how long it's been since I've re-vamped the main site. If you look again, you'll see it's gone. While that breeder was probably as good as any you'll find, I simply cant condone breeding whatsoever at this point.

#102265 - 12/12/03 09:05 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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As much as I love my Toos (4 of them and all rescued to some degree) I would give them back to nature in a heart beat if I could. I know that sounds corny and I don't say it for popularity. I personally would ban the breeding of all exotic birds for the pet trade. There are plenty in existence now. I try very hard to enrich my birds' lives in every way possible - diet, housing, intellect, social and yes, even sexual. (I do not believe in keeping only one of a species - but I will not allow breeding. In no way do I think that I am the best but what worries me the most is the "keepers" who seem to know less than nothing. Unfortunately any of those with the money can obtain the victim and so it goes. That is why I say ban it. If the government started to regulate it, they would collect fees or taxes and the birds would not really be any better off.

#102266 - 12/12/03 11:02 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Hi all, I'm a new poster but also a long time lurker.

Let me start off by saying that I do not own a Too. After reading all of this I would never want to own one and would support your cause. I will not however support the banning of ALL birds(i acknowledge that many of you do not either). They are not all the same and yes some are even domesticated such as the English Budgie. They have been bred for distinct features and for show. So the domestication of birds is very possible. Also I feel that people who have had bad experiences with larger parrots have no right to ruin it for owners of smaller birds who have nothing but good times with their pets. So someone screwed up and bought a Too. No need to screw over those who made a more suitable choice.

The topic of this thread seems to be in search of a good argument for the owning of a Too. Well I think from what I've read there really isn't a good argument, or at least one that will outweigh the argument against owning a too. I've read many of what Jerry has written and he definitely stays focused on the "Larger, intelligent" birds. It is a wise choice on his part because I think it becomes unreasonable when it goes beyond these birds, the argument loses weight. Most importantly, the argument loses support.

BTW I own budgies who enjoy free flight.
I also own a Pionus who is very un-neurotic. I would get him a friend if he didn't have PDD.

#102267 - 12/12/03 03:05 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Yes.. please keep in mind at ALL times that I am talking large 'Toos here. And unless you've ever lived with one, you have no idea of what I'm talking about. The big 'Toos are as different from other parrots as cats are from dogs. I've have many experienced parrot people tell me that they couldn't understand this UNTIL they actually took-in a Moluccan Cockatoo.

The first thing non cockatoo owners fear is someone trying to take their birds away or make it harder to keep them. The fact is that any future laws (and I seriously doubt you'll see this in your lifetime) will pertain to birds that are sold beginning at such and such a date and will not affect current owners.

Quote:
They are not all the same and yes some are even domesticated such as the English Budgie.
There is no such thing as a "domesticated" cockatoo. There are few if any "domesticated" birds at all. There are only birds that can tolerate and make the most of captivity. Given the choice, they would happily fly away to live their life in the wild and never look back. It's just that simple. Birds were never meant to be caged. That's why God gave them wings to fly. Those birds that cannot fly (like the Penguin) might make a much better choice as a "domestic" bird as long as you have enough fish on hand.. but we wouldn't even consider THAT would we.....? Wait! Dont answer that! eek

#102268 - 12/12/03 04:18 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I wasnít quoting anyone, I was simply putting into writing what I interpret as the gist of your argument, (big Toos are to wild to be in captivity), again I respect your opinion, I just donít agree.

With the exception of the ones that have problems, which is usually due to neglect and/or abuse, if they ďappearĒ happy to be living with us, how does anybody know that they are not? Just because a bird can fly, doesnít mean they are going to fly away from you given the opportunity. I wonít say it doesnít happen, but some choose not to fly away from their owners.

Any animal that reaches sexual maturity has the strong instinct to breed, listen to the yowling cats at night, watch the dogs that are trying to escape their owners when they think its time to breed that normally are very happy and content to be ďkeptĒ.

My argument is simply this, we as human beings have to some degree domesticated almost every animal on this planet, we canít help it, itís in our nature. Animals enrich our lives, and in some small degree I hope that we enrich theirs. Because of this we have created a market, petshops and breeders have there place there are good and bad, there are ethical and unethical, just like individual people. To me concentrating on getting rid of the bad and unethical is my time better spent than trying to bar ownership of a certain breed.

#102269 - 12/12/03 04:24 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I haven't had an M2/U2. Do not want one. Never wanted one, even before I found this site. My G2 taught me that I do not have the resources for anything much bigger than him.

I've only had 2 larger birds -- my G2 and my new baby CAG. So far (and she is only an 11-month old CAG), I've determined that people who may be experienced with CAGs have **absolutely no idea** about life with a 'too. Even a small 'too. Tuhi (CAG) is demanding, but nowhere near as emotionally and intellectually demanding as Sedgewick (G2) was. I cannot imagine how people have multiple 'toos of any species (other than 'tiels).

I like the "cooling off" idea. I love the mandatory classes idea (and it must include how to make safe toys!). These two should be combined, and people should be made to look at the self-mutilated bird pictures and listen to happy 'too displays.

I think these should be applied to all birds, tho. Poor little 'tiels. I know a person with a Bourkes who refuses to get bird toys since the bird "doesn't like them". Same person wants more birds!

I also like the gun law "cooling off" period, but you see how hard that is to enforce.

Coming from a security background, I know that enforcing laws is difficult. So is catching and proving a violation. Too many people just shrug and think "What can one person do?" or "Don't rock the boat", and never report the violation. (Which should explain some of my upset over the lack of ethics shown by some veterinarians.)

But since the "right to keep birds" is not in the Constitution, maybe the falconer's laws would work. Falconer's laws would also provide additional protection for stolen birds. From what I understand, you cannot sell a baby falcon, but if your birds happen to breed, you can *give* the young to someone (is that true?). If that's the case, the whole "profit from breeding" thing could disappear. (I think this is a *major* reason why you don't see raptors in petshops. After Harry Potter, you sure could have made a bunch on snowy owls if you *could* sell them!)

#102270 - 12/12/03 06:11 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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Rivercrow,

I agree with you 100%. Before I got my male Goffin, I had no idea what having a too would be like. I already had an Amazon, Pionus and Conure. All three of them put together are not near as demanding as my Goffin. I also would never have a U2 or an M2. I do not feel that I am able to handle the larger birds. But unfortunately some people are just not capable of realizing this and they purchase these birds and cannot handle them and they end up in rescues. I feel that a cooling off period would be great. Education would even better, but I feel that it would be difficult to regulate. I can only hope that there will continue to be compassionate people, such as the ones on this board, that will rescue and save these birds.

#102271 - 12/12/03 06:30 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I live in Australia. We have laws for having some of the larger 2's. We must pay a license fee & be available for inspections if required (rarely are). Sorry - but it just doesn't work. If I look through my local papers there are plenty of larger 2's for sale from backyard breeders who sell without permits. There are also many for sale from people who have no idea that THEY should have a license or permit as well. My sister in law just bought a baby MM2 without a permit & it was from a bird store. Add to all those loopholes the fact that the laws & licenses vary from state to state & it ends up as one big joke. I believe only a small minority of people obtain the correct permits.
As for owning them, I have been lucky so far. Only 1 slight feather plucker in my flock & I am confident that an aviary setting will stop this entirely. Yes mine mate, fly & associate me as a flock member but I have watched mine stare wistfully at their native cousins flying around free in full view, and I fully understand just what we have done to them! I also don't believe any bird is really domesticated. I do believe some just tolerate being caged better than others.
Out of my experiences in my own country, tiels & RB2's seem to do really well in captivity.BE2s & GSC2 less so. The worst pluckers I have seen here are BE2's and WTB's. In fact, most of the black 2's I have seen as adults in captivity pluck.
My thoughts on owning them are pretty much along the lines of what has already been stated. Licenses can work if the system is policed correctly. I also belive an aviary setting is the best for our birds if you have the room.

