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#46264 - 11/05/04 12:50 AM Re: What would you do?  
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I would also be interested in hearing Mr. 3toos opinion about all of this...

Lynne


If you must cripple a creature
to keep it, perhaps you should
reconsider its suitability as a pet.
#46265 - 11/05/04 12:53 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Three toos and two children!!!I have 1 too and he can never be trusted with ANYONE, young or old. These creatures are wild animals and we can never predict their behavior. I am constantly on guard. Please consider rehoming your flock. It will make for a more comfortable, less stressful situation. I just reread your post...even one too seems to be an accident waiting to happen. Yes many will reply that they have kids and toos and all is well etc..before an accident occurs again, please begin the process of rehoming.

#46266 - 11/05/04 01:20 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Peter recently posted....

Quote:
Birds again? Yes, Twins again? Definately not.

Cockatoos again? Probably, another M2? Not sure about that. Would I ever have another amazon as we originally started out with, Absolutely, just for the fun factor.

But one thing is for certain. If you ever really want to know what it is like to be loved unconditionally, fall in love with a cockatoo that has fallen in love with you.
This doesn't sound like a man that will allow anything bad to happen to Jazz... confused

#46267 - 11/05/04 01:36 AM Re: What would you do?  
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I just had to jump in here. This is a tragedy for the entire family. I can understand the intense feelings a mother has to protect her children. There is no stronger urge in the human female - some males too but not as strong (IMHO). This bird in particular and the the flock in general has enjoyed an awesome relationship with the children - with the family. Therein lays a small part of the tragedy.

I understand why Mom is not willing to take any more chances. I understand that in a split second things happen. We as humans don't have the ability to be hyper-vigilant 24/7. Anyone who claims that they are thus probably has OCD. smile

Time can heal the fear and the wound. However, no one should be forced to endure that if it is intolerable. However, having said that, I must also say that Jazz deserves a better chance than to be arbitrarily euthanized. I have been bitten many times by my toos. I am not a child and my finger are a bit tougher. I have birds that have incredible baggage, horrible pasts, that have found happiness (or at least a facsimile) and sanctuary. I am glad they and I were given that chance.

This whole thing is really no one's (person or bird) fault. Just a combination of misfortunate circumstances. Guilt and blame will not solve the situation. smile

#46268 - 11/05/04 01:55 AM Re: What would you do?  
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to quote stryker:

What gives you the right to decide to put Jazz down? Is this because you have spent the last 4 years with her after her terrible life before you and you are the only person qualified to continue to provide a good life for her? Is it because you "OWN" her? Is it because you LOVE her so much that you couldn't bear to think she is somewhere else loving someone else? Is she a trophy for you? Do you have a powerful sense of being knowing you can just go have her put down?

Dear Stryker:

I don't "own" her. she is not our "trophy". We are not the only people "qualified" to provide a home for her. The decision to put her down was not one that I considered lightly.

Everyone has seemed to overlook the fact that she is still in our home and seperated from our children now. It is because my husband loves her so much that she is still here. We are not going to rehome our birds, we are going to to keep trying to make this work.

I am surprised that there are no parents here except for yourself Stryker, daring to even speak up. My son is 21 months old. No matter how many times I say no, he persists. I am glad that things worked out well for your children as I hope this will work out for ours.


Some days it's chaos around here!
and I would not have it any other way.
#46269 - 11/05/04 02:01 AM Re: What would you do?  
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First, let me say that I'm sorry your son was injured and I hope he is feeling better.

As the mom of 4 kids, I understand how you feel and the frustration you must be experiencing. However, your response to this incident really upsets me.

A few years ago, we were trying to rehab a very ill tempered U2 and we were working with an avian behaviorist who insisted we ignore biting of any kind. During the 8 months we had Tucker, my children were never injured by him but hubby and I made WEEKLY trips to the emergency room for the very serious bites he gave us.

The situation came to a head when, the last time I was bitten and facing surgery from the bite, I was taken aside by the folks in the ER and informed that since we were adults, dumb enough to let this happen over and over, they could do nothing but continue to treat us. They then informed us that should one of our children show up with a Too bite, they would be compelled to call CPS for the same reasons they have to report pit bull bites. I did some investigating and learned that this information was correct and not only could we potentially lose our kids but our birds too.

That was our wakeup call. With heavy hearts, we made the decision to rehome Tucker and although I still feel terrible about it, I know it was the only real option at the time. At NO point ever, did we consider putting the bird down. Never, ever, ever!

The reason I am sharing my story is because I believe you are setting yourself up for a situation similar to mine. Your children are going to become more inquisitive as they grow, and unless you take matters into hand immediately, one of the kids WILL be bitten again.

