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#102250 - 12/11/03 12:58 AM Should they be sold?  
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Jerry Offline
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I have felt for many years that the large 'Toos should not be bred and sold until we can get a grip on all the problems that come along with these birds. ( Like you didnt know that about me).

My question is this: Does ANY member of this board feel differently? If so, would you be willing to discuss your opinion? I'm not looking for a "fight".. but maybe an informative debate?

Those who feel like I do neednt post that fact, as it will just waste space on this topic. I'm looking for anyone who feels that the large 'Toos should be bred and sold (and yes you must include the fact that if so.. they will be sold in pet store chains like PetSmart)

If a debate does get started, others may join into the debate at that point.

#102251 - 12/11/03 03:02 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Well you have opened this one up and my personal opinion is not so much should they be sold because they are and will be unless there are regulations and rules in place from the governments of countries that have money to halt the sales. To stop the sales you will either have to make it illegal to own the birds or breed them. Some places have exotic licenses in place and this slows sales but it doesn't stop them.

Lets face it most of us live in "have" countries and can afford to purchase these birds and all the accountrements that go with them.

Pet stores are a convenience store for the sale of animals and if it was a perfect world they would not be able to sell these birds. Specialty stores with proper education of potential buyers would be prefered.

I hope that the discussion can be rational and without rancor when I say that I recognise that appropriate and judicious breeding of certain species should be allowed to proceed and the sales of the offspring to a well educated public.

I recognise that not everyone educates themselves in the habits of their pets and their are loads of sugar gliders, tortoises and other exotics out there looking for homes. Perhaps what we need to have is a 30 day cool off period so that persons can evaluate the purchase that they are about to make prior to even receiving it.

We do it with guns and believe me some of these birds are a loaded weapon just waiting to go off.

We can't stop the sales so we have to make the effort to find another approach. I am not sucking up when I say that this site and your committment is one step in the right direction and I know that I always ask people to take a look at it first prior to a rescue, adoption or purchase of a bird. For each person that sees it and appreciates what is here that is one more educated individual that will at least have information. What they do with it is of course up to them.

Lets begin with the discussion and keep it on an even keel. I really like you people so lets not make any attacks on me personal. We haven't even touched on the breeders themselves but we have to starts someplace.

Thanks.S.G eek

#102252 - 12/11/03 03:38 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Jerry you say that you do not think that large toos, should be bred and sold. Do you feel differantly about smaller 'toos???

#102253 - 12/11/03 04:25 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Personally... no... but realistically.. yes. I think a person stands a much better chance with a Goffins as opposed to a Moluccan. (But this is opening another kettle of fish). So lets just say all 'Toos.

#102254 - 12/11/03 04:58 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Ok... I hope the day arrives that the US government offers the same protection to the precious exotic non native species as we do the common Blue jay. ( which by law has the same protection as a Bald Eagle). We would have to be licensed and inspected. Yes, I know that's a dirty thought to many, but at least I'd like to see the 'Toos fall into that category. I'm sure many will disagree with this idea but I cant think of another way to solve the problem other than an outright ban.

I simply cant understand why people THINK it's perfectly alright capture... cage...and take away the normal life of an exotic bird, while never considering for one single second doing the very same thing to our native species. For instance, Blue Jays and Crows make as good a "pet" as the Goffins or Umbrella and are VERY smart. But we somehow consider THEM to be wild ... while we consider the parrots to be DOMESTICATED. As most of us know... the parrots are just as wild as the Crow!

I guess in our selfishness to have these creatures close to us .. we will use any "logic" to justify this. But the fact is that 95% of us cannot provide for these birds needs. Food, mates, freedom to fly is nothing but a dream of almost ALL of these captive birds. This lack of being allowed to "be a bird" is what really takes it's toll on the 'Toos especially. In our selfishness and greed (sellers) we have managed to make a mockery of these wonderful creatures life.

I'm all for the keeping of animals who can tolerate (and even enjoy) being kept. I'm all for those who can actually provide a natural environment for those who cant tolerate being kept. (less than 5%) But at the rate we're going right now, I see nothing but trouble ahead with no end in sight.

#102255 - 12/11/03 11:21 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Who can look out their window and watch the wild birds with their freedom and not feel guilt about our captives? It's my opinion that no bird should be caged.

