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#46284 - 11/05/04 04:52 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Robert Barta Offline
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3toos - glad to hear that you will be working hard for your pets as well as your children. There has been some good advice posted here about how to barrier the cage from the kids and work through the next 10 or so years. It will be tough, I have my own tough problems I am working through with my M2. They can bring you up, they can break you down. To get more of the former and less of the latter rests in your decision to better the situation. Good luck to you and your family.

If there is another incident that causes you to change your mind about that, I think people here would be reassured if you would post that you would try to re-home your Too, even if your (current) plan is to keep the bird and work through the problems.

#46285 - 11/05/04 05:18 PM Re: What would you do?  
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3toos Offline
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This post is from 3Toos himself.

Well, quite the discussion, much as I figured it would be if she posted about this subject.

Blson, you are sure quick to stereo type me, and you know nothing of me. You do not know that the wife works full time, and I care for the kids when she is at work both night time as well as two day shifts per week. I do not simply skulk off to work and ignore happenings at home hoping that she will resolve whatever happens during the day. How dare you make that presumption. I suppose ignorance is bliss.

This incident is very serious, however lets look at the facts.

The bird was locked in her cage in the living room, in full access of the children, the bird was not happy to be "in her home" instead of "on top of her home" The child was playing with the birds lock on her home, the bird bit the childs finger, the child required 8 stitches in his finger.

I was outside working on my sail race boat, the wife was in the kitchen preparing lunch.The kids were playing in the living room.

I am the one who had to take the child to ER. I am the one who had to hold and comfort the child for 2 hours while we waited for a doctor. I am the one who had to hold the child while he recieved 8 stiches, I am the one who watched the wife faint from watching this occur.

Was I angry? Yes. Was I upset? Yes. Did I have any thoughts of a knee jerk reaction to the situation? Yes. Did I do anything immediately? No. Did I immediately lay blame? No. It could have easily happened when I was watching the kids.

What did we do in the end? We moved the bird cage 25 feet away from her original spot into the dining room with the other toos and our TAG. We then put up child gates to prevent the children from being able to enter the room. The birds are still able to interact with us just as before. The birds can view almost the entire top floor of the house from on top of her own home. The dining room is right beside the kitchen and the living room, they are not missing out on anything that there were able to see or hear before. Except now the kids cannot get to them on their own.

I did not let the children interact on their own with the large birds any more that I would let them play with kitchen knives or hang around the stove. You never intentionally let this happen.

As I explained to my wife, he could have just as easily cut himself on a knife, he is at the stage where he can reach up onto counters and will enevitably get into things he should not.

What if he had cut himself on a knife? Would we have to get rid of every knife in the house? And then what about those sharp forks? And that dangerous hot stove with all the boiling hot pots? We could always just eat out at Mcdonalds everyday and then we would not even need a dangerous kitchen! And don't you dare say that dogs are any less dangerous, I have seen many children with bites from "friendly" dogs ranging from Pit bulls to poodles. If an animal is alive, it has the ability to react on its own in whatever manner it may choose, DESPITE the thought that you "think" you know how it will react.

Children have been hurt by animals as long as there have been children and animals. Have you ever known anyone that lives on a farm? Those places are dangerous for children, cows, ducks, bulls, pigs, horses, chickens. Any one of them has the potential to harm a child, but people who live on farms still insist on having children. Why?

My little brother, whom my son is named after, was killed by his horse. A very "friendly and predictable" horse that he had owned for quite a while. It happened on a trail ride, the horse got spooked by a snake and it reacted by rolling over. He was put head first into the ground and died of brain damage. I held his hand while they disconnected him from life support, I held his hand while he took his last breaths and died, my own little brother! I truly know just how dangerous animals can be. Perhaps more than some people.

But what about the stairs in our house? Someday he is going to fall down them. Then what? Get rid of the stairs? Cars are even more dangerous, bicycles are as well. And lets not even talk about how dangerous sailboats are! We have had the kids out sailing since they were very tiny, and I am sure one of them will get injured sometime doing that as well.

Yes, keeping wild birds can be very dangerous, much more than an average home. But we had the birds long before having the kids. So, we just have to find some way to balance this out.