Eva....... smile

#102272 - 12/12/03 07:02 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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To rivercrow:

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From what I understand, you cannot sell a baby falcon, but if your birds happen to breed, you can *give* the young to someone (is that true?). If that's the case, the whole "profit from breeding" thing could disappear. (I think this is a *major* reason why you don't see raptors in petshops.
To answer your question, no you cant "give" away a baby falcon/hawk. You must be a licensed falconer/rehabilitator to own a hawk/falcon and even then you are limited to how many, depending on each states laws. So you wouldnt see them in pet stores anyway, they cant be sold OR given away.

Raptors (birds of prey) are a group of birds, which includes eagles, falcons, owls, kites, hawks, osprey and vultures. These birds of prey are protected through several laws, which include the Endangered Species Act, the Eagle Protection Act and the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. Violations of these laws can result in fines and/or imprisonment.

#102273 - 12/12/03 08:17 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Ah, I stand corrected. Thank you, Mona.

Regardless -- a falconry law applied to 'toos would take care of the breeding profit.

Raises another question: how do newly licensed falconers "come by" their birds? Thru cooperation with raptor rehab centers?

#102274 - 12/12/03 08:29 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Youre very welcome

New licensed falconers who wish to rehab or "own" a raptor must first apprentice and/or be sponsored by a general or master falconer for years sometimes or until the general/master falconer determines you are ready..(laws vary on the time, according to each state)

You must also prove that you have the facilities necessary to house a raptor. Here is just ONE states requirements, they may vary slightly from state to state, but this gives you an idea of what you must have in place to take in a raptor.

Get your facilities and equipment. You must, by law, have the following equipment: Aylmeri jesses - (including grommets, bracelets and jesses), leash, swivel, outdoor perch, scale [capable of reading Ĺ ounce (14 grams) or better] and a bath pan. In addition you must have a hawk house large enough so that the hawk will have freedom of movement. Generally an 8'x 8'x 8' cube is sufficient for a free-lofted red tail hawk. If your home doesn't permit a hawk house [home owner association, size, landlord, etc.], the hawk may reside at a different address. Not generally a good idea, but much better than not having a hawk. Your sponsor will help [supervise] you as you get this together. If you include a weathering area, it must meet state and federal requirements also.

After all this, depending on the state again, some allow trapping of a raptor, but most come by them thru their sponsors or rehab facilities.

As you can see, becoming a falconer by passing the test (which is hard in itself), is just the FIRST step in many. It took my dad YEARS to become a master falconer.
Hope that helps!

#102275 - 12/13/03 12:02 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I just received this today. I have hundreds of these stories now, and every time I get another one.. I wonder why I continue to defend myself and my philosophy on the cockatoo issue.

Quote:
I have two M2's one male, one female. Got the male 6 yrs ago he was 9 approximately. Didn't have any idea what I was getting into.

It was great for about 2 years . He was beautiful! Went to bird farm to get wings clipped and saw a female. The bird farm said they would make a fine pair just let them play together. The male now has a hole in his chest and plucks. Many vets I have tried to repair this. One says large aviary alone, other says put him with female.
I made two aviary's one in middle. They play for a while, then she wants me like shes scared. In the mean time I'm going crazy especially at night. She will play with him all day but at night wants out of there. He at night mutilates himself. Yes I know they shouldn't be together after all my reading. But when they're together he stops mutilating and she screams for him during the day. I would like to go after the bird farm for letting me get in this situation I know I did wrong. Any advice I would appreciate. Barbara

#102276 - 12/13/03 02:06 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Jerry brought up a really good point about captivity for our large Toos involving a lifetime of sexual frustration. This one deprivation alone is a major source of distress and difficulty for our Too's and their owners. The animals that we domesticate are generally neutered unless kept for breeding, and I think it makes for a better life for the individual. It also controls the population, and makes providing an otherwise happy life easier for the owner to accomplish. I recently discussed this with my vet, and asked her why we do not neuter our birds. She explained the difficulty of the procedure due to avian anatomy. She has herself neutered just a few males that were otherwise unliveable in captivity, and it's very risky. She said that safer effective endoscopic surgeries are being developed currently. I personally feel it to be a good idea if it could be a fairly safe operation. I would chose that for my male U2 if it were safe. I'm sure there may be long term consequences, such as increased risk of obesity, or bone density issues, but I feel it would be worth it in quality of life for all involved.
That would also add the option of allowing only neutered individuals to be sold for pets, just like limited AKC registration for dogs. Perhaps that could put a dent in our unwanted bird population. As things stand now, I do not think the big birds should be bred and sold. They are just way too much for most people to provide for and live with in the long run. My one little guy is more work than taking care of a barn of eight horses ever was. smile

#102277 - 12/13/03 03:16 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I have never understood why people assume any male bird paired with any female bird will work. Will any male human pair successfully with any female human?

The 'tiel hen I had had the choice of 2 courting males, and she chose one over the other. Neither male was interested in Ivan, our other 'tiel hen.

More human arrogance. Why assume that these horny birds just need a mate of the opposite sex for happiness? If my husband were a stereotypic hyper-macho-male, I'd probably self-mutilate too.

Isn't there something in psychology about inward and outward agression/depression? Is that what mutilation and "wife-abuse" are in 'toos?

#102278 - 12/13/03 03:55 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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you are correct about simply throwing in any bird and hoping that the new couple will get along. Birds are NO different than us in this respect! They spend a lot of time searching for just the right mate as we do. It's no wonder there are so many problems associated with pairs.

But lets not diminish the CRUSHING need to reproduce with simple "horniness". This need becomes a major frustration with them just as it does with us. And because they were never meant to be caged... there's not a hell of a lot we can do about it!! The odds of finding a real lifetime pair bond is rare. And most people wouldn't have the proper setup anyway.

So you see... in our selfishness to have these creatures as "pets".. companions or however you justify it... we have literally broken them to our will. And the result can be seen on our Torture Page.

#102279 - 12/13/03 04:03 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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What a conversation starter....'excuse me sir, where is the raptor aisle?'. eek
It is not only illegal but would be insane for a businessman to sell a harpy eagle to the general (and unsuspecting) public. Why should the larger cockatoos be treated any differently? These birds are not domesticated even if they can dance or shoot some hoops on command. I would love to see the sale and intentional breeding of these birds BANNED for the sake of this magnificant animal... an animal that, more often than not, suffers in the care of humans.

#102280 - 12/13/03 04:24 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I guess that we have just been lucky. We have a D2 and a U2 and for the most part, the U2 has been easier than the D2. The D2 is only 9 mos old but she can be a handful, very demanding but she is a little sweetheart. The U2 was adopted and we have not been able to get much history on him and for that reason, I say we have been lucky. He is a preener, but no picking, he does chew some of his feathers but he has a great disposition. We have only had him for about 4 mos and thanks to this board we are much more knowledgeable now than when we first became his forever home.

I know that some of the big birds come with a lot of baggage or just seem to have it in the genes. Who knows what they are thinking between those beautiful black eyes? We will continue to discover all sorts of things from our birds.

#102281 - 12/13/03 07:11 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I agree, Jerry--I figure a bonded bird pair has as much to do with simple horniness as a bonded human pair. The relationship is more complex than that, otherwise it wouldn't last once the initial urges were satisfied. Again, that's human arrogance that only we are capable of complex emotions.

