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#102270 - 12/12/03 06:11 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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Rivercrow,

I agree with you 100%. Before I got my male Goffin, I had no idea what having a too would be like. I already had an Amazon, Pionus and Conure. All three of them put together are not near as demanding as my Goffin. I also would never have a U2 or an M2. I do not feel that I am able to handle the larger birds. But unfortunately some people are just not capable of realizing this and they purchase these birds and cannot handle them and they end up in rescues. I feel that a cooling off period would be great. Education would even better, but I feel that it would be difficult to regulate. I can only hope that there will continue to be compassionate people, such as the ones on this board, that will rescue and save these birds.

#102271 - 12/12/03 06:30 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I live in Australia. We have laws for having some of the larger 2's. We must pay a license fee & be available for inspections if required (rarely are). Sorry - but it just doesn't work. If I look through my local papers there are plenty of larger 2's for sale from backyard breeders who sell without permits. There are also many for sale from people who have no idea that THEY should have a license or permit as well. My sister in law just bought a baby MM2 without a permit & it was from a bird store. Add to all those loopholes the fact that the laws & licenses vary from state to state & it ends up as one big joke. I believe only a small minority of people obtain the correct permits.
As for owning them, I have been lucky so far. Only 1 slight feather plucker in my flock & I am confident that an aviary setting will stop this entirely. Yes mine mate, fly & associate me as a flock member but I have watched mine stare wistfully at their native cousins flying around free in full view, and I fully understand just what we have done to them! I also don't believe any bird is really domesticated. I do believe some just tolerate being caged better than others.
Out of my experiences in my own country, tiels & RB2's seem to do really well in captivity.BE2s & GSC2 less so. The worst pluckers I have seen here are BE2's and WTB's. In fact, most of the black 2's I have seen as adults in captivity pluck.
My thoughts on owning them are pretty much along the lines of what has already been stated. Licenses can work if the system is policed correctly. I also belive an aviary setting is the best for our birds if you have the room.

Eva....... smile

#102272 - 12/12/03 07:02 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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To rivercrow:

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From what I understand, you cannot sell a baby falcon, but if your birds happen to breed, you can *give* the young to someone (is that true?). If that's the case, the whole "profit from breeding" thing could disappear. (I think this is a *major* reason why you don't see raptors in petshops.
To answer your question, no you cant "give" away a baby falcon/hawk. You must be a licensed falconer/rehabilitator to own a hawk/falcon and even then you are limited to how many, depending on each states laws. So you wouldnt see them in pet stores anyway, they cant be sold OR given away.

Raptors (birds of prey) are a group of birds, which includes eagles, falcons, owls, kites, hawks, osprey and vultures. These birds of prey are protected through several laws, which include the Endangered Species Act, the Eagle Protection Act and the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. Violations of these laws can result in fines and/or imprisonment.

#102273 - 12/12/03 08:17 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Ah, I stand corrected. Thank you, Mona.

Regardless -- a falconry law applied to 'toos would take care of the breeding profit.

Raises another question: how do newly licensed falconers "come by" their birds? Thru cooperation with raptor rehab centers?

#102274 - 12/12/03 08:29 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Youre very welcome

New licensed falconers who wish to rehab or "own" a raptor must first apprentice and/or be sponsored by a general or master falconer for years sometimes or until the general/master falconer determines you are ready..(laws vary on the time, according to each state)

You must also prove that you have the facilities necessary to house a raptor. Here is just ONE states requirements, they may vary slightly from state to state, but this gives you an idea of what you must have in place to take in a raptor.

Get your facilities and equipment. You must, by law, have the following equipment: Aylmeri jesses - (including grommets, bracelets and jesses), leash, swivel, outdoor perch, scale [capable of reading ounce (14 grams) or better] and a bath pan. In addition you must have a hawk house large enough so that the hawk will have freedom of movement. Generally an 8'x 8'x 8' cube is sufficient for a free-lofted red tail hawk. If your home doesn't permit a hawk house [home owner association, size, landlord, etc.], the hawk may reside at a different address. Not generally a good idea, but much better than not having a hawk. Your sponsor will help [supervise] you as you get this together. If you include a weathering area, it must meet state and federal requirements also.

After all this, depending on the state again, some allow trapping of a raptor, but most come by them thru their sponsors or rehab facilities.

As you can see, becoming a falconer by passing the test (which is hard in itself), is just the FIRST step in many. It took my dad YEARS to become a master falconer.
Hope that helps!

