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#46304 - 11/06/04 04:04 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Nikki's Mom Offline
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I think the thing that got everyone is putting the bird down statement and I must say it got to me to but on the other hand I want to think you for the wake up call we all can get a little relaxed at time with the birds and it got me to thinking about Thinksgiving we are going to see our daughters and our 3 yr old grandson is a daredevil (The birds are going) so I call her to talk about were we can put them when we are doing something and though the safest place would be in the master bedroom and lock the door don't want to take any chance Nikkie love kids but I can never trust her not to get to rough

#46305 - 11/06/04 04:38 PM Re: What would you do?  
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After reading 3Toos post from Sept. you can tell they really do care (at least he does) about their feathered kids, but also that they were headed into trouble w/the kids.

It is a shame the inevitable happened. I just hope the Mrs. doesn't take it out on the birds.

With another M-2 coming into our lives (Morgan) I have been voraciously reading thru this site. I think we were spoiled w/Sam, so I have been relaying everything I've been reading to my husband, so he'll know what to expect. He trusted Sam implicitly, so I keep warning him that Morgan IS NOT Sam and to watch body language. We've only had him a month now.

Before we got Morgan, but knew we would have another M-2 soon, he would make comments like: "If he bites, that'll be the last thing he does"--DON'T WORRY, it was in jest, but he doesn't say that anymore, knowing that if he gets "nailed" at some point, it'll be his own fault! Sammy never bit in the 8 yrs. we had him

My hubbie is Morgan's favorite person and he feels very honored. He's been reading on his own now, on top of letting me relay this board to him.

I don't think either one of us realized how lucky we were w/Sammy, but thanks to all of you we now know what to expect with Morgan. Maybe we'll luck out a 2nd time and breeze thru the upcoming sexual maturity w/no problem, but if we don't, no big deal. We'll just work through it-hopefull w/out too much bloodshed smile

#46306 - 11/07/04 08:09 AM Re: What would you do?  
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The dog and cat vs too wasn't a good example.

Toos are WILD, and we keep them in cages, that is THEIR HOUSE.

Dogs are domesticated, they are kept in OUR homes with us and our children and OUR HOUSE IS THIER HOUSE.

In this house they (usually) roam as they please, sometimes when we're not home, almost always unsupervised. WHEN WOULD WE LET A TOO DO THIS?

Dogs are capable of killing an adult, yet will never ever hurt their owners that they love untill one day... Something happens and they bite a child on the face... A too will probably bite their owners (that they also love), a couple times a day/week/month/year/decade because they act upon their intincts as wild animals.

We expect a too to bite, we expect a dog not to.

When that dog bites we know a door has been opened, and that they then pose a constant possibly fatal risk from that point forward. When a too bites (especially since they're wild, not domesticated) it COULD pose a risk of variable significance from that point forward (a risk that has always been there) depending on what we do.

Dogs that bite a child get put down because they can kill. Birds arn't because we keep them in cages and take them out when we please. If they bite we can (god forbid) lock them up for the rest of their lives, or (preferably) lessen the risk of them biting again. Dogs wouldn't be put down for biting if they were kept in cages like toos.

Most people would never cage a dog they way a too is caged. Dogs are domesticated but they can and may kill, which is why they're put down should they begin to show aggressie behaviour. They're put down because it would be socially unacceptable to keep them caged for the rest of their lives incase they bite again.

We know a too will bite any second, we expect it, accept it as their nature. So we cage them (for their own protection as well as ours) and watch our backs and the backs of our children constantly (but this is not the only reason they're caged).

You can't compare dogs or cats to toos in this instance, they are too different.

A mistake was made, it should be accepted that a mistake was made, and care should be taken not to let the same thing happen again. Thats it.

P.S. When a person gets bitten by a too it is NEVER the birds fault.

#46307 - 11/07/04 06:49 PM Re: What would you do?  
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First time post, long time reader. The sub-topic of domestication has made it very interesting. I have always had some issue with the arguement that because toos are wild they should not be kept as pets. Well, at some time past so were dogs, cats, horses, chickens etc.

Domestication is a process that parrallels evolution in that it has a start, but no end. The way that dogs and cats have become so intimately entwined with our lives illustrates this. Domestication is also fluid laterally, the importance (favour) of species and breeds changing over time as human society has evolved. This comment on society is important. Because it is society (and its needs) that was/is the omnipresent force behind the domestication of species.

The original purpose of keeping animals was for strictly selfish reasons: food, protection, labour, etc. This is obvious. More importantly, it also seemed to satisfy a human need at some deeper level to have interspecific relationships/companioship. As modern society advances, this need is becoming the dominant, and often sole reason, for having companion animals. This is because domestication is a two-way road. For all the changes we, through the process, caused to animals; equal and sometimes more profound changes have occurred to us.

