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#51728 - 09/07/05 06:02 PM Pluck No More  
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Louie's_Mom Offline
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I know alot of people are using this with great results. I would like to know if there are any studies on longterm effects on the birds. The list of ingredients reads like a murder/torture movie. Here are most of the ingredients.

Aconitum Napelius - Wolf's bane, monksbane. Psychioactive, hallucinogenic, TOXIC.

Apis Mellifica - Honey bee. ground up, including venom. TOXIC.

Arnica Montana - Leopard's bane, Mountain Tobacco. primary effect on ingestion is stomach swelling and internal bleeding. Causes low-grade inflammation in the body. TOXIC.

Arsenicum Album - Arsenic. Buuilds up in body slowly, causing illness and death. TOXIC.

Belladonna - Nightshade. narcotic, diuretic, sedative, antispasmodic mydriatic. Seeds of this plant - no apparent effects on birds, all other parts TOXIC. Hope they only used the seeds.

Ignatia Amara - Strychnine. Rat poison. TOXIC.

Symphytum Officinale - Blackwort, Comfrey. BANNED in most countries for being dangerous. Contains half a dozen alkaloids known to cause long-term accumulative, non-reversible liver damage. Damage will usually not be found until increased liver activity, such as giving birth. Comfrey has also shown to be carcinogenic in laboratory rodents. TOXIC.

Bellis Perennis - English Daisy

Byronia Alba - Wild Hops

Calendula Officinalis - marigold.

Chammomilla - Chammomile

Cistus Canadensis - haven't been able to find yet, will update if I do.

Clematis Erecta - Virgin's Bower, causes similar effects as poison oak poison ivy.

Ferrum Canadensis - doesn't actually exist, but I believe it refers to Sanguinaria Canadensis, or bloodroot. A flesh-eating plant used by natives to treat things like ringworm and warts. TOXIC.

Ferrum Phosphorum - Iron Phosphate. A pesticide used to kill slugs and snails. Not usually harmful except to it's target.

Histaminum - At least a dozen things with this word in the name? Which one did they use?

Hypericum Perforatum - St John's Wort. Has been used to help with depression but studies show no improvements with severe cases.

Impatins Glandulifera Flos - Himalayan Balsam. Diuretic.

Ornithogalum Umvellatum - Sleepydick. Poisonous plant known to harm grazing livestock.

Passiflora Incarnata - passion flower.

Prunus Cerasifera Flos - Purple leaf plum or cherry plum

Rhus - Poison Oak

Toxicodendron - Poison Ivy

Veratrum Album - Hellebore. Poisoning uncommon, but has several alkaloids that could cause accumulative liver damage.

I do not know what ppm they use for each dose. But quite a few of these things build up slowly in the body over time, causing illness and death. It may take years. I would be very interested in seeing long-term studies on this product. I will not be using it.

#51729 - 09/07/05 06:10 PM Re: Pluck No More  
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bubbles Offline
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england
The list doesnt sound good...do they actually test this stuff before putting it on the market? I wonder what the results are, I certainly wont be using it!

#51730 - 09/07/05 06:13 PM Re: Pluck No More  
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Louie's_Mom Offline
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My guess is that the toxicity is low, probably wouldn't see any adverse affects for 10 yrs or more. That's why I would like to see long-term studies. I feel that plucking/mutilating is a psychological thing, and instead of medicating, the problem should be resolved from the source. Of course, I know medication is necessary at times , but at what risk?

#51731 - 09/07/05 06:29 PM Re: Pluck No More  
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bubbles Offline
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england
Its like a lot of medicines they use for people they are tested but years later they take them off the market because they have caused death. I dont think they test them long term.
One of the mutilators I foster was on anti-depressants, anti-psycotics and seditives when he came here .... he has been weaned off. And today I found out that they may have caused brain damage, but it may have been a birth defect along with never being able to fly. We will never know because we cant trace his first owner to ask what he was like.
I hate putting birds on medication and my vet wont entertain it as he thinks its all to do with these birds being hand reared. All of my rescued too's pluck/ mutilate and they are all factory farmed hand reared birds that dont know what they are. frown

#51732 - 09/07/05 07:15 PM Re: Pluck No More  
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Riley Offline
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These ingrediants may take years before side effects show up if any. What is the life expectancy of a mutilator/ plucker that keeps on doing it?

#51733 - 09/07/05 07:22 PM Re: Pluck No More  
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Louie's_Mom Offline
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That is a good question, and one I don't know the answer to. I know Louie is a former plucker, and although he has nice feathers now, I am very careful to keep him occupied so he doesn't revert. He still could, but I try to head that off. I don't think I could knowingly give him something that was toxic and could cause liver damage, even if it is mild. Maybe someone who does rescue will come by this thread and will know the life expectancy of a plucker/mutilator.