Kids get into things, it is our job as parents to make sure that they are safe and we protect them from most any foreseeable hazard or situation. As the kids get older, it may or may not get easier. Sure your teenager will be safer around your home, but how do you KNOW FOR SURE that they are not getting in a car that is street racing, or with someone drinking and driving or about to get hit by someone that is???????

You never know, you try to do your best and minimize the risks while maintaining a balance.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, I don't know everything there is to know, I am still learning. But I am trying to do the best that I can. That is all one can ask.

3Toos.


Some days it's chaos around here!
and I would not have it any other way.
#46286 - 11/05/04 05:39 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Robert Barta Offline
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Mr 3toos - Private Message sent, click on your profile to read it please.

#46287 - 11/05/04 06:46 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Mr and Mrs 3toos: I think the comment that caused the gut reaction in all of us was about putting the bird down. I held my children for stitches in the emergency room. I sat through a lecture from the pediatrician when my child was severly burned by a curling iron and I sat through hours of surgery on my youngest daughter. I know the pain and guilt involved when accidents happen and I feel for both of you for what your child and you had to endure. If I could have taken on any pain my children have felt, I would have. But the bird does not deserve to be put down because of this incident. It wasn't the birds fault. If blame needs to be attached, it is our duty as parents to do the best we can to keep them from harm. What if your other child was the one to greatly injure his or her sibling? Whose fault is it then? I just don't want to see the bird put down for being a bird.

#46288 - 11/05/04 06:57 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Mr. Too3
I agree with you and I hope you convinced your wife that things happen when humans have animals. It not the animal's fault. The only reason to put an animal down is when there is pain and suffering and nothing else can be done. I love all of my animals dearly and if I were unable to care for them I would find someone who could, putting them down is not the solution.
Vicki

#46289 - 11/05/04 07:22 PM Re: What would you do?  
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3toos Offline
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Edited Due to stupidity...

Sad as it is, I do not think that our birds are our children. there has to be limits placed somewhere.

I have taken your thoughs and words into consideration. Thanks to those who have given me some ideas on how to work this out. The birds are still here and maybe we will rehome them if it calls for it in the future.

That's all I have to say on this issue. You may all bicker between yourselves now.

Mrs. 3toos


Some days it's chaos around here!
and I would not have it any other way.
#46290 - 11/05/04 08:05 PM Re: What would you do?  
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angry Is it just me or is it like talking to a brick wall here?

I don't pretend to be an authority on birds or animals or kids- they don't come with an easy users guide or an instruction manual, but I do know that comparing birds and dogs is not like comparing apples and ornages- not that dogs or cats are lesser- just different. Pits acutally are not mean dogs- they are bred to be that way and then mishandling can bring out some of these inbred traits. Sometimes these animals are beyond resuce and are a 'danger to society' meaning mauling someone to death- I hardly think any bird short of a casuary is capable of doing that.

You got a dose of reality in your home- if you want to continue being Mrs. know-it-all and take offense to the boards resoponse to YOUR post soliciting such responses ( I mean how did you think we would react to the suggestion of euthanasia?)- so be it. I am just thankful that the seed is planted- as you know from being a member of this community- that euthanasia is not your last resort. There is always someone out there willing to take on 'your problems and issue' point and case- the responses you have received here on the board.

I beg you earnestly- to rehome the bird(s) if it doesn't work out- but hope beyond hope that you can work things out with the suggestions and support (which may feel more like an attack) you have received here.Also- listen to your husband- he's got it right.

I will not pretend to be a marriage counselor but I am concerned this is all comming from a place of dissention between you and your husband and the bird is the target of your frustratuon. In that vein I am concerned for your marriage and wish you all the best in finding balance there so that the struggle is not misdirected on the children or other household occupants.

#46291 - 11/05/04 08:13 PM Re: What would you do?  

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IMHO... When we were asked what would we do? It was a complete farse. No one asks what we would do and then absolutley shuts down everything except what they wanted to hear. Nothing changed from the point from where it started. The demise of Jazz, the rest of the flock and the cat will hopefully be up to Mr.3toos. That's if he remains wise to us women's manipulative ways. cool

Personally, I am glad that this thread is in existance and a big THANK YOU to Mrs 3toos is deserved... because there are many people who will be able to take the information and actually objectively learn from it and their families... children, birds and CATS alike will be that much closer to a balanced life.

