I do not know if this the right place for this but there is one thing that will get my dander up and that is hybreeding birds. For those who do not know what I am talking about it is the practice of taking two different types of for example Cockatoos an Umbrella and a Moluccan and forcing tham to breed together and then giving them a name like Molbrella. This happens in many types of parrots, Macaws and Conures as well. A mutation is something totally different for example a Blue Lovebird is a natural mutation of the normal green Peachface. Forcing two different types of Cockatoos, Conures, Macaws or any type of parrots together to hybridize is in my book wrong! Forunately cross species such as a Cockatoo and Macaw or Budgie and Cockatiel cannot happen too different genitically. This still goes on and it not only creats a strange looking bird but one that could have health problems as well. It is not the bird that is produced fault but the breeders interested in a buck that cause this. Thanks for giving me a place to vent about this it is and will always be a sore spot with me.

Dave I think most all true parrot lovers will agree and its something I preach about whenever I see a breeder offering hybrids, often advertising them as "rare" to lure in unsuspecting buyers. Its a disgusting practice among unethical and immoral breeders and makes me very angry also.

I understand the arguments against hybrid production, but health isn't really one of them. In genetics there is a phenomenon known as "hybrid vigor", in which hybrid organisms may be healthier because they have complimentary damaging recessive genes - which means, in english, that if one member of the pair has a deleterious gene, it is likely that the other member does not, so the offspring will be healthier. If the offsring are fertile, then there is no argument at all, since this means that they were members of different races of the same species. For example, a bird store near us has a hybrid B&G/military. If the bird, (who is as sweet as a bird can be, BTW), can reproduce, then all that tells us is that militaries and B&G's are the same species, just with different coloration. I agree wholeheartedly that advertising such an animal as something "special" or rare, while technically correct, is not fair to the new owners nor to the bird. If the offspring are infertile, then the practice is, in my view as a biologist, just a commercialization of a horrible practice.

Jay

I have to disagree about the special or rare part of it, that is just a ploy to lure someone into buying it. I have heard a breeder tell a person that a Harlequin Macaw could be found in the rainforest, where over the rainbow in Oz! It is irresponsible for anyone to do this for any reason. To me it just amounts to greed and laziness. The vets who have spoken at our club and the ones at the seminar we hosted all agreed that they see many hybrids with health problems a much higher number than a pure one of the species. This is not like dog breeding to create a new breed, how many wild Poodles are found in the rainforest or Africa. My club is adamantly against this practice and do all we can to educate the public to stop this practice. As I said before we cannot condemm the bird created out of this but we can the breeder. What will we say in the future when the only place we will see a pure Scarlett Macaw or Moluccan Cockatoo is in pictures but have a Ruby Macaw (Scarlett + Greenwing) in someone's living room. Food for thought.

You have to read carefully what I said in my previous post. The key is whether the offspring are fertile. In most hybridizations the parental generation is from different species, and the offspring are infertile. that benefits nobody, although the offspring might be interesting or attractive. But, if the offspring can reproduce normally with purebred mates from either of the parent's "species", then the hybridization is likely to produce hybrid vigor. In the case of parrots it isn't likely that for any given bird, such as the one I referred to in my last post, its reproductive capacity will ever be known precisely. My only point is that hybridization doesn't have to produce unhealthy offspring, although for many other reasons in the bird world, it should be avoided. I think we agree more than we disagree.

Jay

I agree it doesn't have to produce unhealthy offspring but from what vets have told me they see more health problems in hybrids. I have asked why and they do not know the answer. I do know that in Lovebirds crossing an eyering such as a Black Mask and a Peachface will give you mules. I have seen many hybrids especially Macaws and the one feature that hit me first is that the colors of the offspring differ from baby to baby it isn't consistent and they were from the same clutch. That is what scares me is that they are most likely able to breed and greed will continue to push people to breed them. I am like Mona and Preach to the breeders also. We all need to stop this for the sake of the different species and their future.