#102282 - 12/13/03 11:50 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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How did the bans on other birds over the years happen? Or maybe even how did people get a liscensing law on falcons and such? Is there any way we could bring that up and have that done in at least some states or maybe even the whole country? The problem of people not understanding how to properly care for a 'too in ALL areas will only get worse if something drastic isn't done. This whole conversation has brought up many good ideas, and I for one say put them to use.

Also about the need to reproduce. I agree that they need to, but how can that happen without the female having a chance of getting pregnant? Even to help the species out. Taking care of a bunch of babies plus the needs of the parents could take a lot of time, money, and patience.

#102283 - 12/14/03 05:41 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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The pregnancy part is the least of our problems as we know how to handle that. The real problem is the astronomical odds of finding the perfect mates.

#102284 - 12/14/03 06:39 AM Re: Should they be sold?  

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The only way to find a good mate is to I guess go from one bird to the other? I'm not exactly sure how that would work out, but humans do the same thing. Go from person to person seeing who they click with the most.

#102285 - 12/15/03 02:41 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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it would be great if we had laws like the ones that were suggested earlier in this thread....
....but who would enforce them?
frown you know and i know that creating public sympathy for something like this is darn near impossible.
On another note, heres a question i have (ps. i don't condone the sale of these birds.)

what if there were no more forests and the people who fight for them lost? What if the jungle was gone?
what happens then?
I only bring this up because i am in another hobbie that has wild caught animals and creatures for the home (reef aquariums)
some of the wild places of the earth are almost gone forever.
I really wish we did have to jump thru hoops, to keep these birds, having them cooped up just isn't a right, and it isn't a priv, its a condition of the heart...a sadness for that which was wild, an apology for human indifference. And it is the best i can do.

by the way jerry, i don't live in a stinky apartment....lol i rent a two bedroom so the too's have their own room. Just thot you'd like to know. wink

The birds that exist already fill the need that is out there.
I think the laws that should be made would not be enforced.
I think it should be black or white, legal or not legal, and i am on the side of not legal.
I love my guys too much to doom them all to a miserable life.

#102286 - 12/15/03 07:33 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Given that we are humans and fallible--is there a chance that we incorrectly categorized big 'toos, and they may be a type of "raptor" in their environment? Sort of like shrikes?

I mean, after reading that aviculturists in Australia feed their MM2's mice and pinkies to prevent plucking....

(Okay, I admit it's far-fetched, but I haven't seen many field studies of 'too behavior and suspect they are understudied.)

#102287 - 12/16/03 05:32 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
what if there were no more forests and the people who fight for them lost? What if the jungle was gone? what happens then?
Ok... you tell me: What would you prefer? For the species to (possibly) become extinct, or to torture the birds in cages all their lives? I'll take a quick death to slow torture any day.

But lets look at it a little more realistically: If the forrest's disappear, we wont need the 'Toos anyway. (Or anything else that lives there at which point we'll all be at the mercy of the dangerous conditions we will have created). Everything in this world is here for a reason. Remove a link in the chain of life and you've started a chain reaction that even we cant answer the question of the consequences. So having the 'Toos only in cages wont help the environment and in return wont help man. They will be there for nothing more than pity or selfishness. This is sad because they are in their own way... just as valuable to the environment as any and every other animal and so we really cant afford to loose them in the wild.

#102288 - 12/16/03 07:56 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Hmmmm.... I'm still waiting for the philosophical debate. Whenever I think about wading in I remember the lesson learned from the Battle of the Little Bighorn ;-)

Cub

#102289 - 12/16/03 09:09 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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Well what do we do if we find the perfect mate for our birds? Breed them or just let them be together in separate cages (or one big one?) Is it possible to breed cockatoos and raise them to be released into the wild?

#102290 - 12/16/03 09:24 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
Ok... you tell me: What would you prefer? For the species to (possibly) become extinct, or to torture the birds in cages all their lives? I'll take a quick death to slow torture any day.
Jerry I wasn't going to ask this for fear of well the wave that may start ... but I have to ask.
You really in your heart think that people whom have toos including yourself that are in cages (mine mostly to sleep) that are fed very well, have great vet care and are taking care of with love, and caring are slowly bring tortured?

#102291 - 12/16/03 10:06 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
You really in your heart think that people whom have toos including yourself that are in cages (mine mostly to sleep) that are fed very well, have great vet care and are taking care of with love, and caring are slowly bring tortured?
IMHO, when you take a flock/herd animal and remove them from what nature intended, yes it is torture. Prisoners in max security are miserable. Prisoners in a "white collar" facility are not as miserable but they are STILL prisoners and so are our birds. so the bad homes out there are like the max. security prisons. The good homes are like the white collar prisons but they are STILL prisons. Prison is not how people were meant to live and cages were not meant to be how a bird should live ... at least the people did something to deserve their prison. JMHO.

#102292 - 12/17/03 12:09 AM Re: Should they be sold?  

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But they're as happy as we can make them under the circumstances. Well at least some of us are really trying. The way you put it makes it sound as though we shouldn't care for them in the first place, and just let them go. Problem is, there is no where to go and the only people who care seem to be us bird brains.

There has to be something we can do to improve our situation. Could we send in requests for a law stating that people must be educated and liscensed before owning a too?

#102293 - 12/17/03 12:23 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
The way you put it makes it sound as though we shouldn't care for them in the first place, and just let them go.
NEVER would I even insinuate that people should just let them go and I resent that statement. I was replying to the question of "even under the best home circumstances is it still a form of torture" and in my opinion, yes it is because it IS NOT HOW NATURE INTENDED them to be. All one can do is make the best of a bad situation as many of us try to do for our birds. EVERYONE here knows our birds can not be returned to the wild. If I thought that we should "all let them go" I #1 would not have birds in my care and #2 would not be a mod on this board spending my time trying to help others w/ their questions or offering suggestions to make life better for the captive birds in our care. Thank you.

#102294 - 12/17/03 12:41 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Sunny said exactly what I have said over the years, comparing these birds to prison inmates. Can both survive confinement? Usually, yes. But both man and cockatoo sometime commit suicide due to this confinement. Can both be happy now and then? Sure. Would both PREFER to be free, with all the things that go along with freedom? YOU BET THEY WOULD! And BOTH will often suffer the consequences of some mental changes for being confined!

Quote:
But they're as happy as we can make them under the circumstances.
That's no justification for the real misery we put them through over their long lives. And it's nothing.. absolutely NOTHING compared to what they'd feel flying free. So in review, being "happy as we can make them" is a very poor substitute for what they were placed on earth for. I don't know how many time I have to repeat this line: "Turn them loose and if they come back.. you can keep them with a clear conscience." However, if they fly away, never to be seen again... this is PROOF that they'd rather be free than be with you.

The animals will tell you all you need to know about what they prefer. I don't need to tell you what you can plainly see.

( PS.. the above paragraph was NOT to be taken literally of course)

#102295 - 12/17/03 01:12 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I know deep in my heart that were I to take any of my birds outside and let them go, they would fly away. Its that simple. I don't think any of them would even look back, well maybe my Quaker, he thinks I'm his mate so he might miss me and try to come home...but, maybe thats only wishful thinking on my part...But I also know that I can't let them go free because they are not in their natural environment and they wouldn't survive. So I don't do it. I love them, and they love me..thats also something I know deep in my heart. But everytime I see them looking up at the birds flying by when they're out on my porch (in their cages of course), I feel guilty..for keeping them in cages, and for being selfish enough to be glad that I CANT let them go, because I would miss them horribly.

#102296 - 12/17/03 01:29 AM Re: Should they be sold?  

