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#102958 - 02/08/05 02:06 AM Re: Think About It....  
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Julz Offline
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Amen Jerry I was trying to figure out a way to explain it!

Quote:
we don't work much with dogs here in holland on a farm, but our farms are a lot more diffirant than amarican farms
I don't know what you mean about farms not having dogs in Holland when I was there ALL the sheep farmers I saw used the border collies.... maybe I was smokin to much of the marijuana in Amsterdam (just kidding)! But I saw alot of dogs & cats on the farms in the countrysides of Holland! And I live in an area in Southern California where alot of the dairy farmers are dutch and except for all the new milking machines they run the dairies as their ancestors did in Holland! (I have a few close friends who are dutch and have dairies).

#102959 - 02/08/05 02:07 AM Re: Think About It....  
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Most wild animals in zoos are given the opportunity to hunt through enrichment activities. Though it seems even though they have not been taught to hunt they are still able to do it. Ever seen a rabbit, squirrel or bird enter an exhibit with an African Wild dog or a cheetah? Its amazing that no matter how large the exhibit the animal is still able to catch, kill and eat the intruder. I've seen Ground Hornbills catch chipmunks, red wolf catch birds in flight, polar bears catch starlings, cheetah catch sqirrel, wild dogs catch fowl. I believe that hunting is instinct along with being taught by parents. Iguanas are found through out central and south america at this time. So yes Montezuma would have had iguanas in his zoo. Considering the number of animals that have been pushed further south due to hunting and habitat destruction in this country I would be willing to bet that iguanas once were found wild in the US also. And yes Im well aware that spiders are aracnids not reptiles or even bugs.
Angie I agree with you I hope I go to a place that we haven't destroyed and tried to tame. Thats filled with all of the animals that I love so dearly and suround myself with on a daily basis. Nancy


Nancy & Cassie BE2
#102960 - 02/08/05 08:53 PM Re: Think About It....  
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Domestication of an animal is not just to remove the animal's instinct to attack people but also to remove the animal's instinct to not attack the other domesticated animals on the farm.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I do think your theorie is right, but that it only counts for farms.
I don't mix my bird with reptiles.."

Hey, you couldn't mix your birds together.

#102961 - 02/11/05 10:01 PM Re: Think About It....  
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The entire point is this: Just because we can keep birds alive in cages doesnt mean they are domesticated OR pets.

#102962 - 02/11/05 10:51 PM Re: Think About It....  
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I would hope that parrots never become domesticated...yes, our parrots that live in our homes have some behavioral differances than those that live in the wild...ONLY BECAUSE WE TEACH THESE ACTIONS TO THEM....but to domesticate an animal that should soar through the skies....that is wrong.
Angie

#102963 - 02/21/05 12:02 AM Re: Think About It....  
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I think that whatever the judgment is on keeping a parrot has to be looked in the context of what the pollution and environmental decay we are all living in. What do we have to look forward to?
To go to a Zoo to see parrots caged in a bigger cage (Where wealthier educated ivy league scientist can coexist and play with them?). Tribal societies had coexisted (e.g. Amazon, Congo, Lakota, Navajo, et.al.) with animals but never exploited them to the extent white man/woman has done it. Look what is happening all around us. A sad day for everyone. Crows, canadian geese and others birds are poisoned for population control (So the homeowners of McDonald Mansion are not bothered?. What about bears, wolves, deers,and quails? The rich man who can afford hunting still does it. THe exploitation of everyone.

#102964 - 02/21/05 12:05 AM Re: Think About It....  
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I forgot the educated wealthy person can go and travel all over where parrots are. What about the less priviledged? Do they have to be doomed to nothing? I believe everyone is intelligent and loving enough to take care of their parrot. You don't need to have a degree to be human, caring, and loving to everyone including birds. Of course, there are exceptions and that's when loving parrot like the people in this forum can be of help.

#102965 - 02/21/05 01:45 AM Re: Think About It....  
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Quote:
I forgot the educated wealthy american can go and travel all over where parrots are.
just an important note for you - many users of this board are not american

Quote:
I believe everyone is intelligent and loving enough to take care of their parrot.
How I envy you your naivete - I don't believe - I KNOW people don't care enough about people, animals, and even themselves.

Speaking specifically to parrots I have a new foster bird in my house a little lovebird- the truly incredibel thng to me is how well socialized, healthy and happy Kito is. Why does it shock me? because in my experience with birds to date he is the first bird that has come here from a loving caring home. Now I don't work in huge volume but over the past 2 years have placed about 40 birds ranging from budgies and finches through to m2s.

The lack of care I personally have seen - just in the past 2 years..includes (is not limited to) a ringneck plucked naked due to a berevaement 3 years prior, a m2 with an open oozing hole in his chest wall the size of the palm of my hand, a cockateil with 7 visible fractures due to severe and untreated calcium defecieny

Im delighted for you that your La La land exsists but the sad reality is for many birds, and many rescuers, it is more unusual to see the side of bird keeping that you portray then the miserable dark prisons of HELL so many birds are held prisoner in.

brody

#102966 - 02/21/05 02:48 AM Re: Think About It....  
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I would love to say that all people can love: animals, humans, etc. But VERY SADLY this is not so. Just take a look at some of the birds that people here on this list alone have rescued. I have a bird on my home page, named Forest. Take a look at him. His owners DID NOT BRING HIM TO A VET. They dumped him at a petshop. Yes, some can say "well, at least they brought him where he would ??? get help" That might not have been true had the person there not cared enough to call me.

We have people who can't love/treat humans in a kind manner, let alone animals.