-Stryker-

#46292 - 11/05/04 08:30 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Pit bulls regularly kill people, usually after tearing all the skin off their heads. Cats are not known for attacking people. If they do bite, it's usually in self defense. I have never heard of a companion bird killing anyone. You somehow seem to feel that any tiny incident involving an animal gives you the right to murder the animal. If you think a few stitches in a finger is sufficient to give you the right to murder an animal, then I feel sorry for your family. Kids get hurt. It's what they do. Believe me, there will be far worse injuries than a few stitches in a finger. Everything your husband mentioned about the hazards of the world everywhere one turns is true. The fact your son was in a situation where he could have been bitten is strictly YOUR (and your husband's) responsibility, not the bird's. (Oh, I forgot, no one knows what responsibility is any more.) Remember, the BIRD was LOCKED UP. And you have blown a minor incident way way out of proportion. Kids need to learn that there are consequences for every action. They need to learn it when they are kids, NOT WHEN THEY'RE 35. Because if you plan to wait until they're 35, they probably won't live that long.

#46293 - 11/05/04 08:47 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Jo Ann Offline
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It seems mr. has a different view to all this then his Mrs. Hopefully he is the one who makes whatever choice is made about the birds in that family as he seems to be the level minded person and realizes things happen there are dangers all around and a child can get hurt in the home be it by the family pet or household hazards. About dogs and cats they are totaly a different storey first off a cat cant kill a person they bite and scratch a dog can yes and yes I agree to putting down a visious dog but a cat or a bird???? That is just troubling to me. ALL animals have the potential to bite Take the proper measures to insure your kids are out of harms way with all things god it is your responsiblity to insure they are safe and taught what is safe and not safe starting from a young age. This may sound totally way off and out there but for another example..... you have twins, if your twin was to bite or hit you're other twin over the head to cause stitches, does that give you the right to put the twin in the wrongto sleep for hurting the other ??? I DONT THINK SO... so where is is right for a person to put a bird to sleep after a minor bite which it did outta instinct, which is why it did it... it was in IT"S cage locked up and your child invaided its space by bothering with it's territory angry

#46294 - 11/05/04 08:57 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Well said, Jo Ann. I can't even COUNT the number of stitches I have had as a result of my older brother regularly trying to kill me. If bald heads for women ever become the fashion, I'm in trouble - my scalp looks like a road map.

#46295 - 11/05/04 09:34 PM Re: What would you do?  
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hehe JoJo I was beaten by my brother many of times to, I was trying to put a different perspective to this about putting animals to sleep for something they do as instinct , just as a small child will bite or hit outta instinct when young. If you have two little kids playing and one takes a toy or touches something that is thier possession and means alot to them thier instinct would be to either snatch it away, hit the other child or Bite which most small kids go thru. My point was extreme and ofcourse would never be an option or could be done to a child for biting or hurting another. Yet what is the difference here really? The child invaided the birds territory it didnt like it or was scared and did what is a normal reaction with a wild animal there is no difference really, you wouldnt give your kid away or put it to sleep for defending what is his be it right or wrong!

#46296 - 11/05/04 09:42 PM Re: What would you do?  
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Thank you Mr. 3toos; may your wisdom and common sense serve you and your loved ones well in the years to come. I'm confident you understand how foolish it would be to put down a beloved companion when others have offered to help with an alternative solution. Please don't take the offers lightly - even mine. There are people here who can tell you I DO follow through when I say I will do something. I am VERY sorry for your past experience and the pain you must still feel about your brother. I think if I were in your shoes, the very mention of euthanasia would be salt in a wound that never quite heals. Take care -

#46297 - 11/05/04 11:28 PM Re: What would you do?  
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I have read this thread up one side and down the other and I am still at a loss.
I am a mother, grandmother and now a great-grand mother and I have never waivered in my love and protection for any of those children, but I NEVER expected any of the animals in their life to understand that "these are little children".
Maybe I'm outa line here, but the only responsible parties in this entire situation are the adults in charge of both the children and birds!!!!!
I asked in a thread once before and I again ask???
"Why do they ask questions, if they don't intend to listen to the answers??? confused
Oh, by the way, I have a 14 year old Moluccan who has lived in my family all his life and he has never bit me,,,but he would love nothing better than a child sandwich,,but I don't let kids near "Howie". eek

