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#13887 - 01/22/05 04:18 AM Re: training videos. any good?  
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GideonsMom Offline
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Quote:

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True vegan vegetarians are those that do not eat any animal products or artificial supplements
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I am not a vegan, nor even a vegetarian, so I am not clear on the philosophy, but to my understanding , a true vegan believes that they can get everything their body needs without relying on animal products or artificial supplements. Apparently, they can, it just takes very careful planning with a specialized nutritionist and a strong sense of mind over matter, I reckon. Unfortunately, I am not very learned on the details as this was a sidenote in one of my Animal Nutrition classes, but there are true vegans who do participate in this activity.
I'm sorry, you are very misinformed. I have been a vegan for more than a decade and had two vegan pregnancies. Additionally I have been active on vegan messageboards and in vegan organizations.

Vegans generally believe: 1) Human desire for animal products does not outweigh animals' interest in living good, long lives; and/or 2) Plant-based diets are healthier for humans than animal-based diets. There is not, as you claim, a belief that the body can get everything it needs without supplements.

Vitamin B-12 is only produced by bacteria. Some of these bacteria live in the human GI tract, and there is an ongoing debate about whether the B-12 they produce is naturally re-absorbed by the body. B-12 is also found in nutritional yeast and some algae, and there are many vegans who use these sources exclusively for their B-12 needs; however, most vegans will take an artificial, bacteria-derived supplement. Never have I heard of a vegan engaging in coprophagy for B-12, and I've certainly never heard it officially advocated. There is no vegan prohibition against ingesting "artificial" supplements of non-animal origin, especially since many vegans are concerned about the effect soil depletion has had on the food supply.

Every time I have blood drawn for any reason, I get my B-12 levels checked. (This happens on the order of about once a year.) Even after pregnancy, birth, and 2.5 years of lactation, my B-12's been fine.

Incidentally, some birds show a high capacity to figure out the "why" of things. Take the tool-building crows, or Alex the grey parrot, who is indeed learning to read--and who figured out how to put letters together to spell "nut" all on his own.

#13888 - 01/22/05 05:17 AM Re: training videos. any good?  
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Charlie Offline
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Thank you for that clarification, GM. I was having a hard time figuring out why human excrement was not an animal product!

#13889 - 01/22/05 12:16 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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corkytoo Offline
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england, uk
happy 30th birthday roka <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" />

#13890 - 01/22/05 03:40 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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Marv Offline
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for many yrs i've been in the electrical field and i've met alot about people with electrical engineering degrees and have never been in the field to apply any of thier degree to a job they have designed in return they remind me they have a degree and i remind them that an rectal thermometer has a degree . also then i ask them if they know the differrence between the 2 thermometers and 9 times out of 10 they ask what is the differrence is LOL what im trying to say is that you can read and educate your self and this is great for every body but hands on experince. you can read alll you want about birds and other animals and educate your self which i think is great but from experince you will find out not all will apply to your pet cya -Marv

#13891 - 01/22/05 07:04 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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Thanks Gideon's mom for the clarification on B12.

#13892 - 01/22/05 07:54 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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that's what i said to hypersnowman thanks marv

#13893 - 01/22/05 08:08 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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Thanks Newtoo, Mum and stepfather are visiting so we will all go out for dinner tomorrow night. Roka has started to become quiet and reserved around others so I think we might need a bit more socialisation. Harness time I think!

#13894 - 01/22/05 08:27 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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corkytoo Offline
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did you say you had a german sheperd as well roka?

#13895 - 01/22/05 11:10 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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Yep Newtoo, We have a Shepherd, Lab and three cats (not anywhere near Roka). We are animal people these are our children.

#13896 - 01/23/05 12:26 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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corkytoo Offline
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we've got a 7 month old german sheperd and a 7 year old grumpy cat. he lives in my daughters room. never seen corky cos he refuses to come out near the dog!! i think the dog and corky must be rubbing off on each other cos they're both being absolute asses at the minute. reeaallyy bad. any training tips for either roka?

#13897 - 01/23/05 11:57 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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HanktheTank Offline
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Gideon's Mom

I said certain vegan vegetarians...not all. I also said that I was not clear on the philosophy, but "from my understanding...." I did not mean to offend. I do happen to know of some true vegan vegetarians that refuse to supplement their diet in order to obtain their essential vitamins and nutrients, and the only way to obtain vitamin B12 other than from other animals is getting it from yourself in this manner, as you said, B12 is found in the gastrointestinal tract. For lack for more non-intrusive terminology, I see these people as the "hard-core" vegans....the ones, as I have said previously, that refuse to take artificial supplements.