I feed the outside birds at my home and then see the exact type of bird being sold at a store in a little tiny cage. What a different life that store bird has from the ones I feed.

A bird should want to fly and want to be outside. My M2 had obviously never been outside before moving in our home. He was afraid to be outside, and still will only stay out if I'm right there. He is terrified to be outdoors??? What has been created? A creature that is frightened of what should be natural for him? And why? Because someone wanted a bird to use as a breeder to make money.

It's not just the TOOS. They have a harder time of it because of their intelligence I believe. They are not domesticated, dogs are. Dogs adore us and if raised properly, they are wonderful pets. Birds...well, ask the people who own them if they trust their bird not to bite them? My Jack Russell Terrior would not bite me to save her life, think I'd say the same about my M2?

I know that this is an issue that I may stand alone on, I know that most probably think that smaller birds are fine to keep. Next time you're thinking that, look outside and watch the wild ones.

I am here to learn as much as I can so that my captive bird can have the best life possible with his lot in live. I HATE it that he was not hatched in the wild and I wish that he never had the misfortune to have to live in my home. Since he is not capable of surviving in the wild, I feel it's my job to make sure that he's as happy as he can be.

There are so many expectations for wanting our birds to act a certain way and be cuddle bugs. If they want it, give it to them, but on their terms, not ours. It's my opinion that they are not pets at all. They are prisioners. It may not be our fault...but if we buy from a breeder or petstore and make the decision to have them as a "pet", then is it our fault?

If we've obtained our birds and we were ignorant to the plight of these animals, then it's because we were not educated (or of another opinion than mine) and the guilt felt at that point is self imposed. I would NEVER judge someone who bought from a breeder because it's not my place, it's their's. We have to look inside ourselves for the answers, and decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong on these issues. I only ask that before anyone buys a TOO, look outside and observe the wild birds first.

Cynthia

#102256 - 12/11/03 04:11 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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What do you think of cockatiels? I understand that all non-Australian 'tiels (or, most of them) are from those exported before the 1890's. I don't think most of those birds would survive in the wild. At what point do we consider those "domesticated"?

Just to play devil's advocate:
How about the deforestation in the areas where these birds natively live? Should all affected birds be collected for zoo breeding programs to preserve them? Or do we take the hard-line that species go extinct, and humans are simply playing an innocent part of nature by destroying the enviroment (I have heard that argument, not making it up).

#102257 - 12/11/03 06:38 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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It is the country of origin that has to have the laws and enforcment in place if they want to keep their wild creatures safe. Reciprocal laws in countries that import then also need to be in place.

Australia which frequently gets a bad rap for the treatment of it's wild cockatoos has stringent laws in place regarding the export of birds for several reasons and they have been in place since the late 1950's. Technically, therefore unless you have a wild caught bird from that period, have brought one out with you with all the appropriate papers, it is a bird that has either been smuggled out or bred outside of the country.

Does a bird that is bred outside of its natural enviroment, is hand raised, hand fed etc, retain it's wild character? A good question eh? It certainly has natural instincts but could this bird ever be returned to the wild and be expected to survive?

Once again Mankind has interfered with the natural order and we can only try to do our best to make the best homes for these birds that are around us and being bred.

Stricter regulations need to be put into place and bad breeders need to be put out of business.

Are you prepared for more federal, state, municipal government in your life to attain these goals? That becomes the real question.

Are you as an owner of a too prepared to license your bird as you would a cat or dog in whatever country you live in? This could be a big fee to limit the number of birds sold. If some abitrary inspector comes in and makes a claim that you are abusing the bird are you prepared to defend how you care for the bird? Are you prepared to give it up if all the powers that be decide that you should not own the bird?

Believe me there are currenly municipalities in Canada taking a serious look at severly restricting certain pet ownership and in some instances cockatoos are on the books. I know that the AACC in Canada through some of it's directors has been involved in these battles already.

I keep birds because they improve my quality of life and I try to make sure that theirs is the best possible. My galahs certainly have it better here than they did before even though the person that had them thought that they were doing all the right things.

We do rescues and fostering when possible and educate, educate, educate. We do not encourage the purchasing of toos but if the person seems right, has done the homework and appears to be committed we hope that we have been able to provide a good home for another bird that is already existing by whatever means. We will never be able to stop the flood but perhaps we can slow it's inexorable advance.
S.G

#102258 - 12/11/03 11:52 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I havenít posted to this sight but maybe twice to get some information, but with the opening of this discussion and the thread that was closed the other day, I feel itís time to jump in.

