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#102310 - 12/19/03 05:12 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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*Sigh

Who do you think you are... or who do you think mankind is... that we can "save" these animals from themselves or us? A thousand people with a thousand of these birds in cages aren't "saving" jack. The only way to offer a real life (in this doomsday scenario) is very large aviaries around the world.

This is one case that we can only do MORE harm than good trying. The world is still a large place and there's still tons of forrest. The birds aren't nearly in as much danger as you think they are and probably wont be for awhile. But I'll tell you one more time and I wont argue with you any more: When the Forrest's are all gone.. and the animals are all dying in cages... then you and I can kiss our sorry asses GOODBYE anyway! :rolleyes:

#102311 - 12/19/03 06:44 AM Re: Should they be sold?  

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For one, when did I say that we could save them at all? I was suggesting you tell us what we're doing wrong and tell us how we can help these birds. I don't know why you preach what you do, then not give any ideas on helping anything at all. You say "this and that need to be done." Yeah well how? I don't see you telling us. Build aviaries? Or maybe since the forests are so great and dandy we should teach them to be wild and set them free since we're doing such a damn bad job?

I also never said something along the lines of "We'll surely live if all the animals are in cages." I don't know what you're assuming, but please stop.

I'm here to try and think of an idea regardless of how stupid it is, and regardless of if you dissapprove of what I'm saying. If you don't like it, tell me exactly what I'm saying and what you think. That's make things easier wouldn't it?

#102312 - 12/19/03 08:01 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Personally, I think this is going off topic. The discussion is supposed to be about "should they be bred and sold". Some how it has turned into what people think their individual birds feel in captivity. Our birds are ALREADY in captivity so the only thing we can do for them is make the best of a bad situation for them. The unborn 'Toos are the topic ... more or less should human kind continue to breed these birds for their own selfish enjoyment regardless of how so many birds self destruct. WE are not keeping the species alive by having 1 or 2 birds in our home. I THINK Jerry was more focused on the opinions of how you all feel about further breeding of these birds; not what is already in population.

So, to take this back to topic ....IMHO, I do not think these birds should be subjected to further breeding and if mankind is so selfish as to wipe out the forests these birds live in and they go extinct than so be it. IMHO, none of our birds are true Moluccan cockatoos any how .... we have turned them into a circus show of eating cooked foods, doing parlor tricks, "talking", etc.. We have an image of what the birds were meant to be but their souls are tarnished. Hell, a lot of our birds don't even realize they ARE birds .... they are just a confused fluff of feathers who shun other birds, and attempt to bred w/ people, dogs, cats, etc. I do not think a true M2 would swoop out of a tree and court a human. We own the shells .... and the forests will always, until all the trees are gone, own the TRUE cockatoos. And that my friends is MHO.

#102313 - 12/19/03 03:11 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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M2mom is right. Go back and read the intial posting by Jerry...I had to also. I also went off topic a bit! Opps!!

I stand by what I said in my post though. It is very, very difficult to get laws passed to protect these birds. Baby steps can be made by writing legislation. The hardest part is to "sell" it to one of your state senators. If you look at the law that was passed in CA, protecting unweaned baby parrots, you will notice that this is at least a step in the right direction. There are tons of loop holes in the law however. No way has it gone far enough into the issue, but passing laws is a very difficult and arduous process.

IF anything is going to stop the breeding of these birds, its the laws. But with laws comes policing and enforcing. There are a hell of a lot of issues here if real changes are going to be made.

#102314 - 12/19/03 03:52 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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M2mom said:

Quote:
Hell, a lot of our birds don't even realize they ARE birds .... they are just a confused fluff of feathers who shun other birds, and attempt to bred w/ people, dogs, cats, etc. I do not think a true M2 would swoop out of a tree and court a human. We own the shells .... and the forests will always, until all the trees are gone, own the TRUE cockatoos.
And THAT's the bottom line!

#102315 - 12/19/03 05:42 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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"We have an image of what the birds were meant to be but their souls are tarnished"

Sunny, that is the best written and "back-to-the-basics" post I've read on this list so far.