Geridoc, I have always been told that hybrid babies grow up to be just as fertile as pure species and thats the problem...THEY are then bred and it goes on and on, diluting the gene pool even more. Its WRONG, whether it be for health reasons or not. Of course the poor little birds cant help what or where they came from and need homes too, but we need to get behind the breeders doing this on purpose and then promoting the practice as "producing exotic or rare birds"..to the unsuspecting public :-(

Dave mentioned breeding Peachfaced Lovebirds with White Eyering Species. Whether they will bring offspring who turn out as Mules, I don`t know, however there are many differences. The way they carry their nesting material. They build a completely different type nest. The white eyering species build their nest domed which the Peacefaceds don`t, in other words breeding a mixed species like that would create conflict in many areas. The first offspring or Phenotype does not show what the Genotype is, so the buyer of a normal looking bird would end up with a hybrid in the second generation.
Just my 2 cents worth.
LindaK

The only problem in the hybreds that I have heard is that sometimes the hybred ends up looking like one of the parents and not looking like the intended hybred. In other words, a Harlequin could end up looking like a Blue and Gold or a Greenwing Macaw thus "tainting" the genes in that bird, which if bred as a B&G would be a BAD SITUATION. If it looks like a B&G, the owner must always let whoever/whatever the future holds for that bird be known that it is a hybred. I own a Harlequin and know of other hybred owners too, and all of us know the negitive sides of these birds and they should NEVER be in a breeding situation. I have never heard of this bad gene/good gene thing.

One day when the rainforests are gone and birds intending on breeding cannot find a mate of the same species, I feel(unfortunatly), will end up with another and thus create a hybred. This statement is how I feel about Macaws ONLY! We all know how easy our birds bond with anything around that will be with them, plus Mother Nature has inprinted animals to bred to survive. That is NUMBER one on ALL things living. One of the Macaw hybreds I have read is actually in the wild now. (I don't remember which one, I'll have to research to find out which one and where I read it)

Does it make it right??? NO!

Am I for the hybreds??? I don't know because I love mine.. So I am VERY VERY torn!!

Are they only there for money? Which birds were not created or stolen out of the wild for money.

UNFORTUNATELY Hybreds are not the only problem in the bird world. Every bird is a potental problem down the road if steps are not put into place so that the bird is taken care of properly.

God must look down on us with alot of shame because we have "jacked" with mother nature in so many ways. Want a dog or cat with no hair? WAM! Dogs and cats ARE bred for looks, size, temperment, and just about every other thing imaginable. Hey........ what sex of child do you want?? Male or female? WAM! You got your wish. Corn just doesn't grow in a field anymore either. Oranges are "formulated" so they taste better. Cows are messed with so that they produce more milk. I guess I could go on and on......

$$$$$$$$'s in this day is #1 period! That is why our planet is slowing being killed.

Like I said.... Are Hybreds right? I don't know! I just look at mine and love it forever.

Rob

I'm depressed now......... so please don't flame too bad on me.

Rob,
No one is going to flame you. Your bird needed someone to love it, TY. BUT if the breeders weren't playing God and mixing them it would of never been a decision to make for you. So yes, the birds produced need people to love them but they should of NEVER happened in the 1st place. Just another breeder downfall .

I "think" what most of us are trying to say here or at least agree on is;
1. Hybridization IS an abomination of nature & NOT in any avian/mamalian species best interest.
2. The hybrid birds that ARE here deserve all the love, care & undestanding that we can give them.
3. To NEVER allow them to reproduce.
My 2 cents.
Liisa

Have to add my 2 cents to this thread.
Hybrids are one of my biggest peeves with the breeders in Australia at the moment.
I have seen RB2's & BE2's crossed, even GSC2 & BE2's. I have also seen MM2's that were crossed with ? (who knows) being sold.
The RB2 & BE2 hybrid birds I have interacted with are very nippy among other things and do not display the generalized behaviour traits of either parent. I believe that it not only pollutes each species gene pool but also that hybrid birds could themselves also be affected mentally as well. This is just my observation.
The hybrids that are here should be loved & cherished just like all others should, they did not ask to be here, some selfish person allowed them to be.
And as others have said, they should not be advertised as rare to lure in unsuspecting people.
A hybrid RB2/BE2 was promoted at one bird store here as a beautiful apricot baby. Very rare & very desirable. The bird was lovely in it's own right BUT the beak was very strange looking, to big for it's overall size & very strange looking in general. The scarey part is that these birds are becoming much more common now & if it is true that they are fertile, then god forbid what the future holds.
Also please remember that if Macaws or any other species are producing hybrids in the wild, it is because we have upset the balance. Nature intended these species to be pure & if it was otherwise, these new hybrids would have been discovered decades ago.
Dave - we have had discussions here before about hybrids & I am with you 100 percent!
Rob - love your bird for who it is but please do condemn the breeders that are churning out these birds to the unsuspecting public.