I bought my bird from a breeder, as it was I had to drive from Kansas City to southern Louisiana to get her, but if I could have afforded to I would have bought her from the local Petsmart or Petland.

I respect the opinion that these birds should never be sold or bred, I just donít necessarily agree with it. It doesnít make sense to me that large parrots are put in one category and all other birds in another. If toos are wild and tiels and others are not, when exactly did domestication start with these other birds, and at what point can or will we call the too a domesticated bird? All animals were wild at one time and all animals have at the very least ďsomeĒ of their wild instincts. Show me a dog or cat that doesnít bite and they are probably stuffed. Thatís how they communicate fear, uneasiness, happiness, etc. itís the same for toos. It doesnít necessarily mean they are wild and canít be happy in captivity. I for one believe my Pmo to be happy and fulfilled, I can see it in her in our everyday interactions, and I donít think anyone could convince me otherwise.

I am just as appalled at the abuses that take place as anyone else, there are people in this world that that would do harm to animals no matter what you or I say, we can do our small part to stop it, and thatís what we can do. But on the other hand, I believe that there are many petshops and breeders that truly love their animals as much as you or I. Its my belief that the fact they buy sell and breed doesnít have anything to do with how much they care for and love their animals/birds.

We all have different opinions on whatís best for toos, but it seems at times there is much debate on who loves their too more, your side or my side.

#102259 - 12/12/03 01:22 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Patrick, interesting perspective and thanks for adding your opinion. I think that's what we are after in order to look at directions that we can each add to our lives and do the best that we can.
S.G

#102260 - 12/12/03 02:02 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I liked the cooling off period idea and would like to propose another. How about making classes manitory to purchase a bird? We have to pass a test to get a license for our cars why not claases say of 6 months( this would weed out the impulse buyers too) and a test at the end?

I have had only really positive feelings have Toos in my life. I don't feel that we should import birds from the wild, but I think good responsible breeders should be able to breed and sell them.

Perhaps some laws regarding breeders and responsiblites to the people they sell to? Not telling people that Toos are like Golden Retrivers etc.. Have both them and Shelters teach the classes?

As to the problem of Toos being put into shelters did you know that cocktiels out number Toos in shelters? Why? Because they are so inexpensive "throw away" birds, but we don't hear people talking as much about them,. Why is that?

We need to get these shelters to do more education, and get birds adopted out instead of the ones that just keep them or at worst become hoarders.I know that they want to match the right person with the right bird so perhaps the claases idea would work? After passing you could then adopt a bird in whatever state you liked?

Thanks to this board I know that I will NEVER purchase or adopt a M2. I have heard them on my speakers and in pet stores and I don't believe a have the temperment to have one. They are much louder than both of my U2's put together. But I would not have known that if I hd not come here.
That is not to say that there aren't people that would be fine with that level of noise, just not me!

I believe in researching any animal that would come to live with me, I resarched U2's for a couple of years before I got Gyspy Rose, and adopted Shiloh from a friend that did not.she received the bird as a gift and couldn't handle the noise when Shiloh got to where she screamed constantly.

Anyone that has nay kind of pet should subscribe to magazines, read books and belong to websites such as this Knowledge and unconditional love is the key. Let the bird be abird as much as you can
Nan

#102261 - 12/12/03 02:43 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Who would impliment a cooling off period? A impulse buy is why people find themselves in trouble to begin with. A pet store or breeder is in the business to make money, and they want it as quickly as possible. I wondering how you could make that work?
Classes, how would one go about finding qualified people to run these classes. We are all very knowlageable...but even we have differences and who would follow up with any parrot owner who failed to take one? Our local animal control wont even pick up road accidents anymore.
Just wondering.

#102262 - 12/12/03 02:49 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Jerry Offline
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Quote:
Are you prepared for more federal, state, municipal government in your life to attain these goals? That becomes the real question.
YOU BET I AM! In order to make a real change in these birds lives I'd even deal with the government if it would help! Falconers have done it for years and have absolutely no problems.