#102316 - 12/19/03 06:49 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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M2Mom, Heather I agree with you both completely! Now Jerry & everyone else what can we do about this? I havent got a clue.

#102317 - 12/19/03 08:06 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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The answer isn't simple at best and maybe not even possible at worst. Lets keep in mind that like almost everything else in this world... all you have to do is "follow the money". Where's there's a demand, there's a supply... no matter HOW illegal or immoral. We HAVE to stop the demand! Is that possible? Probably not. It's a big world with millions of people who will always want things.

But we sure as hell can CURTAIL the demand! Mytoos just by itself has already saved thousands of birds alone. And the foreign versions of Mytoos and other websites like it are saving thousands more. The more people know how difficult it is to care for these birds, the less demand there will be. Naturally, with all the Pro parrot websites / pet stores / breeders out there who make money by convincing people to buy these birds and all the food/cages/toys etc that goes along with them... we have a long way to go in educating the public.

But I tell you what's NOT going to help: Sympathy buys from petshops and others. For you to purchase a bird just because you feel sorry for it wont help a thing.. as a matter of fact you're extending the problem. These birds owners should be turned into the authorities, not paid extortion money.

In all the "3rd World" countries where many of these birds live, future laws may or may not help. What would help are organizations purchasing properly there and protecting it like we do our National Forests. Many nations already have these area established, but dont have the means to enforce the protection status.
They wouldn't NEED conservation officers IF there wasn't a demand! So we come full circle in our scenario.

If the worlds jungles disappear, so will we. Personally I think a LOT of terrible things are going to happen over the next 50 years not only concerning this issue... but issues of mankind in general. So at this point I suggest that we do what we CAN do right now... and that's to lessen the demand for these birds in any way we can.

#102318 - 12/19/03 10:39 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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We need to look at third world countries in a widely perspective to deal with poaching. Many of the people are broke. They don't have adquate food, clothing, or water. And they certainly don't have the interent to look up MyToos on. Think about it: If you couldn't feed your children (or yourself) and someone offered you money, even if it was just a pentence, to capture a parrot, would say no? Look at what many people have to choose from: thievry, drugs, prostitution, etc.
We need to intervene not only by helping protect the forests, but by helping the people as well.

On the orginal topic:
Birds should not be bought and sold like stuffed animals. People need to know that, and perhaps they best way to do that would be to get mass media exposure. People always hear of dog abuse but never of bird abuse; what the rescues and others need to get that message across may be an organization like the Humane Society. We need some strong, central voice.

#102319 - 12/20/03 12:10 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
We need to intervene not only by helping protect the forests, but by helping the people as well.
OK... I'm going to go a little off topic here, but it's not our responsibility to make sure these poor people have enough money that they don't have to poach wild birds. That's extortion. America has been the most generous nation in the entire world when it comes to helping people and right now we're at the most dangerous time of our lives. All of our industry and manufacturing has or is moving overseas. Even our high tech jobs are now leaving. What will future Americans do to make a living to PAY these people to keep from stealing birds from the wild?

It's not about giving people money... it's about stopping the demand for these birds so that those poor people wont have any incentive to steal them.

#102320 - 12/20/03 01:13 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Back to the original post, I don't think that they should be sold or bred or traded. I agree that the demand should be diminished, and I really think that if there were laws in place to prevent people from breeding them, demand would seriously come to a stand still. Why trade or buy them if you can't breed them? Then it would be left to those still caring for them. Perhaps this would create problems and maybe even turn cockatoos into a rare commodity. We all know how precious diamonds are, and the desire to own them. It's just human tendency to want things like that, so if we say 'that's it, no more. No more breeding, what's here is here', it could potentially make people want them even more. I wholeheartedly agree with you Jerry, and I understand what you are saying. Hopefully enough people will come to see it that way, and perhaps things will change.

#102321 - 12/20/03 03:37 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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OK, if you make it illegal to breed them, then smuggling will sky-rocket and be way more profitable. Profitable enough to make some poachers take more risks than they already do. Just thought that might be something to consider.