Obviously, some animals have shown to be more suited for domestication, in terms of how human society has evolved. I am, of course, referring to dogs and cats. Having said that, if one was to list all of the animals that have become domesticated - how many of them are given the same freedom as our dogs and cats are. Hardly any. This is because it is necessary to restrict an animal to its needs. So, the arguement that we would not keep a dog in a cage is true; just like we would not allow a horse in our livingroom (well most of us).

As alluded to earlier, domestication by its process changes a species physiological and most importantly behavioural hard-wiring. Think of any domesticated animal and compare it to how its wild cousins behave. However, for all these changes, domestication does not eliminate the core instincts of an animal - it only suppresses them. The reference to a dog-gone-bad in an earlier post is a good example of how residing inside of Fido is a reflection of the original beast. But, a dog that bites is more of a threat than a too, a horse or even a cat that bites. This is because of the status that dogs have with us.

Again, it is necessary to come back to the point: because toos are wild they should not be kept as pets. Actually the reverse is true. This is the only way that they will (over time) ever become domesticated, and as such, the behaviours that are problems today will be eliminated. To further illustrated this point: if one were to bring a dog or cat from the historical time-point that toos are at now, to present day; I am sure that the animal(s) would be very different from the present day version. The dogs back then were hard-wired differently from the dogs and cats of present day. How can I make this conclusion? Because...instead of dog or cat, bring a person time-forward(we are talking about several thousand years ago)and imagine the difficulty they would have adapting.

Finally, I would like to say that I am fully aware of this boards philosphy and I agree with the intention; I just do no think it will happen. The basic characteristics of toos address some primal need of people that will ensure that they will be around for a long time. Having said that, it is the responsibility of a too owner (and any companion animal owner) to ensure that the best housing, dietary and socialization conditions are given. I do not own a too.

PS: many of my spelling errors can be contributed to the fact I am Canadian, and how we do things a bit differently up here.

david

#46308 - 11/07/04 07:03 PM Re: What would you do?  
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dlereus,

The process of domestication consists of the selective breeding of animals for desired traits. The desired traits in this case are those that make the animal more suited for interaction with people. One primary trait is for the animal to be docile (non aggressive).

The breeding of parrots is not selective. It is simply done for profit. In many cases the birds that are chosen as breeders are those that do not make good pets. In this case we have a selective breeding that produces the opposite desired result.

#46309 - 11/07/04 10:54 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Jewel,

Look at some of my previous posts and you'll see that I say I get bit on a daily basis. Some say that isn't normal but I would expect to be at least nipped if I played with a tiger, even one raised by me from birth. Therefore my little story about the snake. It is in their nature to bite when bothered, when they feel threatened, or just because that is what they do.

As for this incident, and re-homing, we are talking about a toddler being bit. If the parents fear for their children, due to their birds, they don't need to have birds around. It is that simple. Why put the birds, parents, and kids through it. The better alternative is to move the birds to a non-threatening environment.

I am going through something similar with a U2. My wife is the subject of bites for no apparent reason. She feels threatned and I would re-home the bird if she asked me. Who wants to live under threat? In my case, my wife understands the nature of the bird and she wants to work through it.

As for the lady's first inclination to put the bird down, she didn't.

Aloha,

Cub

#46310 - 11/07/04 10:59 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Tora,

Excellent post. I can't even imagine putting it better!

Aloha,

Cub

#46311 - 11/07/04 11:22 PM Re: What would you do?  
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dear cub

sorry if i sounded curt

however the issue was her put down remarked which she a 2 week period since the bite and she still made the comment and instead of retracting she tried to justify her comments

and we are talking about someone who " we thought new better ) as for domestication etc etc that is all a tangent to get away from the orginal statement ..

all birds bite provolk and non provolked so the bird was not at fault the parents and kid were but who is getting the brunt of thier anger ??

the defenseless animal ..locked in a cage unable to escape the toddlers little fingers which look like peanuts i know what a mtoo can do jazz was most likely playing to ruff

jewel

#46312 - 11/08/04 12:52 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Okay,

I feel that I have to step in here again. The reason why I quit posting is because what you say will be held against you here and you will be flogged so I just wanted to see what people had to say.

I would have changed my original post if I knew how to do it. My husband has since told me how to do that. I have since changed some of my posts due to Stupidity..

Yes, my reaction was quick. This still upsets me greatly as we had a wonderful relationship with the birds and the kids and now it has changed. We really wanted to include everyone in the family unit and thought that the kids and the birds would be able to interact. Wrong...