Quote:
Stricter regulations need to be put into place and bad breeders need to be put out of business.
OK... in my book, they're ALL bad breeders if they continue to breed knowing full well what the outcome is most likely to be! A breeder is not bad simply for selling to PetSmart (although they will have a special place in hell waiting for them) but bad for knowing that the creature they're selling has no business being held prisoner in some dumpy apartment cooped up in a too small cage (they're ALL too small!) and that this creature will most likely suffer simply for being born.

Quote:
If toos are wild and tiels and others are not, when exactly did domestication start with these other birds, and at what point can or will we call the too a domesticated bird?
Who made that statement? I said that SOME birds can handle captivity while others cant, simply because of the higher degree of intelligence and "wildness". The big 'Toos have proven this over and over.

The people who worry me the most are those who actually think that their birds are overjoyed just to live with them. I have said this a thousand times and I'll say it again: Turn the bird loose and see how much he loves you! While they certainly seem to make the most of their situation and even appear happy living with us... that couldnt be further from the truth. They are making the best of a bad situation and they will often show you at maturity or breeding time just exactly what they think of their situation.

People have made fun of me for making the following statement in the past (because they are ignorant enough to not want to face the truth) but I'll say it again:

" Unless you can provide everything INCLUDING the ability to breed... you are denying your bird the most important aspect of his reason to live. Birds have one of the most powerful sex drives in the animal kingdom. And when you deny this is true, then you deny everything else about them. Imagine yourself going throughout your entire life without sex. Now... place that burden on your parrot and tell me just how ecstatic he is to live with you!"

Quote:
How about making classes mandatory to purchase a bird? We have to pass a test to get a license for our cars why not classes say of 6 months( this would weed out the impulse buyers too) and a test at the end?
This is certainly a step in the right direction. But two problems still exist: First, places like Petsmart arent going to do anything to cause less sales. If they tell customers the truth, most wont buy the birds and so there's no point in carrying them. Second: Even the most well informed customer wont be able to provide the proper environment unless he or she is wealthy enough to build a huge outdoor aviary and allow the birds to be birds. That's the main problem facing these big 'Toos: Lack of natural environment. Once you've imprinted a 'Too... he's as good as dead unless that imprinting continues for the rest of his life. The odds of that happening are very unlikely. Even then... there's possibility of serious problems.

#102263 - 12/12/03 05:17 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Jerry,
I've been wondering about something for a while. You have a link to a breeder (albiet, a good one apparently) on your site, yet you seem to be very strongly against breeding and selling Toos. It seems very odd.

#102264 - 12/12/03 05:36 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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This just goes to show you how long it's been since I've re-vamped the main site. If you look again, you'll see it's gone. While that breeder was probably as good as any you'll find, I simply cant condone breeding whatsoever at this point.

#102265 - 12/12/03 09:05 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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As much as I love my Toos (4 of them and all rescued to some degree) I would give them back to nature in a heart beat if I could. I know that sounds corny and I don't say it for popularity. I personally would ban the breeding of all exotic birds for the pet trade. There are plenty in existence now. I try very hard to enrich my birds' lives in every way possible - diet, housing, intellect, social and yes, even sexual. (I do not believe in keeping only one of a species - but I will not allow breeding. In no way do I think that I am the best but what worries me the most is the "keepers" who seem to know less than nothing. Unfortunately any of those with the money can obtain the victim and so it goes. That is why I say ban it. If the government started to regulate it, they would collect fees or taxes and the birds would not really be any better off.

#102266 - 12/12/03 11:02 AM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Hi all, I'm a new poster but also a long time lurker.

Let me start off by saying that I do not own a Too. After reading all of this I would never want to own one and would support your cause. I will not however support the banning of ALL birds(i acknowledge that many of you do not either). They are not all the same and yes some are even domesticated such as the English Budgie. They have been bred for distinct features and for show. So the domestication of birds is very possible. Also I feel that people who have had bad experiences with larger parrots have no right to ruin it for owners of smaller birds who have nothing but good times with their pets. So someone screwed up and bought a Too. No need to screw over those who made a more suitable choice.

The topic of this thread seems to be in search of a good argument for the owning of a Too. Well I think from what I've read there really isn't a good argument, or at least one that will outweigh the argument against owning a too. I've read many of what Jerry has written and he definitely stays focused on the "Larger, intelligent" birds. It is a wise choice on his part because I think it becomes unreasonable when it goes beyond these birds, the argument loses weight. Most importantly, the argument loses support.