#102275 - 12/13/03 12:02 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I just received this today. I have hundreds of these stories now, and every time I get another one.. I wonder why I continue to defend myself and my philosophy on the cockatoo issue.

Quote:
I have two M2's one male, one female. Got the male 6 yrs ago he was 9 approximately. Didn't have any idea what I was getting into.

It was great for about 2 years . He was beautiful! Went to bird farm to get wings clipped and saw a female. The bird farm said they would make a fine pair just let them play together. The male now has a hole in his chest and plucks. Many vets I have tried to repair this. One says large aviary alone, other says put him with female.
I made two aviary's one in middle. They play for a while, then she wants me like shes scared. In the mean time I'm going crazy especially at night. She will play with him all day but at night wants out of there. He at night mutilates himself. Yes I know they shouldn't be together after all my reading. But when they're together he stops mutilating and she screams for him during the day. I would like to go after the bird farm for letting me get in this situation I know I did wrong. Any advice I would appreciate. Barbara

#102276 - 12/13/03 02:06 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Jerry brought up a really good point about captivity for our large Toos involving a lifetime of sexual frustration. This one deprivation alone is a major source of distress and difficulty for our Too's and their owners. The animals that we domesticate are generally neutered unless kept for breeding, and I think it makes for a better life for the individual. It also controls the population, and makes providing an otherwise happy life easier for the owner to accomplish. I recently discussed this with my vet, and asked her why we do not neuter our birds. She explained the difficulty of the procedure due to avian anatomy. She has herself neutered just a few males that were otherwise unliveable in captivity, and it's very risky. She said that safer effective endoscopic surgeries are being developed currently. I personally feel it to be a good idea if it could be a fairly safe operation. I would chose that for my male U2 if it were safe. I'm sure there may be long term consequences, such as increased risk of obesity, or bone density issues, but I feel it would be worth it in quality of life for all involved.
That would also add the option of allowing only neutered individuals to be sold for pets, just like limited AKC registration for dogs. Perhaps that could put a dent in our unwanted bird population. As things stand now, I do not think the big birds should be bred and sold. They are just way too much for most people to provide for and live with in the long run. My one little guy is more work than taking care of a barn of eight horses ever was. smile

#102277 - 12/13/03 03:16 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I have never understood why people assume any male bird paired with any female bird will work. Will any male human pair successfully with any female human?

The 'tiel hen I had had the choice of 2 courting males, and she chose one over the other. Neither male was interested in Ivan, our other 'tiel hen.

More human arrogance. Why assume that these horny birds just need a mate of the opposite sex for happiness? If my husband were a stereotypic hyper-macho-male, I'd probably self-mutilate too.

Isn't there something in psychology about inward and outward agression/depression? Is that what mutilation and "wife-abuse" are in 'toos?

#102278 - 12/13/03 03:55 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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you are correct about simply throwing in any bird and hoping that the new couple will get along. Birds are NO different than us in this respect! They spend a lot of time searching for just the right mate as we do. It's no wonder there are so many problems associated with pairs.

But lets not diminish the CRUSHING need to reproduce with simple "horniness". This need becomes a major frustration with them just as it does with us. And because they were never meant to be caged... there's not a hell of a lot we can do about it!! The odds of finding a real lifetime pair bond is rare. And most people wouldn't have the proper setup anyway.

So you see... in our selfishness to have these creatures as "pets".. companions or however you justify it... we have literally broken them to our will. And the result can be seen on our Torture Page.

#102279 - 12/13/03 04:03 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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What a conversation starter....'excuse me sir, where is the raptor aisle?'. eek
It is not only illegal but would be insane for a businessman to sell a harpy eagle to the general (and unsuspecting) public. Why should the larger cockatoos be treated any differently? These birds are not domesticated even if they can dance or shoot some hoops on command. I would love to see the sale and intentional breeding of these birds BANNED for the sake of this magnificant animal... an animal that, more often than not, suffers in the care of humans.

#102280 - 12/13/03 04:24 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I guess that we have just been lucky. We have a D2 and a U2 and for the most part, the U2 has been easier than the D2. The D2 is only 9 mos old but she can be a handful, very demanding but she is a little sweetheart. The U2 was adopted and we have not been able to get much history on him and for that reason, I say we have been lucky. He is a preener, but no picking, he does chew some of his feathers but he has a great disposition. We have only had him for about 4 mos and thanks to this board we are much more knowledgeable now than when we first became his forever home.