After discussion with my husband we feel that we will rehome Jazz if it comes to that. We have had a wonderful offer from a lady here on the island. With Jazz in the other room it is working well and the kids are safer now. I would love nothing more than to bring her back into the front room with us, but until the kids are older she is going to have to stay in the dining room.

David's finger is healing amazingly well. I didn't think that it would do as well as it has done.

We may have been long time members. The last time we read any of the information was, oh, about 3 years ago. You saw what my husband posted and I am surprised that no one gave him a reminder that these are "wild animals". We got complacent and David paid for that. It just goes to show you that sometimes us "oldies" need a reminder as well.

I hope that by posting this that others are reminded that kids and birds can't interact, at least until they are older.

You may now continue to flog me. I'm still reading..

Mrs. 3Toos


Some days it's chaos around here!
and I would not have it any other way.
#46313 - 11/08/04 01:44 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Thank you Mrs. 3toos for looking into other options for Jazz. I'm also glad to read that David is healing well; kids are amazing in that respect. (I just got an e-mail from a friend whose 4-year old broke both bones in her forearm while playing in some kind of bouncy-tube. She only had to have her cast on for 3 weeks!!)

#46314 - 11/08/04 05:38 PM Re: What would you do?  
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I am really glad your son is healing well. I know how bad it hurts us when one of our kids is hurt. Little children are so resiliant that it's amazing. Good luck to you all.

#46315 - 11/08/04 08:15 PM Re: What would you do?  

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Mr/Mrs Too,
I have read the replies resulting from your post asking for opinions. I might add, you got what you wished for..lol
I know that you feel guilty about David experiencing a bite and a decision to rehome is in the works, but please rethink this decision.
I would like to add that I have a 3 1/2 yr old who is respectful of bird's beaks, and what they can do. I mention this because I feel that a rehome of Jazz might lead to hurt feelings all around. I still think that a solution here is eliminating the possibility of any future bites. The ideas that have been presented to you are very positive and creative. I particularly like the idea of a tile base going around the cage so that little fingers can't wander within the bird's space. Also, your decision to put the cage in the diningroom is excellent.
I know that in a perfect world this would not have happened. But, it did and now you must deal with the consequences which you have/and are doing.
Let's face it, a few months being out of the main room is not going to harm the bird's psyche. Yet, to your kids - their maturity level will increase greatly in that time period.
What you need to do in my opinion- (and you asked-us) is to keep the bird but move the cage away from the kids (I have 6 kids-so I know how they can be). Build/buy a high perch, locate it in the main room so your bird can be on it while you are there to observe -kids and bird.
When you are not there - simply put your bird back in its cage.
I have done this in my own home and the safety aspect is working well.- My birds are in their cages when no one is around to supervise-them/and kids/. Yet, when someone of maturity is in the room- my birds come in with us - socialize with us at a high perch level or on our laps- far from kids'fingers/toes. Our birds are not sad at all- in fact, I think they like to going back to a cage -with PEACE AND QUIET from the chatter of little ones- (who are louder than the birds at times).
One thing I might caution about, is to secure the perch to the wall so that small children cannot pull it over on themselves.
I hope this helps.
In the end. your bird will continue to grow- yet, never mature like your children will.
Yes, you can have both sides of the coin on this one.
Just some thoughts from another concerned mom,
Susan

#46316 - 11/09/04 06:47 AM Re: What would you do?  
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thanks for the good ideas Susan. Much appreciated.
Mrs. 3toos


Some days it's chaos around here!
and I would not have it any other way.
#46317 - 11/09/04 03:20 PM Re: What would you do?  

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Mrs. 3toos
thanks for your comments.
My husband made our perch with Logan (3yrs) helping. All the while, Phil kept telling Logan that "we are making this perch so that you won't get bitten by the birds".- This statement stuck in Logan's mind-he totally understands the concept of why the birds are sometimes on the perch(which they LOVE).
Our perch is made out of an apple tree branch, which is screwed into a base that is larger than the widest branch- to catch all droppings.
Logan loves this perch idea because now he can have the fun of putting food on the tray- and watch the birds (from afar) climb down to grab their waiting treats. Plus, this allows the birds to be in the living room with us- and yet, safe from the over inquisitive mind and fingers of a 3yr old.
The perch is placed on top of our old piano so that it is high enough so Logan can't get within reach of our LSC.& CAG. The only time he can reach this perch is when we pick him up to place the treats. I must add, that Logan loves this new game of "please pick me up" and we are building arm muscles along the way. <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" />
There are so many different perch designs to choose from. Some are made to sit on tables while some perch stands sit on the floor yet the perch itself is 5ft high.
One more thing, *-from one mom to another-* kids go to sleep early!... which provides "alone time" for both of you and your birds.
Have fun either searching the web for perches- tackling this project with the twins.
Any questions regarding making perches please email me at susanbwells_@hotmail.com
Susan
ps. my birds don't feel punished when they go to their cages- in the other room... far away from the fracus of tv's noise- and general mayhem associated to children's play. As I mentioned in my previous post- their cage in a quiet room- is heaven to them. wink -they love their quiet time.