BTW I own budgies who enjoy free flight.
I also own a Pionus who is very un-neurotic. I would get him a friend if he didn't have PDD.

#102267 - 12/12/03 03:05 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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Yes.. please keep in mind at ALL times that I am talking large 'Toos here. And unless you've ever lived with one, you have no idea of what I'm talking about. The big 'Toos are as different from other parrots as cats are from dogs. I've have many experienced parrot people tell me that they couldn't understand this UNTIL they actually took-in a Moluccan Cockatoo.

The first thing non cockatoo owners fear is someone trying to take their birds away or make it harder to keep them. The fact is that any future laws (and I seriously doubt you'll see this in your lifetime) will pertain to birds that are sold beginning at such and such a date and will not affect current owners.

Quote:
They are not all the same and yes some are even domesticated such as the English Budgie.
There is no such thing as a "domesticated" cockatoo. There are few if any "domesticated" birds at all. There are only birds that can tolerate and make the most of captivity. Given the choice, they would happily fly away to live their life in the wild and never look back. It's just that simple. Birds were never meant to be caged. That's why God gave them wings to fly. Those birds that cannot fly (like the Penguin) might make a much better choice as a "domestic" bird as long as you have enough fish on hand.. but we wouldn't even consider THAT would we.....? Wait! Dont answer that! eek

#102268 - 12/12/03 04:18 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I wasnít quoting anyone, I was simply putting into writing what I interpret as the gist of your argument, (big Toos are to wild to be in captivity), again I respect your opinion, I just donít agree.

With the exception of the ones that have problems, which is usually due to neglect and/or abuse, if they ďappearĒ happy to be living with us, how does anybody know that they are not? Just because a bird can fly, doesnít mean they are going to fly away from you given the opportunity. I wonít say it doesnít happen, but some choose not to fly away from their owners.

Any animal that reaches sexual maturity has the strong instinct to breed, listen to the yowling cats at night, watch the dogs that are trying to escape their owners when they think its time to breed that normally are very happy and content to be ďkeptĒ.

My argument is simply this, we as human beings have to some degree domesticated almost every animal on this planet, we canít help it, itís in our nature. Animals enrich our lives, and in some small degree I hope that we enrich theirs. Because of this we have created a market, petshops and breeders have there place there are good and bad, there are ethical and unethical, just like individual people. To me concentrating on getting rid of the bad and unethical is my time better spent than trying to bar ownership of a certain breed.

#102269 - 12/12/03 04:24 PM Re: Should they be sold?  
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I haven't had an M2/U2. Do not want one. Never wanted one, even before I found this site. My G2 taught me that I do not have the resources for anything much bigger than him.

I've only had 2 larger birds -- my G2 and my new baby CAG. So far (and she is only an 11-month old CAG), I've determined that people who may be experienced with CAGs have **absolutely no idea** about life with a 'too. Even a small 'too. Tuhi (CAG) is demanding, but nowhere near as emotionally and intellectually demanding as Sedgewick (G2) was. I cannot imagine how people have multiple 'toos of any species (other than 'tiels).

I like the "cooling off" idea. I love the mandatory classes idea (and it must include how to make safe toys!). These two should be combined, and people should be made to look at the self-mutilated bird pictures and listen to happy 'too displays.

I think these should be applied to all birds, tho. Poor little 'tiels. I know a person with a Bourkes who refuses to get bird toys since the bird "doesn't like them". Same person wants more birds!

I also like the gun law "cooling off" period, but you see how hard that is to enforce.

Coming from a security background, I know that enforcing laws is difficult. So is catching and proving a violation. Too many people just shrug and think "What can one person do?" or "Don't rock the boat", and never report the violation. (Which should explain some of my upset over the lack of ethics shown by some veterinarians.)

But since the "right to keep birds" is not in the Constitution, maybe the falconer's laws would work. Falconer's laws would also provide additional protection for stolen birds. From what I understand, you cannot sell a baby falcon, but if your birds happen to breed, you can *give* the young to someone (is that true?). If that's the case, the whole "profit from breeding" thing could disappear. (I think this is a *major* reason why you don't see raptors in petshops. After Harry Potter, you sure could have made a bunch on snowy owls if you *could* sell them!)

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