#46298 - 11/05/04 11:30 PM Re: What would you do?  
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I agree with everything that the hubby is saying, except for the statement about passing our "problem" to someone else. As a person who now has 12 rescue birds in our home I have taken in alot of other peoples' "problems" and so far things have worked out fine. We have rehabed and rehomed 14 smaller birds. We don't have children so that's never been an issue.

Prime example, a B&G we picked up in GA last week was supposed to be a "Mans" bird, tell that to GypsyRose, who feels she has to be on me all of the time.

Sometimes a bird that is a "problem" in one home, ends up being an absolute doll in another. You just can't tell what will happen, but I would re-home all my birds before I ever considered the option of putting it down. I have heard the arguement about putting down a dog for biting, and I feel the biggest difference between that and putting a bird down, it the intelligence levels of each of the animals. My birds learn and react so much different than my dogs.

However, there are alot of people who will take in an "aggressive" dog and can re habilitate them alot of the time. It's an old arguement and no easier answer to it.

I personally would always look for the alternative solution. Any animal could be a potential problem in one home, but not the same problem for another home. As to Jazzy not being able to adjust to another home easily, I doubt that any any adjust easily, but most seem to do fine, most of the ones I have had here, have had issues, and most of them are doing fine in my home and other homes. No it's not perfect, but I can't stand the idea that we kill an animal without looking first.

I am glad that you moved Jazzy to another room, but am very worried what happens next year when the twins are big enough to go over the baby gate and it happens again. Just praying that you will at least consider looking into another home, before putting him down.

I think that you are doing the right thing now, and that you truely love your pets and children. I guess I am a die hard softy and can't stand the idea of any animal being put down unless it is in dire pain and stress. To me you put down an animal to "save" it from further pain, not to save yourself from pain.

Tammy

#46299 - 11/06/04 02:50 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Geez folks. She didn't ask if you agree with her first inclination she asked what you would do. There is no sense in beating the crap out of her for being honest. Most of us wouldn't have dared to utter that thought on this board even if it was knee jerk.

Here is what I would have done, in order:

If it were a simple accident and not a vicious unprovoked attack, which it doesn't seem to be, I would spend time training the kids not to put hands near cages and then I would move the bird to a Kid-Safe place (which you did).

If it were an unprovoked attack, I would re-home the bird.

Have you ever heard the story about the animal (fox maybe) who gave the snake a ride across the river on his back? The snake promised not to bite the fox but he did once he got across the river. When the fox asked "why did you bite me" the snake said "you knew I was a snake and that is just my nature".

See how easy that was :-)

Aloha,

Cub

#46300 - 11/06/04 03:26 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Oh my - what a lot of posts!

What happened to 3Toos son is sad indeed, and I do understand the gut reaction, and am glad that nothing happened to Jazz except that she has been banished to another room - where I hope she will continue to receive Mr and Mrs attention and love. Please understand that she is being punished for being a bird by being moved, and will need additional time and love and understanding because she doesn't know or understand that she did anything that was wrong -or what we consider wrong.

I'm hoping that even at 18 months, the young man was talked to about what happened, and the dangers of being around the bird cage. I know he certainly didn't ask for it, but unfortunately things happen.

It really doesn't matter if it is a bird, dog or cat. I have seen my own dogs snap at the kids for bothering them when they didn't want to be bothered. I have had cats that strike out for no reason that was apparent to me either. Lover Boy (M2) many times will be playing with hubby one minute and snap at him the next for no reason we understand . What Jazz decided was not acceptable, or a threat or whatever, we won't know.