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Please don't get me wrong on this. I'm not saying the best we can to do is good for them. And I'm also not saying that they'd prefer to stay over leave and be free. But there is NO WHERE to go and we can't do a d*mn thing about it! (Excuse that.)

Just like you I'd like to see all parrots in the wild where they truly belong. You know, where'd they be happy and able to do what they were meant to do.

But Jerry, don't you even feel a little good that it's you taking care of these birds and not some lunatic who doesn't care? Or what if your birds fate (if he was born in the wild) was to be captured and imported anyway?

I feel guilty about having any bird, but..where else are they to go..and what else can I do?

#102297 - 12/17/03 01:32 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Thank you for those honest heartfelt answers. I appreciate it more than you know.

#102298 - 12/17/03 01:52 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I'm a little late in this discussion, but I may as well jump in anyway smile

Do I believe U2's, M2's, and other 'common' cockatoos should be bred? No. There are more than enough neurotic, depressed, homeless cockatoos out there because of how selfish we humans are. There are few birds I AM for breeding, with the big exception of very rare and quickly diminishing species of parrots.

I think everyone is more or less at a loss for ideas that could realisticly help these beautiful animals anytime soon. Like Eva said, requiring permits and such could be done, but there are always loopholes people can use.

It dosen't sound like much, but education on what 'toos really are, may be the best way to go at this point. More and more often, i'm meeting other teenagers who are more accepting of the idea that parrots are more than pretty living room ornaments.

There will always be those few people that blow you away with their complete biased ignorance; the ones that no matter how much proof you offer will ALWAYS believe that animals, from mice to dogs, to tigers to birds, are nothing but emotionless pieces of DNA. Overall, however, young people seem to be more willing to learn about the intelligence, complexity, and wildness (did I just invent a word?) of parrots. If we continue to educate this--er--MY generation, we will more than likely have less backyard breeders when todays teenagers reach adulthood; and hopefuly, less impulse buyers. It's no quick fix of course, but this is really a "How do you eat an elephant?" situation.

I really agree with most of the people here. Cockatoos were born to do a few things; chew, scream, fly, forage, and reproduce. Humans were cruel enough to put an animal, no less wild than a lion, in cages not even comparable to the enviroment mother nature gave them. There have been many, many times Zeeba was sitting on my wrist, looked at me with his beautiful, black eyes, and whispered "I love you", and i'd just cry for a reason very few people outside the 'real' bird people would understand. I just wonder who in their right minds decided it would be a good idea to take an animal which was born to be free, and break it's spirit like this.

We can only hope that one day, cockatoos are back where they belong. If we're...well, if the 'toos are lucky, it will continue to get better, one generation at a time. While we won't live to see it, perhaps there will be a day where everyone knows how wrong it is to make these animals live the way they do now.

Katy

Oh, and an edited in note for patrick:

Take into account some of the times your bird is happiest. When he's screaming? Destroying a toy? Being preened?

This isn't because he likes the sound of his voice, or because that yellow monkey shaped piece of wood is beautiful, or because he just likes scritches. It's because times like those are when your bird is being the most 'bird like'. Like I said, birds were meant to scream, chew, fly, and reproduce. Your bird would be screaming all day, destroying trees, and be preened by his/her mate....multiply your birds happy moments by 30, and I reckon thats what life for him/her would be like in the wild. I think thats what Jerry meant by "making the most of a bad situation." They're just appreciating the few moments they get to do what they were meant to do smile

#102299 - 12/17/03 02:16 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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AprilLuvToos Said:

Quote:
But Jerry, don't you even feel a little good that it's you taking care of these birds and not some lunatic who doesn't care? Or what if your birds fate (if he was born in the wild) was to be captured and imported anyway?

Look.. my point is NOT to make people feel guilty. (at least not those who really care for their birds). My point is to get across that nobody ...and I mean NOBODY is doing these birds any favors by removing them from the wild and caging them. (This includes domestically bred birds who are only a couple of generations removed from the wild).

My point is not to make anyone feel bad, but to make it plain that you shouldn't feel that it's good, "normal" or natural to confine these birds as though they are little more than Canaries. For this species in particular... we aren't doing any favors.

To Katy: Wonderfully said! cool

#102300 - 12/17/03 03:15 AM Re: Should they be sold?  

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In NO way is taking in a cockatoo to be a "pet" or even a friend normal. They're still confined, and not as happy as they should be, I know that. I just want to do something about it, and that something is too huge to even try to imagine.

And it really is very hard not to feel guilty, even when you put the rest of your life into helping this one bird who doesn't even deserve to be here in the first place. I know she'd rather be using her wings in the wilderness, but I'm doing my best.

Katy, I am also hearing many younger people say more than just "what a pretty bird, I want one." But there is still that huge percentage that still say it. I guess the best we can do STILL is educate. Sigh...

#102301 - 12/17/03 06:54 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Very well said Katy, but...

I still don't agree with "these birds are just making the best of a bad situation". Most of these Too's don't know anything of freedom and being "wild". When Pmo notices flying birds, I see wonder and curiousness in her, not sadness. When she is screeching and tearing things up I see a very happy bird and I donít in any way discourage that behavior. The only thing she canít do is fly, and she has never known flying except the dashes across the room that I do with her on my hand, although she loves this, I donít think she is particularly sad about not being able to fly free outside. I think that I feel more sadness for her than she does.

As for being 30 times happier in the wild, I wouldnít count on it, nature is a great and wondrous thing, but it is also very cruel, and in all actuality there are only three ways to die in nature, being eaten alive, or getting sick, and while dying a slow painful death, get eaten alive, or being killed because your either considered a pest or hunted for sport. Donít get me wrong, I love the fact that there are wild free roaming animals, but I also acknowledge the fact that some of these animals (if not abused or neglected), can be very loving companions to their owners and be very happy where theyíre at.

#102302 - 12/17/03 07:37 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Is ignorance bliss??? I don't think it is.

My M2 is ignorant about what it is to fly or to have freedom. He doesn't know how to gather his own food or how to live in nature. He's been in captivity his whole life.

He may be ignorant to what should be natural to him but he does know things...He knows how to pluck himself. He knows how to fear hands and be terrified of people. He knows how to be cage aggressive and threaten anyone who moves.

Granted, he is responding and becoming more "tame" since moving into our home, but happy? Sometimes I like to believe he is, but I really don't feel he is. I think if the truths known, he's pissy because he's pissed off at his lot in life. I'm just grateful that he doesn't want to bite me. Some "happy" birds sure know how to take a plug out of their "loved ones". Mine doesn't bite, but I wouldn't blame him if he wanted to.

#102303 - 12/17/03 07:46 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I hate zoos. I hate seeing those beautiful lions and tigers pacing the cage back and forth, back and forth. Some of them were born in captivity and have never known "freedom" either, but does that mean they're better off or happy where they are? I doubt it.

God gave birds wings for a reason. To fly. Every bird in a cage is being denied that freedom, whether they know it or not. I know.

I have birds and I love them. I think my birds are happy, as happy as they can be confined to a cage or a room. Would they rather be outside flying around? You bet they would. We as humans have such a huge ego, we like to think that WE are capable of making these animals happy and they don't need any more than we give them.

Of course we can't let them go free, they would be killed or die. But it still makes me sad that they will never enjoy the freedom that eagle has that I see flying over my house.
The only thing I can do is make sure that I never again buy a bird from a breeder or a pet store. No, I'm not going to stop the breeding of these birds, I'm realistic enough to realize that. But the one small thing I CAN do is to ONLY take in a neglected/abused or unwanted bird from now on and try to encourage others to do the same. People that buy birds from breeders or pet stores, aren't "bad" people, they are people just like me, that don't realize how many birds are lanquishing away in rescues, and shelter. I had no idea how serious the problem was when I was buying my birds. So how can I sit and judge others for doing the same thing I was doing?
All I can do is try to educate and inform these people the same way others educated me.