If you have lost trust in Jazz and have already banished her to another room, what does that say about Jazz’s future quality of life? Toos are extremely perceptive and if you are feeling fear, mistrust or anger towards her, she knows it and may acquire one of the many destructive behaviors known to be set off by emotional issues. While your son only has a boo boo on his finger (this time), I would be far more concerned about the confusion and sadness that Jazz may feel in her heart.

This is just my opinion but I truly believe that you have some soul searching to do.

Can you quickly implement something like Michael’s suggestion for lining the bottom part of Jazz’s cage, (maybe even do it half way up) and then move her back where she is accustomed to?

Can you say to yourself that you are still every bit as committed to Jazz as you were before the bite?

Do you really, in your heart of hearts, believe that your bird is better off secluded or dead, rather than rehomed?

Your children deserve to be safe just as Jazz deserves to be treated with the best care possible. Sometimes, especially with very young children in the house, both things can’t be done at the same time and done properly.

edited to add:

Quote:
The decision to put her down was not one that I considered lightly.
The bite was a week and a half ago. It sounds like the decision came pretty quickly to me.

#46270 - 11/05/04 02:22 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Um.... I find it hard to believe that a thought like putting the bird down and then asking for the board members feedback and putting that out there- was something that was given much consideration- it seems to me an emotional knee jerk response and understandable to a point, but the fact that you are defending it as something you gave ample consideration to just leaves me baffled.

I don't think you need to beat yourself up for the accident- but I do thing that you need to own up as the responsible party here and keep making the effort to make things work and prevent another occurance.

Sometimes, unfortunately, the best lessons learned are learned the hard way. In your case- no real harm done- just accept it for what it is- an accident- and move on.

I am glad you are going keep making an effort to keep the balance and make things work out- but if it doesn't- do the right thing- place the bird in another home.

#46271 - 11/05/04 02:30 AM Re: What would you do?  

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I am a parent of 4 biological kids and 2 step kids ranging from the ages of 6 to 24. I got my M2 when my youngest was 4. While luck may be somewhat of a factor, my diligence in keeping an ever watchful eye over by youngest and my bird has resulted in only a minor bite. Echo is just 1 1/2 so we are not dealing with a mature cockatoo yet. So, as a parent I am speaking out...if I had a similar situation happen, putting Echo down would NEVER, EVER enter my mind. So my position, as both a bird owner and a parent to you is feeling as you do, you need to rehome this bird. Janet

#46272 - 11/05/04 02:40 AM Re: What would you do?  
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While there are some valid concerns raised by Mikki, I think that may be interjecting just a bit too much hype into things. This was a bite on the finger given by a bird in a cage. It appears that steps have been taken to reduce the risk of it happening again.

I think multiple trips to the ER for bird bites may have been something for the people in the ER to talk about. We have dealt with a formerly abused, severely phobic BITER of a bird (our GW) and never had any trips to the ER. That wasn't a case of luck.

I live with a flighted M2 who relentlessly and viciously comes after me trying to take chunks out of me. It's a daily/constant thing. She's 7yo and since her hellish hormonal behavior started 4 years ago I've had ONE trip to a plastic surgeon for a few stitches.

I don't know how you managed to get so many bites that were bad enough to take multiple trips to the ER. I just can't imagine that bird being any worse than our GW was when we got him. We were told he would NEVER be able to be handled by quite a few people. It turned out much different than people speculated, but he was absolutely horrible when we got him! I do agree that Mikki & family made the right decision for THEM.

In any case, I don't think it's fair to inject that kind of fear into this situation. It was a nipped finger on a small child. Measures have been taken. I seriously doubt the 3toos household will be losing any of their pets or children via CPS.

Lynne


If you must cripple a creature
to keep it, perhaps you should
reconsider its suitability as a pet.
#46273 - 11/05/04 02:51 AM Re: What would you do?  

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3toos...

I think you are missing my point. I think it is great that you are not rehoming Jazz and that you are willing to do some things to prevent the children from getting hurt again... IF those things to not take away from what you have already set as standard for Jazz. My point was that IF there is another incident, as you stated, you said that having her put down was what you would do and that rehoming was not an option.

Also, I am very aware of the challenges of a 21 month old (three times over), however, my point there was that I would have done and did differently by knowing and respecting animal's capabilities and would have never allowed the children to think that it was ok to interact with them in ANY situation, supervised or not.

Look at it like a bird. If you allow the bird to sit on your shoulder, then it bites you on the face, then it is hard to retrain. But if you teach it not to sit on your shoulder from the start, you reduce the chances of your face getting nailed.