I don't believe testing is required for homeopathic products, as they are not always approved by the FDA. If it is NOT FDA approved, it has to state such on the package.

#51734 - 09/07/05 10:20 PM Re: Pluck No More  
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nanis mom Offline
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NJ
Scary stuff...I actually considered this for my Grey cheek who is a seasonal plucker. His feathers always come back, so it is not worth the risk.

#51735 - 09/07/05 10:20 PM Re: Pluck No More  
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Johnnie Offline
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NJ
I have to agree with you Tdoll, there is no way I am putting this on my birds. There are too many products on the market claiming to perform miracles only to be pulled from the shelf a few yrs down the road. I don't want any of my birds to be a statistic. I say if people want to use it WELL do so but I won't put my birds in harms way. I think I could love the bird with or without feathers and I am not willing to take the chance with something I loveand that trust me to care for it.

Johnnie

#51736 - 09/08/05 02:42 AM Re: Pluck No More  
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flowerchild Offline
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isn't this product supposed to only be used for short term 3-6 months? i have been watching the results on this board, and am impressed, but also concerned about long term effects. i am assuming that with so many ingredients the ppm must be very low.

#51737 - 09/08/05 09:01 PM Re: Pluck No More  
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Casper MSC Offline
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If this is a homeopathic product, keep in mind that in extremely low doses the dose cures what ever the plant would cause. Take Rhus. Ingested in minute quanties (6 ppm or 30 ppm) it will cure poison oak not cause it. Every year I have to take Rhus Tox because I get poision oak or ivy very badly. The family joke is all I do is walk past some and I get it. The Remedy is accually good for you. I used to take steroids every summer to get rid of the poision ivy. But it got to the point it was taking longer and longer every summer to get rid of the bumps. I started using the Rhus Tox and this summer I did not even get it. And we have been building horse fence on our new place. I only take it when I break out in bumps. I do not take it all the time.

But I got to tell you - reading the list you wrote up it sounds really bad. Is it a real homeopathic medication?

Sherrel

#51738 - 09/08/05 10:26 PM Re: Pluck No More  
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Louie's_Mom Offline
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It is billed as homeopathic. I have no doubt that the doses are very low. But some of the ingredients even in very low doses cannot be good. Strychnine? Comfrey? And what if the bird's liver is already compromised, even if it doesn't show up in vet tests, doesn't mean it can't be there. Just not a risk I would take. I think this product is meant for pluckers, not so much mutilators. I honestly believe pluckers do so for a rason, and finding the reason wold go alot better to solving the problem than medication. I realize there are exceptions to every rule. Not all can be redirected. I guess it's up to the individual as to whether they choose to use this product. I did not make this post to tyr to make people stop using or avoid using. That is up to the individual. Just be informed as to what is in there.

#51739 - 09/08/05 11:24 PM Re: Pluck No More  
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flowerchild Offline
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louie's mom,
we appreciate that. i am very skeptical of manufacturers claims. over 20 yrs in birds and i've never seen anything you can spray on them that actually works, bitter apple, etc..
however, as casperlsc said, low doses of sometimes toxic substances is how many hoeopathic remedies work. i'm watching closely the results members here are getting, and vets opinions,etc. joey plucks because of stress- her vet and i are sure of that. she was fully feathered and i moved her cage-she started again. my sister's dog frightened her, she started again. stress is the cause-how could it not be with 3 homes in 6 yrs? but i am curious as so many members birds are doing so well, and trying to keep an open mind. herbs beat drugs mostof the time. let us know how your birds are doing and what vet tests ae showing, please!

#51740 - 09/10/05 02:26 AM Re: Pluck No More  
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KatsToo Offline
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I just had to make a comment. I recently did a pet sit for a Goffin Cockatoo that was on this product and it had shown no results. Doesn't this go in the water? My avian vet feels that vitamins in the water aren't very effective because they don't drink enough water for it to be effective.
For my own Goffin and her plucking, the first time she plucked I got her on vitamins in her water and it worked. But when we took her off the vitamins she started plucking again and the vitamins didn't work the second time around. A few months ago, I started giving my birds (although at first it was mostly for the cockatoo) Beak Appetit which the 'Too really likes. Its really easy to make and fast, you can fix it in the container in the microwave and I like to add veggies to it. Mila's feathers have almost completely come back in and she's doing much better. I don't know if this product has been discussed here or not but I have had alot of success with it. Also, on the container they have a story about an African Grey that had been rehabilitated on the food. Just thought I'd throw that suggestion out for you. It really helped my cockatoo. (and the other birds like it too)

#51741 - 09/10/05 03:22 AM Re: Pluck No More  
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OzznMe Offline
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IN
I use this on my b&g macaw and his feathers are coming back great. I do not put it in his water because I think they need a clean water source for health and because I did not know what some of the ingrediants were. I do spray him with it everyday though.


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