Thats why I'm here at mytoos.

#102304 - 12/17/03 10:41 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I love my birds very much, and I love my dogs very much. The difference lies here. My dogs have an excellent life with me. I provide everything they could possibly need, including the pack situation that is instinctual. They eat when food is needed, they run and run and run whenever they want, day or night in our large back yard, heck I even sleep with them, because that's what canines do in a pack situation. They want for little, and I would never consider finding them a new home.
Here's the difference. My cockatoos (u2 and m2) are like children to me. I cook for them more often then I cook for myself. I've built them indoor cages that are only 6.5ft. x 4.5ft x 6.5ft, and I understand that that is no where large enough. I can spend as much time as I want trying to justify them being in my care - "Oh, well they live a lot better than others" - and while that may help me sleep a little better at night, I know that what I do for them is nothing like mother nature can do for them. As fond as I am of them, and as much as I love them, if a better situation would come along for them, I would give them up in a heart beat. That is NOT to say I would give them up because I don't love them, it is truly because I do love them, that if I knew that they could have better, I would do it for them. If someone told me there was an inclosed aviary out there that covered acres upon acres, all fenced in, where they could fly freely, and eat as they pleased, and be well cared for in a FLOCK situation, I would be one of the first people lined up outside the door to get in. I know that as a captive prisoner, my birds are better off than many others out there, but I also know that I'm not the best thing for them. And once again, if something BETTER than their current situation came along, I would give them that instead. That is in fact the only reason I ever rescued these two. I read this whole site in and out three times and I knew... I KNEW I shouldn't have adopted these two, but compared to what life was like before, living with me has been much better for the two of them.

#102305 - 12/18/03 03:55 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Well Jerry what a huge can of worms. I really did enjoy seeing everyones varied opinions although I am exhausted from reading all of this. Still have the flu. Getting back to your original question should the large Toos be bred and sold (even if that means large chains like Petco Petsmart etc.) Definitely not but we cant do a dam* thing about it. The fact is there is money to be made and the food chain here is huge. From breeder to sale to sale again and cages, supplies, toys, vets, and everything else I am leaving out. The whole conundrum back and forth about whether they are happy as captives is just a moot point, isn't it?

The members of this forum are doing the best that they can and are far above the average man on the street with a captive bird.

I know you stated that you didn't want anyone to feel guilty but the result seems to be a lot of guilt showing up here.

I don't understand any of it. Speaking only for myself, I am proud of having adopted Gracie and I think she is as happy as she KNOWS. She has no idea about life in the wild. And she never will. I think that every member here who has spent the hours on education and sharing ideas and trying to provide the best home they can should feel proud also. Enough said from me.........

#102306 - 12/18/03 06:50 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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This is the first time I have posted here, so take this as you will, but I have a U2 that was full flight for photos and he flew into the screen and both he and the screen landed on the deck. He flew into a tree and remained on my property for 5 days then flew away. On the tenth day missing, he was found sitting on the side of a main road in another town. The elderly walkers put him in a duffle bag and brought him to the vets. An employee ended up taking the bird home and I was not notified of his being found for over a month and a half. I went to identify him and found him to be in a good home, so I let them keep him. But when I left, the bird started screaming and wouldn't stop. 2 days later they called me to come get him. Now, the bird may have decided that he wanted to be with me over them, but I guarantee you that the only reason he came out of the trees and allowed himself to be recaptured was hunger. Anyone who thinks this bird came down because he had some burning desire to be in a cage in my home instead of free, is deluding themselves. Hunger and hunger alone brought him down. The only decision he made was whether he wanted to live in thier house or mine. So, I don't see the 'Set them free' theory as applicable when dealing with birds. But of course, this is only my opinion and may differ from your opinion.

#102307 - 12/18/03 10:17 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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I have to say that I am 100% against the breeding and selling of these birds.

However, I do agree with what Paul H said. Most of our birds have been bred in captivity, have never been free and never could survive if set free in their natural habitat. We have to do the best we can for our birds in our care. It takes a hell of a lot of work, sacrifice and compromise to give our too's the life they deserve...the life that was chosen for them by those who breed or those who have captured them in the wild.

It's sad to say that there may never be laws in the future to limit or stop the breeding of these creatures. There also may never be laws limiting the ownership of cockatoos. The laws that will be written would most likely touch upon issues such as not selling unweaned babies, having proper cage sizes etc. The basics so to speak. It IS disappointing no doubt, but it's a long, frustrating haul if real changes and protections were actually passed. Who really knows. I'm working on legislation now for NH, similar to CA's recently passed law and I highly doubt it will pass. Hours upon hours of work can go into something like this and it can be shut down in matter of minutes when it comes down to vote.

All that can be done now is to educate people, not support the breeders with buying birds or supplies from them and help the reputable rescues out there.

Would my two umbrellas be happier if born into the wild? Of course they would be!! It's where they were meant to be. Do I know if they are happy? I sure hope so. I try and provide everything I can for them, from allowing them to be free-flighted, having large outdoor flights, very little in cage time, toys, attention...they have it. IF any of mine were wild caught...I would feel extremely guilty that they were plucked out of the wild and put into a cage. But I have to say that I know my birds ARE happy because of the life I provide for them.

Just my 2 cents.

#102308 - 12/19/03 02:21 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Patrick M said:

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Most of these Too's don't know anything of freedom and being "wild".
WHOA!!!!! THIS is exactly the mentality that we HAVE to convince people is wrong wrong wrong!!

Do you think just because a bird has never flown that he doesn't long for it?? Doesn't have a clue as to what its about?? Couldnt fly??

Do you think just because a bird has never met it's mate that he doesn't long for one??? Do you think because a bird has never bred that he doesnt want to?? Doesnt know HOW to??

Do you not understand that these are WILD animals born with DNA that forces them to ATTEMPT to do exactly what nature fully intended.. even though they've never been in the wild??

Just because they HAVENT done these things doesn't mean that they have no idea of what they're MISSING!!! They DO know! And that's EXACTLY why they have so much problem with captivity!!

Until you all understand this very simple logic.. we'll never get anywhere. eek

#102309 - 12/19/03 04:20 AM Re: Should they be sold?  

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Let me ask you this Jerry: If it's so simple, then how come some of us aren't understanding?

Yes, we know that birds know how to do it even though they haven't been raised in the wild or given enough space to attempt it. It's instinct, they're born to do it. Just like humans are born to walk, talk, and use their bodies and knowledge.

We're trying to understand. And we're doing are best to help birds that would in some cases have no chance at all. I know I (and probably a lot of other people on this board) take care of my baby very well. She is outside and active, and talks with other wild birds. She does outdoor activities with me like mountain biking and running. Her wings spread and she is having the greatest moment ever. We give them what we can, and that's all we can do.

We KNOW that they should be in the wild and free, able to live on their own and let their spirits soar. WE KNOW WE KNOW! Yes, we read what you say. But HOW are we supposed to do that? Talking about it isn't working is it? The trees are still cut down and birds are still being illigally imported, so now what?

#102310 - 12/19/03 05:12 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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*Sigh

Who do you think you are... or who do you think mankind is... that we can "save" these animals from themselves or us? A thousand people with a thousand of these birds in cages aren't "saving" jack. The only way to offer a real life (in this doomsday scenario) is very large aviaries around the world.