#102322 - 12/20/03 04:46 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Jerry,
I wasn't saying we need to pour millions of dollars into that, but you have to realize most of these people are in situations where the fate of a parrot is the last thing they have to worry about. What we need to do is educate people that want to buy birds and crack down on the people at the top of poaching chain.

#102323 - 12/20/03 04:52 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Maybe we could help fund sanctuaries and hire the people that live in these countries to run them, giving them incentive AND an income..to make sure these birds are safe instead of smuggled out? I know..its a long shot, just thinking out loud.

#102324 - 12/20/03 05:21 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
OK, if you make it illegal to breed them, then smuggling will sky-rocket and be way more profitable. Profitable enough to make some poachers take more risks than they already do. Just thought that might be something to consider.
I never said anything about making it illegal to breed them. I said make it illegal to OWN them without a license (or something to that effect).

More importantly, make it known throughout the world that these birds arent something you WANT to own in the first place.

However, captive breeding does nothing to conserve parrots in their native habitats and, in fact, has contributed to the oversupply of most parrots in captivity.

Avicultural organizations often ignore the problem of unwanted parrots in captivity and oppose regulations meant to protect these parrots. Most aviculturists portray animal welfare groups unfairly and use distortions of
fact to scare the average bird guardian by equating protection for captive birds with "taking my birds out of my home." The policies and practices of some avicultural groups seem more synonymous with propaganda and profit than the birds' best interests.

#102325 - 12/20/03 02:09 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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There are a couple of super good points that have been made here. First, in countries where people are poverty stricken people will sell these birds to feed their families as long as there are buyers. Second, a demand has been created and continues to grow. The thing is, it is "cool" to own a bird. If we can somehow make it not so cool, and even dangerous, then we might get somewhere and this means lots of education to the communities, but that will be difficult. When traveling last month, one of my stops was in a small scandinavian country/island of 280K people. I was downtown and saw a petstore and decided to go in. They had two Macaws in a cage there. When I asked what the pet-bird population was like in that country, the answer was that there were a couple of Toos, and a few Macaws, and they were expecting more since the demand was growing. They thought this was great and were just extatic. My point is, people do not understand what we are talking about most of the time, so we have to appeal to them on a different level. Mona's point was great, because it would involve the responsitility and pride of keeping these birds in their natural habitat for the locals, but again, would require education on that end too. Most people see these birds as "just another animal", and don't understand our passion for them (as has been seen by the responses to our questioning the pro-breeder stance). I guess here the education piece needs to be focused on peoples' wellbeing, not the birds', because frankly most people just don't care. I believe the shock value of bite-pictures would be a start. It would have to be a massive effort, and can you imagine what the breeder response would be? Just some thoughts.

#102326 - 12/23/03 02:08 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
There are a couple of super good points that have been made here. First, in countries where people are poverty stricken people will sell these birds to feed their families as long as there are buyers.
I agree. Its only those who are not sticken(us) who have the pleasure of worrying about animals feelings. It's part of the privilege of wealth. In the Amazon if you have to chop down forests, hunt animals, sell animals to live then itís your damn right to. We did it in America. We logged our forests and hunted wildlife and sent plenty animals to extinction. The industrial revolution that brought most of the western world into modern civilization, polluted and abused so much of the environment. Let the struggling nations of the world use their resources as we have ours. Hypothetically, if a country ever thinks of cockatoos as a food source, it's their business. I would care less if they farmed them for food just like we farm pigs and cattle. If they think of them as a commodity such as gold, it's their right to mine them. Intelligence as a basis of an animal's worth is all relative to the culture's needs. We live in an oftentimes cold and lonely society. One based on the media and consumerism. Most of our living and food needs have been met... so we have the need(privilege) to worry about whether Poly should eat seeds or pellets..