-Stryker-

#46274 - 11/05/04 02:53 AM Re: What would you do?  
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I could never consider euthanizing my bird, but my wife and I are older and no small children in the home. I feel like HB, it was an accident and accidents happen. It really was your fault but a lesson was learned and you can move on. Only you can make the decision to rehome Jazz. I hope you will let things die down and reconsider everything before you make a decision. I would wish the best for you, Peter and Jazz. Bites happen!

#46275 - 11/05/04 03:39 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Lynne,

I see what you are saying and while I probably could have done with less hype in my post, the point I was making was that there isn’t an “if” with getting bitten, it’s always “when”. The biggest question is who gets bit next.

I do believe that when small children are involved, a dose of fear is not necessarily a bad thing. I don’t know what the laws are where 3toos lives and it is entirely possible that “when” the next bite occurs, if it involves one of her kids, she could get into a potentially ugly situation. In my state, when injury occurs via an exotic animal, they regard it as a dangerous attack, regardless of the circumstances. I’m not saying I agree with that, it’s just how it is.

Our U2 who bit, could be handled and frequently was, as was directed by our behaviorist. In fact he was a sweetie (albeit a bit psycho). The problem was that every darn time he did bite, he went right to the bone and even once CRUSHED a knuckle. Fortunately, most of the bites were on our hands and arms but unfortunately, they all required some form of medical care.

I was not advising that 3toos should rehome Jazz. What I wanted to do is make it clear that keeping her children safe and keeping the bird in the best possible environment might be very difficult. If laying out the worst possible scenario gives her something to think about, then she can only work down from there.

#46276 - 11/05/04 03:58 AM Re: What would you do?  
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I only read the first post and no others. The question was:
Quote:
What would you have done? I'm just curious...
I would have done the same thing as if I had a Lion as a pet. It's just that simple. I have tried to tell people for many years that you CANNOT trust these birds. I cannot understand why people think they CAN... especially around small children. When people finally realize that these (let me say it for the 1000th time) are WILD animals.. not to be trusted, maybe people will finally stop getting hurt.

As far as putting the bird down: How ridiculous. angry

#46277 - 11/05/04 04:59 AM Re: What would you do?  
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I rarely post but I'm adding my perspective which I think may be a bit different - I was a child raised with a cockatoo in the home.

Yes, my mother, ConnieS had a rescued, quite unpredictable T2 for years before I was born. And we had him until the day he died. When I was an infant, I was kept away from the bird. The bird still enjoyed all of the same things he did before I was born, but we just didn't interact. I was taught from the time I was old enough to understand that the bird was to be left alone. I would be punished if I went anywhere near the too's cage without one of my parents. I would be punished if I teased, prodded, or in any way upset the bird. I was taught that if I got bit, it was MY fault because I knew that the bird was off limits. By that same token, I would know not to ever mess with the bird again. It taught me personal responsibility at a really young age. I was never bitten. There was a very healthy respect between that bird, and me. I still remember him to this day.

I don't think any of this is Jazz's fault. She was defending HER home. I would defend my home too, were someone fiddling with my doorlocks. I think if anything, this is a lesson to all parties involved. Everyone needs to take responsibility for their part in what happened, both your son and yourself.

#46278 - 11/05/04 06:11 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Quote:
I was going to put her down the next day but Peter talked me out of it. One more incident and that's it.
Quote:
As much as they are a part of our family, they are only birds.
Quote:
It is because my husband loves her so much that she is still here.
Thank Heavens for your Husband!
I am a mother too, and as much as I would be devastated if one of my birds bit my baby, I would own up as it would be my fault as it is yours, and I would not even consider putting them down.

Quote:
Jazz would have never rehomed well as she has had a difficult life and that is why she would have been put down.
You are not the only one qualified to take care of a bird with issues.