This is one case that we can only do MORE harm than good trying. The world is still a large place and there's still tons of forrest. The birds aren't nearly in as much danger as you think they are and probably wont be for awhile. But I'll tell you one more time and I wont argue with you any more: When the Forrest's are all gone.. and the animals are all dying in cages... then you and I can kiss our sorry asses GOODBYE anyway! :rolleyes:

#102311 - 12/19/03 06:44 AM Re: Should they be sold?  

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For one, when did I say that we could save them at all? I was suggesting you tell us what we're doing wrong and tell us how we can help these birds. I don't know why you preach what you do, then not give any ideas on helping anything at all. You say "this and that need to be done." Yeah well how? I don't see you telling us. Build aviaries? Or maybe since the forests are so great and dandy we should teach them to be wild and set them free since we're doing such a damn bad job?

I also never said something along the lines of "We'll surely live if all the animals are in cages." I don't know what you're assuming, but please stop.

I'm here to try and think of an idea regardless of how stupid it is, and regardless of if you dissapprove of what I'm saying. If you don't like it, tell me exactly what I'm saying and what you think. That's make things easier wouldn't it?

#102312 - 12/19/03 08:01 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Personally, I think this is going off topic. The discussion is supposed to be about "should they be bred and sold". Some how it has turned into what people think their individual birds feel in captivity. Our birds are ALREADY in captivity so the only thing we can do for them is make the best of a bad situation for them. The unborn 'Toos are the topic ... more or less should human kind continue to breed these birds for their own selfish enjoyment regardless of how so many birds self destruct. WE are not keeping the species alive by having 1 or 2 birds in our home. I THINK Jerry was more focused on the opinions of how you all feel about further breeding of these birds; not what is already in population.

So, to take this back to topic ....IMHO, I do not think these birds should be subjected to further breeding and if mankind is so selfish as to wipe out the forests these birds live in and they go extinct than so be it. IMHO, none of our birds are true Moluccan cockatoos any how .... we have turned them into a circus show of eating cooked foods, doing parlor tricks, "talking", etc.. We have an image of what the birds were meant to be but their souls are tarnished. Hell, a lot of our birds don't even realize they ARE birds .... they are just a confused fluff of feathers who shun other birds, and attempt to bred w/ people, dogs, cats, etc. I do not think a true M2 would swoop out of a tree and court a human. We own the shells .... and the forests will always, until all the trees are gone, own the TRUE cockatoos. And that my friends is MHO.

#102313 - 12/19/03 03:11 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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M2mom is right. Go back and read the intial posting by Jerry...I had to also. I also went off topic a bit! Opps!!

I stand by what I said in my post though. It is very, very difficult to get laws passed to protect these birds. Baby steps can be made by writing legislation. The hardest part is to "sell" it to one of your state senators. If you look at the law that was passed in CA, protecting unweaned baby parrots, you will notice that this is at least a step in the right direction. There are tons of loop holes in the law however. No way has it gone far enough into the issue, but passing laws is a very difficult and arduous process.

IF anything is going to stop the breeding of these birds, its the laws. But with laws comes policing and enforcing. There are a hell of a lot of issues here if real changes are going to be made.

#102314 - 12/19/03 03:52 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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M2mom said:

Quote:
Hell, a lot of our birds don't even realize they ARE birds .... they are just a confused fluff of feathers who shun other birds, and attempt to bred w/ people, dogs, cats, etc. I do not think a true M2 would swoop out of a tree and court a human. We own the shells .... and the forests will always, until all the trees are gone, own the TRUE cockatoos.
And THAT's the bottom line!

#102315 - 12/19/03 05:42 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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"We have an image of what the birds were meant to be but their souls are tarnished"

Sunny, that is the best written and "back-to-the-basics" post I've read on this list so far.

#102316 - 12/19/03 06:49 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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M2Mom, Heather I agree with you both completely! Now Jerry & everyone else what can we do about this? I havent got a clue.

#102317 - 12/19/03 08:06 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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The answer isn't simple at best and maybe not even possible at worst. Lets keep in mind that like almost everything else in this world... all you have to do is "follow the money". Where's there's a demand, there's a supply... no matter HOW illegal or immoral. We HAVE to stop the demand! Is that possible? Probably not. It's a big world with millions of people who will always want things.

But we sure as hell can CURTAIL the demand! Mytoos just by itself has already saved thousands of birds alone. And the foreign versions of Mytoos and other websites like it are saving thousands more. The more people know how difficult it is to care for these birds, the less demand there will be. Naturally, with all the Pro parrot websites / pet stores / breeders out there who make money by convincing people to buy these birds and all the food/cages/toys etc that goes along with them... we have a long way to go in educating the public.

But I tell you what's NOT going to help: Sympathy buys from petshops and others. For you to purchase a bird just because you feel sorry for it wont help a thing.. as a matter of fact you're extending the problem. These birds owners should be turned into the authorities, not paid extortion money.

In all the "3rd World" countries where many of these birds live, future laws may or may not help. What would help are organizations purchasing properly there and protecting it like we do our National Forests. Many nations already have these area established, but dont have the means to enforce the protection status.
They wouldn't NEED conservation officers IF there wasn't a demand! So we come full circle in our scenario.

If the worlds jungles disappear, so will we. Personally I think a LOT of terrible things are going to happen over the next 50 years not only concerning this issue... but issues of mankind in general. So at this point I suggest that we do what we CAN do right now... and that's to lessen the demand for these birds in any way we can.

#102318 - 12/19/03 10:39 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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We need to look at third world countries in a widely perspective to deal with poaching. Many of the people are broke. They don't have adquate food, clothing, or water. And they certainly don't have the interent to look up MyToos on. Think about it: If you couldn't feed your children (or yourself) and someone offered you money, even if it was just a pentence, to capture a parrot, would say no? Look at what many people have to choose from: thievry, drugs, prostitution, etc.
We need to intervene not only by helping protect the forests, but by helping the people as well.

On the orginal topic:
Birds should not be bought and sold like stuffed animals. People need to know that, and perhaps they best way to do that would be to get mass media exposure. People always hear of dog abuse but never of bird abuse; what the rescues and others need to get that message across may be an organization like the Humane Society. We need some strong, central voice.

#102319 - 12/20/03 12:10 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
We need to intervene not only by helping protect the forests, but by helping the people as well.
OK... I'm going to go a little off topic here, but it's not our responsibility to make sure these poor people have enough money that they don't have to poach wild birds. That's extortion. America has been the most generous nation in the entire world when it comes to helping people and right now we're at the most dangerous time of our lives. All of our industry and manufacturing has or is moving overseas. Even our high tech jobs are now leaving. What will future Americans do to make a living to PAY these people to keep from stealing birds from the wild?

It's not about giving people money... it's about stopping the demand for these birds so that those poor people wont have any incentive to steal them.

#102320 - 12/20/03 01:13 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Back to the original post, I don't think that they should be sold or bred or traded. I agree that the demand should be diminished, and I really think that if there were laws in place to prevent people from breeding them, demand would seriously come to a stand still. Why trade or buy them if you can't breed them? Then it would be left to those still caring for them. Perhaps this would create problems and maybe even turn cockatoos into a rare commodity. We all know how precious diamonds are, and the desire to own them. It's just human tendency to want things like that, so if we say 'that's it, no more. No more breeding, what's here is here', it could potentially make people want them even more. I wholeheartedly agree with you Jerry, and I understand what you are saying. Hopefully enough people will come to see it that way, and perhaps things will change.

#102321 - 12/20/03 03:37 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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OK, if you make it illegal to breed them, then smuggling will sky-rocket and be way more profitable. Profitable enough to make some poachers take more risks than they already do. Just thought that might be something to consider.