So the solutions isn't in the native lands of these creatures. I think the solution lies directly with the sellers in this country. The impulse buy(and any bird purchase) either happens at the pet store or from the breeder. It's at these points were an uneducated person gets his/her first knowledge about parrots. If the sellers tells them cockatoos make lousy pets then the buyer won't buy. Perhaps there should be law to warranty a Too for 7 years. The seller has to buy back a cockatoo from the buyer if it doesnít work out after 7 years. How many people will sell toos after a law like this?

Or how about a law that would track the number of birds in shelters. If the leg tag records suggests that x amount of birds from this breeder or store ended up in rescues then that store or breeder will no longer be able to sell birds.

Or perhaps rather than a licence to own a cockatoo, you must have a licence to breed and sell a cockatoo. Part of that license requires having to follow certain ethical guidlines about how and to who you sell the bird to.

#102327 - 12/24/03 10:12 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Iron, i'd have to disagree with some of what you said.

True, Americans did destroy much of our own country, and send animals to extinction, but at least the majority of them have become more consious as to the world around them, and many people are trying to help preserve more of whats left of our natural resources. As far as cockatoos as a food source goes, I shudder to think. Images of chickens and turkeys being grabbed 4 at a time by their legs and being shoved into crates, or hung by their ankles and being slaughtered on an assembly line is enough to make me cry--I cannot even fathom this happening to our beautiful 'toos.

If impulse buyers take cockatoo ownership with a grain of salt now, just imagine what it would be like if people started farming them. Owning a cockatoo, to many people, would be no different than owning a chicken; at least, thats the impression they would get. Luckily, farming of large parrots could almost never happen anyway. Just imagine what would happen if we penned up 2000 cockatoos in one area, like chickens! After plucking and mutilating themselves, I reckon over half of them would eventualy kill eachother.

While "Intelligence as a basis of an animal's worth is all relative to the culture's needs", that dosen't change the reality of things, and cockatoos are far too emotional and demanding to ever be treated like cattle. Personaly, I don't even think cattle deserve to be 'treated like cattle' (it's sad when thats the only analogy you can come up with), but I don't think any cockatoo owner could bare the thought of a bird, no more inferior than the one that they care for, being treated like that. Anyway, just thought i'd throw that out there smile

Katy

#102328 - 12/26/03 03:42 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I know you said if I agree, I need not post, but I want to remind all of the folks here, that my home if brimming at 10 flock members. Nine of them have been previously owned. Of that 9, 6 are cockatoos + my original U2 that has only been homed here during his life.

The flock (Conures/Cockatoos/Amazon) have all been given up for the usual garden variety reasons.

What we know, that the general public does not know is that these birds require so much attention. That they are so intellegent. That they need to be free, not caged. That they don't belong in houses, they belong in the wild.

Think people - just because your cockatoo isn't displaying inappropriate behavior - doesn't mean squat. The percentage of birds with problems way outweighs the few that are doing well.

Again, my house is full of throw away birds - and they weren't thrown away because they were the perfect pets.

#102329 - 12/26/03 05:34 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Hi guys, I'm delurking for a bit since this thread is quite interesting. I split my orginal post into two parts. Part one deals with my response to Mona's post. Part two is about my thoughts on how parrots (and other exotics) should be licenced.

Mona, in fact you *can* sell a native bird of prey if it is captive bred and you and the buyer have proper permits. In the US the law is a bit foggy about captive-bred vs. wild caught birds of prey. Technically all native birds are 'owned' by the US federal government, but the presence of F2 and F3 (or more) generation captive-bred native birds confuses the issue.

Harris Hawks (the 'African Grey' of the hawk world) typically go for $300 to $500 US. Captive bred peregrine falcons in the US and Canada go for $1000 to $2500 US depending on genetics, race, sex, age, and rearing method. (Handraised birds are usually considered not as good a parent raised birds that were allowed to fledge "wild hacked" outdoors). More expensive birds such as the large eagles (black, tawny, golden, etc.) may go for much more.

The licensing issue is a very interesting one. If we are going to use US falconry laws as a example we need to keep a few things in mind. I am only going to use US falconry laws because other countries have different rules. The UK, for example, does not require licenses for captive bred closed-banded raptors.