We wouldn't have so many animals in need of homes if all people could love them. (I am not talking about animals/birds where the humans lives have changed and need to place the animals. Often they don't want to, they just can't at this point and time care for them)

doreen

#102967 - 02/21/05 03:25 PM Re: Think About It....  
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It comes back to how we view humans. I believe humans are good and can change. I agree in cases of neglect is better to move the parrot to a better place.

#102968 - 02/21/05 08:50 PM Re: Think About It....  
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"I forgot the educated wealthy person can go and travel all over where parrots are. What about the less priviledged? Do they have to be doomed to nothing?"

For alot of us, it's not about what's best for US, it's what's best for the birds. We are HERE FOR THE BIRDS. It is human selfishness that has landed flighted creatures in cages for the rest of their lives in the first place.

Also, I saw your post about giving breeders a break because most are in it for the love of birds. I suppose I will never understand how you could love something so much you want to doom hundreds or thousands of your loved ones to a life in cages knowing that many will be tossed around home to home and quite possibly neglected or abused. I would just love for someone to explain that kind of love to me and make sense about it someday frown

#102969 - 02/21/05 11:25 PM Re: Think About It....  
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I think there is always a balance, a middle way I really don't understand what is possible and birdly acceptable? You seemed dismay at my comments but I think parrots love people too. In the amazons there have been instances of macaws wanting to be friendly. Even in the forest you have heard of owls or birds calling for help. Bears the two legged though us how to find herbs. What about dolphins rescueing humans from sharks?
I know you are all upset what I say about some breeders but I have seen very caring ones and I will never forget I visited a vet in Frederick, MD she kept the parrots out in the extreme heat on metal cages. I just pray and hope there is enough love to save all of us (all beings) from hatred and misunderstanding. I talk from the heart and walk the red road, that's all.

#102970 - 02/22/05 02:16 AM Re: Think About It....  
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Hi birdheartsoul

I replied to your other post, and I honestly am not trying to judge or berate. I think that maybe you`re coming here without understanding that there is indeed a very strong motive on this board to discourage breeding. It`s quite clear on www.mytoos.com that there is no tolerance for it. You probably won`t find anyone here who will condone the pet trade, even though almost all of us have by-products of it.

I used to work in breeding facility. It was a `good` one. Our birds were well treated, loved and had great play facilities. I loved the birds there very much. But the owner went bankrupt because he wouldn`t sell to just anyone. So when it came down to it - these bird were just possessions. He had to `liquidate` his stock to pay his debts. His breeder birds ended up in much worse conditions, because he couldn`t play the breeder game. He was a devestated man and suffered greatly because of it. What I am trying to say is that if there is a middle line, it`s so fine that people can`t help falling off of it one way or another. My ex-boss went bankrupt and lost all of his birds. The other `good` breeders have to make concessions about who they will sell to, or they can`t make a living. So the birds end up in questionable homes, because the breeder has to feed his family.

I sympathize with what you are saying. I used to have a crow that lived in my backyard, after I helped him heal an injured wing. He was a great friend and I enjoyed his company very much. I like to think that he enjoyed my comany as well. But he was a wild animal and I never forgot that. By handfeeding baby birds, we take away that option to be returned to the wild and we instill on them our humanity and all of it`s cruelty.

#102971 - 02/22/05 11:24 PM Re: Think About It....  
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"By handfeeding baby birds, we take away that option to be returned to the wild and we instill on them our humanity and all of it`s cruelty. "

Very well said. And we also impose our ignorance. No matter how well meaning we may be, we really have no right (and unfortunately no choice now - other than) to keep them in our homes.

#102972 - 02/22/05 11:56 PM Re: Think About It....  
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Mankind is selfish and greedy. History proves that. It started way back in the garden of Eden when Cain killed his brother. Today the adult human makes choices because he can but how many of these choices are advantageous to his fellow and to the animals he has dominion over? Sadly, love is not the dominent quality in this world. We see that in the way other human beings are abused and the way animals, wild and domestic, are abused.

Will 'love' conquor? The only thing we can control is what we, ourselves, choose to do when we wake up in the morning. And many times we are ashamed when we look in the mirror at night. Does it really matter if we rescue a parrot, in light of how many are continually being sold all around us? You bet it does! When we rescue instead of purchase we stop for a moment all the cruelty man seems to think is his right to inflict on whoever he wants. That is a good thought we can embrace when we wake up in the morning.

#102973 - 02/23/05 12:42 AM Re: Think About It....  
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Each and every rescue matters, even if you can just take in one. Just think...you didn't just make his day, his week or his year. You made his life!

#102974 - 02/24/05 11:57 AM Re: Think About It....  
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I don't believe there is any "domestic" animal. Any animal at anytime can and would hurt you provoked or otherwise. I've raised and showed horses my whole life, but I NEVER let my gaurd down, because they are intended to be free and they like to assert their own free will much as I do myself. They may allow us in their world, but it is still theirs, And not being of their species you don't know their lanague or culture.

#102975 - 02/24/05 04:53 PM Re: Think About It....  
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I guess I consider we humans to be animals and wild animals at best.

In my opinion it is our fantasy we are different. (Western tradition or Eastern, science, history or not whatever explanation puts us above any being or nature)

The domestic and wild issue does not even make sense in my view because we are no better.
We just are.

#102976 - 02/24/05 04:58 PM Re: Think About It....  
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SO?

if we are all animals why do you think humans are so wonderful? Humans are often terrible- walk through a puppy mill, a refugee camp, a bird rescue, a prison- you (at least some of you) will get my drift

I am so confused

brody

#102977 - 02/24/05 05:05 PM Re: Think About It....  
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We are the predators and able to subjugate others (in this case rape nature and abuse toos) so that is the thing. Don't take me wrong I believe we all have the same tendencies.

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