I have a 2 1/2 y/o grandaughter living with us, and we do not allow her in the bird room without one of us with her, and she isn't allowed to touch the birds. She loves them, and spends lots of time going from cage to cage, but we don't allow her to touch them. It is just too much of a risk. I'm sure that this was just a really bad accident, and now that precautions have been taken to protect Jazz (and the children), that it won't happen again. I am also sincerly hoping, that the boy will get past this with the help of his parents, and that Mrs 3 toos will find it in her heart to understand and resume her relationship Jazz. It isn't a matter of forgiving, because Jazz was only being a bird, and did nothing wrong (by bird standards) Jazz really didn't do anything that isn't totally expected from a bird. (sad but true)

Hoping all the raw emotions, and fingers and birds feelings heal without long term effects.

I would say however, that putting Jazz down for being a bird is obviously the wrong thing to do. You would not be passing your problems off on other people, you would simply be rehoming a bird that you felt unable to keep any longer. don't ever lose sight of that, no matter what. And, be assured, that you can and will find a good home for Jazz should that decision be made. There are many dedicated Cockatoo owners out there who would take Jazz to prevent having her put down for being a bird. (I honestly don't mean that in a rude way )

Best of luck in your family healing.

#46301 - 11/06/04 03:43 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Sometimes giving great advice is just like spitting in the wind!

#46302 - 11/06/04 03:49 AM Re: What would you do?  
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dear cub

so the bird acts like a bird to a person that supposably ( SP ) BEEN A MYTOOS MEMBER FOR AWHILE and knows better

well rehoming a BIRD THAT BITES hummmmmmmmmmmm wouldn't they all be rehomed ?? even finches try to bite they all bite at one time or anouther even the sweetest well mannered birds bite .. i can not be the only ethical person in the bird biz ?? they all freaken bite at one time or anouther

the issue is she mentioned " putting the bird down" period the end all this fluff is not addressing the real issue she wants to put the bird down for her own irresponsibilities which i would like to add is par for the course .it was an accident nothing more but death was her first choose ?? is there more to there story ??

WE may never know

jewel

#46303 - 11/06/04 04:06 AM Re: What would you do?  

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The balance that is being sought out starts with knowledge/education of the birds (which being around here has and should help tremendously since that is the purpose), responsible parenting and established boundries/rules.

In looking for the rest of the story... This is what I was referencing from just over a month ago, posted by 3toos:

Quote:
posted September 14, 2004 07:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I have a question, what have been your experiences with kids that are born into a house with Cockatoos and how the kids and birds relate as they are growing up.

As most of you know, our twin children were born into our house with 3 mature cockatoos and a TAG. Now that the kids are getting to be older (they are almost 20 months now) they are starting to really interact with the birds.

The kids seem to have their favorites, our son really loves both of our LSC2's. David is able to hand feed both of them, and they come down to the lowest perch in their houses to get treats from him.

Both my LSC2 (Kopa) and our M2 actually play on the floor with the kids, taking turns chasing one another from the living room, through the computer room and into the kitchen, over and over again.

The kids seem to regard the birds as being "equal" to them, and they know that the birds have their meals at the same time, and that they have the same snacks at the same time. They know that they have to share time, food and our attention with them.

Two of Emily's first words were the names of my two birds.

They all spend time together on the couch watching Elmo, and it is rather humourous to see them all enthralled by Sesame Street in the mornings.

Of course, this is all supervised, but fully interactive as non of our birds are in their cages except when we are out.

I know for certain that even now, our kids do not miss seeing even a single crow or seagull. They wave and yell "bye bye" to all birds that pass by, so they must already make a connection with "their" birds and wild birds.

As for the birds, they all watch the kids all day, talk to them as they pass by and even go to sit with them on the couch to watch a show. They know that they can go and get a snack from the kids tray when they are watching a show, or even get the kids to share what they have in their hands.

So far, there have been no serious bites, although the kids have received a good nip once or twice when they cross the line (David dropped a can on our LSC2). That was about 3 months ago, and it seems that they have come a long way now in their kid/bird relationship. They seem to have forged some sort of understanding and relationship. There are no issues of pecking order, perhaps that was all established previously.

What have you encountered with kids and cockatoos growing up together? What can we look forward to? Our kids already think that it is "normal" to have talking chickens in the family, what will happen as they go play at other kids houses and find out that not everybody has cockatoos?

I really look forward to hearing what you may have experienced.
I feel really bad that I didn't speak up then when Pete was sincerely asking for our experiences then.

-Stryker-

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