#46279 - 11/05/04 06:26 AM Re: What would you do?  
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A love triangle is a love triangle weather it be human, human, human or human, human, bird. They also don't last and don't work. Seems like the MAN needs to step up to the plate and either make some major provisions for his child's safety or re-home the bird. I can't blame the mom for her vent post as this mom is being a real mom and no mom can be on 24/7 duty with eyes on child. We moms have to clean, cook, use the toilet and it is not possible to 100% prevent a bird - child interaction. I think it's time that the husband/father/man takes charge and provides the safest environment for both child and bird or responsibly re-homes. If mom isn't dedicated to birds or if mom doesn't like birds and he knows this and then they have a baby something needs to go and I doubt he will give his child to CPS for adoption. Large birds and small children don't mix. The ED should have called CPS. If it were a pit bull or any dog for that matter they would have and are required to in my area. Why should a bird bite that requires surgery (stitches are surgery) be any different?
The MAN needs to make some decisons about his child, bird, home and wife. Seems as usual, the wife/mother/woman is left with the decision making and will be perceived as horrible no matter what she thinks or doesn't think or do or doesnt' do. If she keeps the too and makes major provisions for safety she is a bad mom because the chance is still there for future injury to child. If she responsibly re-homes the too she is bad as she is putting yet another bird into the "system". If she does nothing she is a bad mom because she doesn't care one way or the other. But DAD, he can just leave for work everyday and blame everything on Mom that goes on. Moms are not perfect. Moms don't have eyes in the back of their heads. Moms carry alot of weight and maybe she is just tired and really doesn't know what to think or do so she comes to this board and vents. She should be able to vent and ask what to do to her husband as it's his bird. He needs to learn that he can't have it all and expect his wife to be the everything to everyone. She sounds like a normal mother to me and it sounds like a vent post to me and it sounds like hubby lives in la la land. She asked what we thought and I think the bird should be responsibly re-homed and I think the ED should have called CPS. We preach that birds are not domesticated and they are wild animals living in captivity and are unpredicatable and we can't have it both ways either. If a parent keeps a wild animal in their home and it bites their child they are in trouble. Why should this be any different? To me when it comes to a bird's rights vs. a child's safety the child will win in my book anyday. 3toos wife,make your man re-home the bird and if he gives you any guff then YOU CALL CPS ON HIM !!!

#46280 - 11/05/04 07:02 AM Re: What would you do?  
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I am sorry for the accident with your little one! Please do not even have thoughts of putting it down, like you have heard over and over on this thread yes they are wild, just like a dog is a cat is a hamster is ect. They are all wild and all can bite.I have 2 too's and two young children, and yes both have been bittin by them to the point of bleeding and also bad bruising. But like others said you teach them NO, you teach them to not touch or go near. Kids at 21 mnths of age are not stupid and Yes they do understand when you tell them no danger, hot, ouchy! Its in how you teach them that they will understand, its the tone in your voice when you tell them of dangers. Now specially your one little one really should understand. Both my kids know not to touch my birds when I am not around and if they do they were told yes they may be bitten and guess whos fault it will be????? Thiers as they were told that they are wild and can bite even if one minute earlier the bird was all lovey and cuddly.They can not be trusted and it is up to us the adults to teach kids and others that they are wild and bite.About putting it down again like another said what if it was your child who hurt the bird instead would you think to put your child down? No I don't think so, so why even think to put the bird down when it was only doing what is natural to it? hugss to your family and your son I am sure lessons were learned from this and it won't happen again
Joann

#46281 - 11/05/04 07:08 AM Re: What would you do?  
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Quote:
, but God thought otherwise;
Did God also tell you to "put down the bird?" It seems to me if that's what God wanted, He's quite capable of bringing Jazz "home to Him" peacefully without your intervention. I reiterate: you and your husband need to have some serious discussion! If you are saddled with an unfair load of responsibility (and yes I DO know exactly how that feels), that has got to change. If you do something to "his" bird, do you understand what that's going to do to the trust in your marital relationship? Please, think to the future and all the possible scenarios when that trust is lost, for the sake of all the members of your family. I myself was rehomed sixteen times not too long after birth, so I have a pretty good idea what goes on in families. I also have a pretty good idea of what hell on earth is like; it's a "right to life" I wish to God I had never had to endure. So, if you need to rehome Jazz, and no-one in Canada can help, I'm offering to get the CITES permits, pay for vet certifications and quarantine, and come get her myself. I can promise Jazz would get unconditional care and love at the level she wants it, when she wants it.

#46282 - 11/05/04 07:26 AM Re: What would you do?  
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blson -
Ouch, my head hurts after reading that last big rant.

I would like to see a post from Mr. 3toos because all we have to go on is what Mrs. has to say.

Someone posting here for advice or opinions is probably only giving one side of the story, as is natural. In most cases it is person vs. bird but this time, I think we might eventually get another voice into the mix. Mr. 3toos…are you out there?

Yes, we women usually (but by NO means all of us) get stuck with child rearing, house keeping, bird care and more things than many give us credit for but good grief, it isn’t that dang hard. If we didn’t want to do it, we wouldn’t. To stick it to Mr. 3toos in such an ugly way is uncalled for.

The simple fact is: there is a family who has both children and birds, who just experienced an accident. NO matter what we feel personally, the issue, via the agenda of this board, is to educate people on the best way to deal with cockatoos and such problems. Attacking the 3toos family may make you feel better, but it isn’t helping anyone.

#46283 - 11/05/04 04:16 PM Re: What would you do?  
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