#102322 - 12/20/03 04:46 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Jerry,
I wasn't saying we need to pour millions of dollars into that, but you have to realize most of these people are in situations where the fate of a parrot is the last thing they have to worry about. What we need to do is educate people that want to buy birds and crack down on the people at the top of poaching chain.

#102323 - 12/20/03 04:52 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Maybe we could help fund sanctuaries and hire the people that live in these countries to run them, giving them incentive AND an income..to make sure these birds are safe instead of smuggled out? I know..its a long shot, just thinking out loud.

#102324 - 12/20/03 05:21 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
OK, if you make it illegal to breed them, then smuggling will sky-rocket and be way more profitable. Profitable enough to make some poachers take more risks than they already do. Just thought that might be something to consider.
I never said anything about making it illegal to breed them. I said make it illegal to OWN them without a license (or something to that effect).

More importantly, make it known throughout the world that these birds arent something you WANT to own in the first place.

However, captive breeding does nothing to conserve parrots in their native habitats and, in fact, has contributed to the oversupply of most parrots in captivity.

Avicultural organizations often ignore the problem of unwanted parrots in captivity and oppose regulations meant to protect these parrots. Most aviculturists portray animal welfare groups unfairly and use distortions of
fact to scare the average bird guardian by equating protection for captive birds with "taking my birds out of my home." The policies and practices of some avicultural groups seem more synonymous with propaganda and profit than the birds' best interests.

#102325 - 12/20/03 02:09 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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There are a couple of super good points that have been made here. First, in countries where people are poverty stricken people will sell these birds to feed their families as long as there are buyers. Second, a demand has been created and continues to grow. The thing is, it is "cool" to own a bird. If we can somehow make it not so cool, and even dangerous, then we might get somewhere and this means lots of education to the communities, but that will be difficult. When traveling last month, one of my stops was in a small scandinavian country/island of 280K people. I was downtown and saw a petstore and decided to go in. They had two Macaws in a cage there. When I asked what the pet-bird population was like in that country, the answer was that there were a couple of Toos, and a few Macaws, and they were expecting more since the demand was growing. They thought this was great and were just extatic. My point is, people do not understand what we are talking about most of the time, so we have to appeal to them on a different level. Mona's point was great, because it would involve the responsitility and pride of keeping these birds in their natural habitat for the locals, but again, would require education on that end too. Most people see these birds as "just another animal", and don't understand our passion for them (as has been seen by the responses to our questioning the pro-breeder stance). I guess here the education piece needs to be focused on peoples' wellbeing, not the birds', because frankly most people just don't care. I believe the shock value of bite-pictures would be a start. It would have to be a massive effort, and can you imagine what the breeder response would be? Just some thoughts.

#102326 - 12/23/03 02:08 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
There are a couple of super good points that have been made here. First, in countries where people are poverty stricken people will sell these birds to feed their families as long as there are buyers.
I agree. Its only those who are not sticken(us) who have the pleasure of worrying about animals feelings. It's part of the privilege of wealth. In the Amazon if you have to chop down forests, hunt animals, sell animals to live then itís your damn right to. We did it in America. We logged our forests and hunted wildlife and sent plenty animals to extinction. The industrial revolution that brought most of the western world into modern civilization, polluted and abused so much of the environment. Let the struggling nations of the world use their resources as we have ours. Hypothetically, if a country ever thinks of cockatoos as a food source, it's their business. I would care less if they farmed them for food just like we farm pigs and cattle. If they think of them as a commodity such as gold, it's their right to mine them. Intelligence as a basis of an animal's worth is all relative to the culture's needs. We live in an oftentimes cold and lonely society. One based on the media and consumerism. Most of our living and food needs have been met... so we have the need(privilege) to worry about whether Poly should eat seeds or pellets..

So the solutions isn't in the native lands of these creatures. I think the solution lies directly with the sellers in this country. The impulse buy(and any bird purchase) either happens at the pet store or from the breeder. It's at these points were an uneducated person gets his/her first knowledge about parrots. If the sellers tells them cockatoos make lousy pets then the buyer won't buy. Perhaps there should be law to warranty a Too for 7 years. The seller has to buy back a cockatoo from the buyer if it doesnít work out after 7 years. How many people will sell toos after a law like this?

Or how about a law that would track the number of birds in shelters. If the leg tag records suggests that x amount of birds from this breeder or store ended up in rescues then that store or breeder will no longer be able to sell birds.

Or perhaps rather than a licence to own a cockatoo, you must have a licence to breed and sell a cockatoo. Part of that license requires having to follow certain ethical guidlines about how and to who you sell the bird to.

#102327 - 12/24/03 10:12 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Katy Offline
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Iron, i'd have to disagree with some of what you said.

True, Americans did destroy much of our own country, and send animals to extinction, but at least the majority of them have become more consious as to the world around them, and many people are trying to help preserve more of whats left of our natural resources. As far as cockatoos as a food source goes, I shudder to think. Images of chickens and turkeys being grabbed 4 at a time by their legs and being shoved into crates, or hung by their ankles and being slaughtered on an assembly line is enough to make me cry--I cannot even fathom this happening to our beautiful 'toos.

If impulse buyers take cockatoo ownership with a grain of salt now, just imagine what it would be like if people started farming them. Owning a cockatoo, to many people, would be no different than owning a chicken; at least, thats the impression they would get. Luckily, farming of large parrots could almost never happen anyway. Just imagine what would happen if we penned up 2000 cockatoos in one area, like chickens! After plucking and mutilating themselves, I reckon over half of them would eventualy kill eachother.

While "Intelligence as a basis of an animal's worth is all relative to the culture's needs", that dosen't change the reality of things, and cockatoos are far too emotional and demanding to ever be treated like cattle. Personaly, I don't even think cattle deserve to be 'treated like cattle' (it's sad when thats the only analogy you can come up with), but I don't think any cockatoo owner could bare the thought of a bird, no more inferior than the one that they care for, being treated like that. Anyway, just thought i'd throw that out there smile

Katy

#102328 - 12/26/03 03:42 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I know you said if I agree, I need not post, but I want to remind all of the folks here, that my home if brimming at 10 flock members. Nine of them have been previously owned. Of that 9, 6 are cockatoos + my original U2 that has only been homed here during his life.

The flock (Conures/Cockatoos/Amazon) have all been given up for the usual garden variety reasons.

What we know, that the general public does not know is that these birds require so much attention. That they are so intellegent. That they need to be free, not caged. That they don't belong in houses, they belong in the wild.

Think people - just because your cockatoo isn't displaying inappropriate behavior - doesn't mean squat. The percentage of birds with problems way outweighs the few that are doing well.

Again, my house is full of throw away birds - and they weren't thrown away because they were the perfect pets.

#102329 - 12/26/03 05:34 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Gloria Offline
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Hi guys, I'm delurking for a bit since this thread is quite interesting. I split my orginal post into two parts. Part one deals with my response to Mona's post. Part two is about my thoughts on how parrots (and other exotics) should be licenced.

Mona, in fact you *can* sell a native bird of prey if it is captive bred and you and the buyer have proper permits. In the US the law is a bit foggy about captive-bred vs. wild caught birds of prey. Technically all native birds are 'owned' by the US federal government, but the presence of F2 and F3 (or more) generation captive-bred native birds confuses the issue.

Harris Hawks (the 'African Grey' of the hawk world) typically go for $300 to $500 US. Captive bred peregrine falcons in the US and Canada go for $1000 to $2500 US depending on genetics, race, sex, age, and rearing method. (Handraised birds are usually considered not as good a parent raised birds that were allowed to fledge "wild hacked" outdoors). More expensive birds such as the large eagles (black, tawny, golden, etc.) may go for much more.