Falconers wrote the laws themselves. They had to. Until the '70s most raptors were considered pests and it was legal to do with them what you liked. Many thousands were shot or poisoned, and some even had bounties on their heads. There are some truly horrible pictures of the carnage at Hawk Mountain where over 200 migrating hawks were shot in one day. Nobody cared if a few eccentrics kept a few hawks as pets. No doubt many hawks died due to substandard care, but many of the older falconers got their start with these 'pet' birds. In the '70s the environmental revolution occurred, and suddenly it was illegal to do *anything* to a native bird (other then game species). The falconers formed a club (North American Falconry Association, or NAFA) as well as numerous state clubs, through which they pushed through legislation allowing them to keep most native raptors (including owls, but excluding Bald Eagles, vultures, and kites. Not that anyone would want to fly a vulture or kite for falconry <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" /> ) BTW, Canada falconry laws are pretty much the same, save they do allow Bald Eagles. Today NAFA is the largest falconry club in the world with almost 10,000 members.

To be a falconer in the US requires both a state and federal license. If the state laws are not as strict as federal laws then it is not legal to practice falconry in that state. Federal licenses are required for native birds of prey, but only state is required for non-native. There are three ranks of falconer, Apprentice, General, and Master.

Apprentices must have a Mentor who is either a General or Master falconer supervise them for at least two years. The Apprentice must pass a very hard falconry test with an 80% or more. The test covers everything from trapping, training, identification, diseases and how to treat them, restraint, etc. They also must have their facilities inspected. Under federal law an Apprentice falconer is allowed one bird at a time, and one replacement bird a year if the first one escapes. They are only allowed to keep a Redtail Hawk, American Kestrel Falcon, or a Redshouldered Hawk (and in Alaska they are allowed a Northern Goshawk. Lucky Alaskans :p ). For this reason falconry will always be illegal in Hawaii. State laws are often different, and kestrels are considered poor beginner birds due to their small size and penchant for insects. The bird must be a wild caught bird on its first migration so that if it escapes it can feed itself. The Mentor *must* certify that the Apprentice is capable of being a good falconer before the Apprentice can become a General falconer. Mentors are not allowed more then three Apprentices at any one time. Apprentices are NOT allowed captive bred or wild eyas (taken from nest) birds. Only wild caught birds captured on their first migration.

General falconers are allowed two birds, and two replacements. They can have captive bred birds, or wild caught birds taken from nests (but there is a limit to the number so taken from any nest, at least two must be left IIRC). General class falconers may have any Threatened species, but no Endangered. (I believe that they can have peregrines now). They may not have any eagle. There are state rules concerning how many may be taken from the wild per year (depending on species), so it is not a free-for-all! In Oregon generally only 3 or 4 Northern Goshawks are allowed to be captured (although an unlimited number may be bred of course).

After five years as a General Falconer you become a Master Falconer (I think you just have to fill out a form). Master Falconers are allowed to have three falconry birds, and three replacement birds a year. Note: more birds can be kept by both General and Master falconers under breeding licenses, and some falconers get around the bird limit by getting a rehab or education license. A Master class falconer can fly native raptors listed as Endangered, as long as it was captive bred.

They may fly non-native eagles without any special licenses beyond the normal falconry ones. In the US the only native eagle that can be flown is a Golden Eagle. In order to fly a Golden you must either have at least two years experience flying a non-native eagle, or Apprentice to another Master falconer who flies a Golden for two years. It depends on the state, and not all states allow falconers to fly a Golden. The only Golden eagles allowed to be flown are either unreleasable imprints (who generally are screamers and/or highly aggressive. If you think a M2 is loud you have never heard a Golden Eagle with a screaming problem. I have. *shudders*), captive bred, or 'predation' birds whose only alternative is to be destroyed for killing livestock. In some states I believe it is legal to rescue a potential siblicide victim (the oldest baby golden often kills its sibling). Eagles are considered extremely high maintenance birds, and the Golden is the M2 of the raptor world.

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