Eva.....

Oh, that's scary, Eva. What a shame! I agree with all of the comments made. Rob, you shouldn't feel bad at all. You love your bird and that's what it's all about. None of us are breeders and many of us have guilt over "owning" a living being that was meant to fly. Thank God most bird owners have a conscience but will continue to give all they can to these beautiful, loving creatures. We are really all they have and if loving care is what they have, then they are as fortunate as they can be.

I have always detested the hybridization of the larger parrots, while I tend to overlook the hybridization of all other animals. I guess the reason is that most animals being hybrid (dogs for instance) number in the millions and are found in great numbers all over the world, while parrots on the other hand are quite often rare or have relatively low numbers. For every parrot that's a cross of two others... is one less parrot for that species. To me, it's the same as killing a parrot... not hatching a new one.

It's one thing to accidentally breed two different birds (but not likely unless you're a total dope) and have to deal with the result.. and it's quite another to do it on purpose just to get your grubby mits on another almighty dollar.

I feel sorry for the mixes because they are very, very special due to their circumstances, and extra care and understanding is appropriate.. but they will always have a sort of "bastard child" aura to them in the real aviculture world.

To answer LindaK's about the Eyering, Peachface Love bird cross breeding. For some reason the birds are not able to breed. Many attempts have been made but the eggs are always infertile. Having bred both types and exhibited Peachface even the judges know that this particular cross produces mules and highly discourage any kind of hybirdization between any birds. As I have said before greed is the reaseon it is done by lowlife breeders looking to make a buck.

IMO it's flat out WRONG for Breeders to do this. While it does occasionally happen in the Wild (especially with Macaws)it is wrong. It's important for GOOD breeders to keep the gene pool as pure as possible.

This brings me to another issue that I have seen. it is also important to let Parrots select their mate & not just be forced into a cage for breeding. I have heard many horror storys when this was attempted. Amazons are especially picky when choosing a mate.

Just adding my 2 pennys!

Hi Guys ... Im new here, so i dont want to tread on anyones toes. However , here goes..

My Charlie is a hybrid between a major and a galah. He is bigger than both and has the nicer trates of both species (cheecky like a major and cuddly like a galah) and is the picture of health.

Firstly i would like to state that i am against hybridisation in general terms - however charlie was a happy accident, from a mixed avery. There were five babies, and i dont thinks it has happened since.

Where i live (on the mid north coast of NSW) we have galahs, correllas and sulpher cresteds flying around freely. (also black cockies - quite spectacular!) In nature its not uncommen for the galah and correla to cross - producing the same sunset orange colouring that charlie has, but shaped like a corella.

There is also an Albino black cockatoo around here too. Although he hasnt been seen for a while i hope he hasnt been trapped!

So whats my point .. it does happen in nature sometimes, and we have them flying around where i live (although they are a rare sight) However for breeders to cross species that clearly dont arnt in the same family(ie a budgie and a bourke) is wrong and produces weak, sick birds.

Cheers
Emu

Hi Emu!
Welcome to the board from another Aussie!
As you are probably aware, here in Australia at the moment it is becoming more common to see hybrid birds for sale. Are they the same price as a pure - no way! Are they advertised as rare or uncommon - you bet!
Please read my post above for my personal opinion on hybrids.
Love your Charlie for who he is but please don't kid yourself that it was an accident, accidents can happen (sexual bonding & egg laying)but any eggs can be removed or destroyed (blown),so the decision to let them hatch was a choice.
They do cross in nature, I have seen hybrids here also between RB2s & BE2s BUT it is NOT common at all. I have never seen a MM2 hybrid in the wild BUT I have been seeing them more & more at bird stores.

Eva.......

Is crossing a blue budgie with a green budgie cross breeding? This happens all the time and thats where there are so many color patterns. SO would this type of breeding make hybirds? Is that type of breeding bad? More of a questions but about same topic..

No Ronnie, that is not a hybrid that is just trying to come up w/ color mutations as done w/ 'tiels and LB. Take Cockatoos their genus is all Cacatuidae that is what they all have in common but than they split into different species probisciger aterrimus, calyptorhynchus magnificus, callocephalon fimbriatum, etc. Well some of those than split off into what is sub-species (like the different Sulfer Crests). A hybrid comes from crossing 2 different species or sub-species. This link will explain it better than me http://sprout.phpwebhosting.com/~feistyhome/hybrids.htm