Again, it was not my intention to offend, but in this situation, I actually do know what I am talking about and I do know of people who have chosen this route following consultation with a specialized nutritionist. I apologize if I did not make that clear earlier, and it was not my intent to drag the vegan doctrine through the mud.

tex

#13898 - 01/24/05 12:11 AM Re: training videos. any good?  
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HanktheTank Offline
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Dan

I do follow what you are saying, but I don't think humans can reasonably make that assumption that parrots don't understand the "whys" as you describe them. Our brains don't work the same way. We will never know how they think. Similarly, just as you claim they may never know the why's of our actions, we will never know the why's of theirs. How is that at all related to intelligence?

My underlying point is that the test you describe for determining IQ may work well for humans, but lacks integrity across all other species. By your definition, yes, indeed birds have a low IQ, but the test cannot be generalized to any other species beside humans, so how does that make it an effective diagnostic tool? I guess then, how do we define intelligence, or is it a trait solely inherent to humans? Can we ever possibly know the answer to that question without getting inside another organism's brain? This argument runs a similar course as the question of whether animals experience emotions. The problem in establishing a definitive answer lies in delineating instinct from emotion. It seems almost anything that animals do scientists can strip down to the animals' natural instinct. My question then is how do you define an emotion without instinct? What is Love? Is it an instinct or an emotion? Food for thought, maybe?

tex

#13899 - 01/24/05 07:44 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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Monine Offline
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Did this post get a little off track?

I thought the question was about the tape Trick Training by Chet Womack. I did purchase a membership and received his cd's and dvd's.
Any information that I can aquire that will assit my flock to live a better life is worth looking into.

When I first read his training methods, I walked away shaking my head thinking that it was crule,and I wasted money. Well, then another rescue came to me that needed some fast intervention. (bird was in attack and kill mode)
So out came the Trick training/clicker info again. Very interesting, he has some very humane training methods, (WATCH the tape, do not just read like I did, that is what turned me around)
I feel that by adopting some of his training ideas, helped Guido over his abuse syndrome, and on the way to a less stressful daily life.

The actual training of tricks is great, our feathered companions enjoy learning new things, love to be oohed, aahed over and really strut when you tell them how great they are.
Almost everything we do for them is already food oriented , so why not use this method to do something enjoyable for your bird?

So far, my flock thinks he is great, and are responding very well with his "training diet".

I would like other opinions, successes and failures. So far, we just pick and choose from the information provided and then adapt it to each need.

Monine

#13900 - 01/24/05 09:52 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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corkytoo Offline
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yes this thread got WAY off track. still it is useful to know :p thanks for the info on the videos. i have to admit the video clip i saw was pretty good. i just wanted some feedback. he has an email program as well. i might try that first to get a feel for it.

#13901 - 01/02/07 04:28 PM Re: training videos. any good?  
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I know that this is a late reply to this message, but I do have some information on Chet Womach. STAY AWAY FROM CHET WOMACH! He and his brother use birds for performances in magic shows and the like and tend to use "Flooding" and other tactics for quick training that are actually harmful to your bird. He also hides into the purchase of his tapes lifetime subscriptions to bird food that you will have absolutely no idea you are getting or expected to pay for.

All in all, Chet Womach is another scam artist looking to take advantage of bird owners for a quick buck. There are MUCH better options out there for anyone needing information or wanting to train their birds.

#13902 - 01/03/07 03:11 AM Re: training videos. any good?  
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I personnaly don't use clicker training but I've purchased Chet Womacks training videos. They have very useful ideas and are not cruel at all. In fact, I've used his ideas on my M2 & conure with good results. You can't analyze someone's training until you see it first.


Gail
#13903 - 01/03/07 03:38 AM Re: training videos. any good?  
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I have ordered and seen the videos. Please take the time to look up "Flooding" in regards to training animals. It is a very unhealthy technique. As soon as I found out that this is what Chet Womach training uses I sent it back (still haven't received a refund). I care more about my birds to use training techniques such as this. However, if you just want temporary results and care not about the health and future of your animals, then Chet would be just fine.

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