The licensing issue is a very interesting one. If we are going to use US falconry laws as a example we need to keep a few things in mind. I am only going to use US falconry laws because other countries have different rules. The UK, for example, does not require licenses for captive bred closed-banded raptors.

Falconers wrote the laws themselves. They had to. Until the '70s most raptors were considered pests and it was legal to do with them what you liked. Many thousands were shot or poisoned, and some even had bounties on their heads. There are some truly horrible pictures of the carnage at Hawk Mountain where over 200 migrating hawks were shot in one day. Nobody cared if a few eccentrics kept a few hawks as pets. No doubt many hawks died due to substandard care, but many of the older falconers got their start with these 'pet' birds. In the '70s the environmental revolution occurred, and suddenly it was illegal to do *anything* to a native bird (other then game species). The falconers formed a club (North American Falconry Association, or NAFA) as well as numerous state clubs, through which they pushed through legislation allowing them to keep most native raptors (including owls, but excluding Bald Eagles, vultures, and kites. Not that anyone would want to fly a vulture or kite for falconry <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" /> ) BTW, Canada falconry laws are pretty much the same, save they do allow Bald Eagles. Today NAFA is the largest falconry club in the world with almost 10,000 members.

To be a falconer in the US requires both a state and federal license. If the state laws are not as strict as federal laws then it is not legal to practice falconry in that state. Federal licenses are required for native birds of prey, but only state is required for non-native. There are three ranks of falconer, Apprentice, General, and Master.

Apprentices must have a Mentor who is either a General or Master falconer supervise them for at least two years. The Apprentice must pass a very hard falconry test with an 80% or more. The test covers everything from trapping, training, identification, diseases and how to treat them, restraint, etc. They also must have their facilities inspected. Under federal law an Apprentice falconer is allowed one bird at a time, and one replacement bird a year if the first one escapes. They are only allowed to keep a Redtail Hawk, American Kestrel Falcon, or a Redshouldered Hawk (and in Alaska they are allowed a Northern Goshawk. Lucky Alaskans :p ). For this reason falconry will always be illegal in Hawaii. State laws are often different, and kestrels are considered poor beginner birds due to their small size and penchant for insects. The bird must be a wild caught bird on its first migration so that if it escapes it can feed itself. The Mentor *must* certify that the Apprentice is capable of being a good falconer before the Apprentice can become a General falconer. Mentors are not allowed more then three Apprentices at any one time. Apprentices are NOT allowed captive bred or wild eyas (taken from nest) birds. Only wild caught birds captured on their first migration.

General falconers are allowed two birds, and two replacements. They can have captive bred birds, or wild caught birds taken from nests (but there is a limit to the number so taken from any nest, at least two must be left IIRC). General class falconers may have any Threatened species, but no Endangered. (I believe that they can have peregrines now). They may not have any eagle. There are state rules concerning how many may be taken from the wild per year (depending on species), so it is not a free-for-all! In Oregon generally only 3 or 4 Northern Goshawks are allowed to be captured (although an unlimited number may be bred of course).

After five years as a General Falconer you become a Master Falconer (I think you just have to fill out a form). Master Falconers are allowed to have three falconry birds, and three replacement birds a year. Note: more birds can be kept by both General and Master falconers under breeding licenses, and some falconers get around the bird limit by getting a rehab or education license. A Master class falconer can fly native raptors listed as Endangered, as long as it was captive bred.

They may fly non-native eagles without any special licenses beyond the normal falconry ones. In the US the only native eagle that can be flown is a Golden Eagle. In order to fly a Golden you must either have at least two years experience flying a non-native eagle, or Apprentice to another Master falconer who flies a Golden for two years. It depends on the state, and not all states allow falconers to fly a Golden. The only Golden eagles allowed to be flown are either unreleasable imprints (who generally are screamers and/or highly aggressive. If you think a M2 is loud you have never heard a Golden Eagle with a screaming problem. I have. *shudders*), captive bred, or 'predation' birds whose only alternative is to be destroyed for killing livestock. In some states I believe it is legal to rescue a potential siblicide victim (the oldest baby golden often kills its sibling). Eagles are considered extremely high maintenance birds, and the Golden is the M2 of the raptor world.

#102330 - 12/26/03 05:44 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Gloria Offline
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This is Part Two of my post, and it concerns my thoughts about Parrot Ownership.

I bring the Golden up because I think that is the position the Large Cockatoos are in. Do I think people should be allowed to breed, sell, and own them? Yes I do. But I also think that those doing so should be for the most dedicated portion of the bird owning populace. In order to fly a Golden Eagle a falconer must have *at least* seven years experience training and flying birds of prey. They also must *prove* they can handle an eagle.

If I were writing the laws for parrot ownership I would divide the birds and owners into three classes.

Level One would be Cockatiels and Budgies as they are considered legally Domesticated by CITIES and the US government. (biologically Domestication occurs between the F20 and F40 generation, and there are some very distinct genetic markers such as pied coloration). Currently they are the only two parrot species considered Domesticated. I'm not certain we could or should require licenses for fully Domesticated parrots unless we also require it for all other domesticated animals (a dog license is to ensure that it has been vaccinated against rabies, not to insure the humane care of the dog). The three common species of Lovebirds could be included as well as Level One birds. This level would have the minimum required rules and regs. I would not consider this analogous to the Apprentice Falconer, simply because I strongly dislike the idea of using these little birds as 'practice' birds, to be thrown away or forgotten when their owner moves on to larger, more challenging species.

Level Two would be most small to medium sized species of parrots. All Level Two 'Parroters' wink have to have a two year probation period with a Mentor. Like the Apprentice Falconer they have to pass an extremely in-depth test with 80% or more, and they have to have their facility inspected. The Mentor must be a Level Two Parroter with at least five years off probation and must have no more the five probationers.

I dislike 'practice birds' (for falconry it is ok to release a bird you don't want, as long as it can survive on it's own, isn't imprinted, and is native. This is not an option with parrots). However I feel large parrots (not just large cockatoos, although they are more extreme) require that extra proof of dedication from their owner. After three years off probation a Level Two parroter can apprentice herself to a Level Three Parroter for a Level Three Parrot. A Level Three Parrot would be any large Macaw or Cockatoo, but it would also include such birds as the Golden Conures and Aquamarine Lory, parrots which currently require special licensing to have (these birds might have an extra level of licensing as well, I havenít really worked it out yet).

Iím not certain if M2s would need extra licensing like the Golden Eagle gets under the Falconry system. I think by the time most Parroters got far enough to own one they would A) know what it takes, and B) have the skills necessary to care for them properly. Or C) decide that an M2 or U2 Is Not For Them. There would be no such thing as an impulse purchase of a Level Two or Level Three parrot.

Realistically, of course, I don't think any of this is likely to happen. It won't happen until an majority (or at least a sizable minority) of the bird owning population in the US acknowledges the problem and acts on it. With the falconers it was easier, many had already been campianing for the ending of the shooting of raptors, and it was an easy exention for them to campian for fair laws governing the humane keeping of raptors.

#260753 - 11/05/17 11:29 PM Re: Should they be sold? [Re: Jerry]  
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No these birds should not be kept as pets. Most people in this country are functionality illiterate, so why should we expect the complex care of cockatoos to be understandable to them. Certain animals should not be kept as pets. What's a pet? I cannot think of a more horrible torture than being kept in a small cage with no interaction for 30 years..


Last edited by BE2Cassie; 11/06/17 11:11 AM. Reason: Political, racial views not tolerated here.
#260754 - 11/06/17 11:12 AM Re: Should they be sold? [Re: Jerry]  
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This thread is from 2003.


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