#46318 - 11/09/04 06:37 PM Re: What would you do?  

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I am happy to hear that your son's finger is healing well. So happy also to hear that you are working things through with Jazz. Hopefully this will work out and you will all be able to cohabitate together peacefully. Susan gave some wonderful suggestions that sound like they could really work in your situation. I would also suggest that you take precaution with all your birds and not just Jazz. Unfortunately all birds do bite eventually, so this could become an issue with your other birds as well. It is obvious that you and your husband love your birds very much and I hope that this all works out for you and your family. If not, I am happy to hear that you would be willing to find a good home for Jazz. Good luck and I wish you all the best.

#46319 - 11/13/04 07:53 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Geez folks. She didn't ask if you agree with her first inclination she asked what you would do. There is no sense in beating the crap out of her for being honest. Most of us wouldn't have dared to utter that thought on this board even if it was knee jerk.

Here here!

#46320 - 12/12/04 05:53 PM Re: What would you do?  
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HERES MY 2 CENTS - FOR WHAT ITS WORTH
we have also had the situation where our U2 has sent my partner to the casulty ward for stiches twice. would i ever get rid of the bird - if there was a real problem that it may become the norm YES - but put the bird down - NO unfortunelty we keep forgetting that as much as they are a part of our lives they are also and will always be (deep down) wild animals and they will do what comes nuturally.
As with everthing (and unfortunetly you and your family) have had to learn the hard and scary way that even our most loyal and favoured pets can turn on us (how may times do we hear of dog attacks). What you really need to do - and i see it has been mentioned is to educate - don"t blame anyone - the reaction was instinct. What you now need to do is learn for the experience and (as a good friend of mine always says) build a bridge and get over it - which is what i trust you will be able to do. I will take time for everyone concerned but if you really want it to happen it will.
Good luck and keep posting
colin

#46321 - 12/12/04 07:08 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Have the bird put down? Yeah, so i don't have any kids yet, but I agree with everyone who said that the bird is a wild animal. Although my bird Gucci, a BE2 can be lovey-dovey at one point, the next minute he may be attacking my ear or biting through my nail. But thats a bird for you. Thats why I'm the only one who really looks after the bird. Like all living things, whether its a lovely cocker spaniel who's never bitten anything in her life and is scared of squirrels, or a cat, or a hamster, or a bunny, or a hedgehog, or a cockatiel, all living things bite someone in their life. Under no circumastances should the bird be put down. If my bird went down to the floor and was to absorbed in a nut to see the cat or dog charging at it and had gotten eaten, would i have my two furry companions put down? No, of course not. They didn't know any better. Well neither did your bird. Hasn't anyone ever anoyed you to the point of you slapping them? Well thats what happened. Imagine if every person who slapped someone else was put down. Well, all i can say is that then the world would be a much better place for our avian and furry companions.

#46322 - 12/12/04 08:58 PM Re: What would you do?  
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I have a LSC2 who is 4, we have had her for about 4 months and after about a week or so of having her she was sitting with me and my son happy as anything and the next minute she had my sons finger in her beak, she left 2 cuts and if I hadn't managed to get her off him i think it would probably have taken the full pad off one of his fingers. I never thought of having Kylie put down but basically we have learned from our mistakes. I think you were obviously very shocked and worried when you wrote your post and being a mam myself I know that you sometimes need someone who might be able to give you some advise. I think you should get things back to normal and speak to the kids again, if he or she is anything like my son they will probably not want to go near the cage again let alone play with the lock on it. There again all kids are different. All I'm saying is, we all have to learn from our mistakes, every time you tell kids not to do something they have to try it, I suppose if your twins aren't old enough to understand you would have to keep them away or even rehome the birds. I have nephews and friends kids who come and they all know Kylie could bite at anytime so I tell them never to let their guard down at anytime and thank goodness they have never been caught. But basically if they want to take the risk stroking her its their risk and their parents know the situation too.

#46323 - 02/28/07 01:04 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Bumping forward so it doesnt drop off....

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