I know that some of the big birds come with a lot of baggage or just seem to have it in the genes. Who knows what they are thinking between those beautiful black eyes? We will continue to discover all sorts of things from our birds.

#102281 - 12/13/03 07:11 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I agree, Jerry--I figure a bonded bird pair has as much to do with simple horniness as a bonded human pair. The relationship is more complex than that, otherwise it wouldn't last once the initial urges were satisfied. Again, that's human arrogance that only we are capable of complex emotions.

#102282 - 12/13/03 11:50 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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How did the bans on other birds over the years happen? Or maybe even how did people get a liscensing law on falcons and such? Is there any way we could bring that up and have that done in at least some states or maybe even the whole country? The problem of people not understanding how to properly care for a 'too in ALL areas will only get worse if something drastic isn't done. This whole conversation has brought up many good ideas, and I for one say put them to use.

Also about the need to reproduce. I agree that they need to, but how can that happen without the female having a chance of getting pregnant? Even to help the species out. Taking care of a bunch of babies plus the needs of the parents could take a lot of time, money, and patience.

#102283 - 12/14/03 05:41 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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The pregnancy part is the least of our problems as we know how to handle that. The real problem is the astronomical odds of finding the perfect mates.

#102284 - 12/14/03 06:39 AM Re: Should they be sold?  

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The only way to find a good mate is to I guess go from one bird to the other? I'm not exactly sure how that would work out, but humans do the same thing. Go from person to person seeing who they click with the most.

#102285 - 12/15/03 02:41 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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it would be great if we had laws like the ones that were suggested earlier in this thread....
....but who would enforce them?
frown you know and i know that creating public sympathy for something like this is darn near impossible.
On another note, heres a question i have (ps. i don't condone the sale of these birds.)

what if there were no more forests and the people who fight for them lost? What if the jungle was gone?
what happens then?
I only bring this up because i am in another hobbie that has wild caught animals and creatures for the home (reef aquariums)
some of the wild places of the earth are almost gone forever.
I really wish we did have to jump thru hoops, to keep these birds, having them cooped up just isn't a right, and it isn't a priv, its a condition of the heart...a sadness for that which was wild, an apology for human indifference. And it is the best i can do.

by the way jerry, i don't live in a stinky apartment....lol i rent a two bedroom so the too's have their own room. Just thot you'd like to know. wink

The birds that exist already fill the need that is out there.
I think the laws that should be made would not be enforced.
I think it should be black or white, legal or not legal, and i am on the side of not legal.
I love my guys too much to doom them all to a miserable life.

#102286 - 12/15/03 07:33 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Given that we are humans and fallible--is there a chance that we incorrectly categorized big 'toos, and they may be a type of "raptor" in their environment? Sort of like shrikes?

I mean, after reading that aviculturists in Australia feed their MM2's mice and pinkies to prevent plucking....

(Okay, I admit it's far-fetched, but I haven't seen many field studies of 'too behavior and suspect they are understudied.)

#102287 - 12/16/03 05:32 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Quote:
what if there were no more forests and the people who fight for them lost? What if the jungle was gone? what happens then?
Ok... you tell me: What would you prefer? For the species to (possibly) become extinct, or to torture the birds in cages all their lives? I'll take a quick death to slow torture any day.

But lets look at it a little more realistically: If the forrest's disappear, we wont need the 'Toos anyway. (Or anything else that lives there at which point we'll all be at the mercy of the dangerous conditions we will have created). Everything in this world is here for a reason. Remove a link in the chain of life and you've started a chain reaction that even we cant answer the question of the consequences. So having the 'Toos only in cages wont help the environment and in return wont help man. They will be there for nothing more than pity or selfishness. This is sad because they are in their own way... just as valuable to the environment as any and every other animal and so we really cant afford to loose them in the wild.

#102288 - 12/16/03 07:56 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Hmmmm.... I'm still waiting for the philosophical debate. Whenever I think about wading in I remember the lesson learned from the Battle of the Little Bighorn ;-)

Cub

#102289 - 12/16/03 09:09 PM Re: Should they be sold?  

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Well what do we do if we find the perfect mate for our birds? Breed them or just let them be together in separate cages (or one big one?) Is it possible to breed cockatoos and raise them to be released into the wild?

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