Mytoos

Being sued for my Too! Help!

Posted By: shovelheadme

Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 05:28 PM

What you'll find below is a condensed version of the complete story found further below to make it easier to understand this situation. *Moderator*
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The first owners of our U2 (and another bird) were allergic and moving out of state. The birds were turned over to a local rescue organization that is run by two people. It is supposedly known throughout the U.S. and Canada.

My friend and neighbor took two of the birds in almost immediately as she was an associate of the rescue organization. The rescue had complained of excessive screaming and never checked on the birds or tried to rehome them..

My husband and I took in one of the birds.We had established a relationship with this bird during visits to my friend's home. Upon the move, the bird picked feathers and chewed a hole in his chest. We have learned that this was caused from the stress of the move. I have lost contact with my neighbor but the bird is very well loved and cared for by us.

Later, while asking my vet some questions, he referred me to a lady with some experience. The lady turned out to be one of the two principals of the rescue. Soon after our conversation, I was called back by the other lady (also a principal). She informed me that my bird had to be returned to them by the next day! Supposedly, the original owners were suing the rescue and they needed possession of the bird. There was no compassion as she told me I could not have my U2 back, it would be placed in another foster home. I was beside myself....

This lady then informed my husband that the bird belonged to the rescue and they WOULD get it back. She repeated the ultimatum to return the bird by the next day or she would sue.

The following morning, my husband called the lady to tell her we would not be returning the bird. We did not feel it was in the best interest of the bird or his health to go from our home into another foster home. The lady said "We will see you in court!".

Upset, I reestablished contact with my neighbor who originally fostered the birds. She informed us that she "paid" for the birds with $500 and an antique stove. She has no documentation in writing but does have a witness.

I then received a call from an attorney. I did not return his call. Two days later I received a letter from him (not certified) telling me to return the bird by 2/9/05. My neighbor also received the letter with a contract attached, the one she supposedly signed. The last page of the contract was out of context with the rest of the document and was printed in a different font.

Finally, my concerns:

1)Why, from one good home to another foster home?
2)They were never sued by the original owners, we checked the court docket.
3)They will not send proof of ownership.
4)Their website BEGS for money yet they want to reprocess my bird.
5)One, or both, ladies are involved in BREEDING birds.

The bottom line is if they are a rescue organization, shouldn't they be looking out for the animal involved and what is best for him or her? I LOVE this bird! We have decided to let her sue us. If she proves ownership, the judge will tell me to give the bird back but if I can plead my case, just maybe, he will let me adopt him. Are we doing the right thing here? I am so scared and stressed out over this.
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( Here is the in depth version )

We are so devastated over all this and really need some advice from people who love their bird(s) like we love ours. Here is the story.

My U2 is a rescue bird . His orginal owners were experiencing major personal /medical and couldn't care for them, so they turned the birds over to a bird rescue organization, which I will not name at this time. They are suppose to widely known throughout the US and Canada, but from what I have learned there are only 2 people in this organization. Well my friends, who are also my neighbors, immediately became the foster parent of two U2's because the rescue person could not deal with the screaming. She has been the foster parents of many birds and is considered an Associate of the organization. Most birds she has taken in, she still has after 5 years. During the time she had my U2 and his mate, noone from the organization called to inquire about the welfare of the birds or tried to place them in a permanent home. My friend and her husband were going through a pretty rough divorce and I agreed with my friend to take in one of the birds, the one who took to me and my husband everytime we went to her house. He became really fond of us. In March of 2004, we were brought this precious bird and have cared and loved him ever since. At first he started to pluck a few feathers and chewed a hole in his chest. I have learned that this was from the stress of being moved, but it was really really scary. Our U2 is fully adjusted to this house and the people in it. He is not distructive, unless he sees a crayon or pencil laying around!!! He is so loving and loves the attention he receives because I am with him all day. He has free roam of the house and loves to sleep and cuddle with us on the coach. He has a protective side when someone new comes over and has bitten a few of them. He loves to frolick in the backyard and you can see just how happy he is. Well the organization never called about him since I have had him and my friendship with the original foster parent went down the drain and I had no contact with her for 10 months. I had some questions and I called the Vet and they referred me to a lady who was experienced with birdies, so I called and she asked lots of questions. Well low and behold it was the woman who initially took my U2 in when the original owners gave him up. Soon after I talked to her, I got a phone call from the other lady in the organization on a Friday demanding the bird to be returned the next day (Saturday), that they have legal ownership of the bird. AND she told me they were being sued for the birds back from the original owners and were due in court on that Monday and needed the bird to prove they had it to cover their A**es. Coincidence? Well I was devasted and in tears talking to this lady. I told her I loved this bird and he is apart of our family now, how can I just give him back. She did not show one ounce of compassion. She said they are sure to win the suit brought against them by the previous owners and I asked, well can I get him back after, adopt him? She told me no, I don't think so, but it could be presented in front of the board. THERE is no board, it is just her and another lady. I asked if they had a permanent home for him and she said he will be placed in another foster home. I was beside myself, so I handed the phone to my husband. She told my husband the bird belongs to the organization and that my friend had no right to just give us the bird and they will get it back even if it means she has to take us to court. So she gave us her address and demanded the bird back by 12 noon 1/30/05. She tells me to sue my friend for distress and for any money I paid for the bird or used to care for it. No compassion whatsoever for foremost, my bird, or for my family. My husband and I were up all night freaking out about all of this. I couldn't lose my bird. On that Saturday, my husband called the lady and told her that we will not be bringing the bird back, that we do not feel like it is in the best interest of the birds health, and she just said she didn't care what we wanted or thought. And ONCE AGAIN told us he will be placed in a foster home!!! That is crazy, tear him away from the people he loves and the people who loves him just to send him to a foster home???? Lets just say that phone call ended with her hanging up on my husband and her saying we will go to court. I had no choice but to contact the friend that gave the bird to us. She was "friends" with these people for years and she knows all about the real type of organization it is. I did not pay any adoption fees for the bird. I guess the foster parent agrees to take in the expenses, but the organization gets the money once the bird is placed in a home. She did not recall signing a contract for the birds and her and her x husband told me they paid for the birds. $500. for one and an antique stove, that was suppose to be sold for the orgination, for the other U2. Unfortunately she has nothing in writing but has a witness. I did receive a call from an attorney asking me to return his call, I did not. Two days later, I received a letter (not certified mail) demanding the bird back by 2/9/05 or he will file suit on behalf of his client. My friend also received this letter but attached to the letter was the contract that she supposedly signed. There were several pages all in the same font and print size and the last page was totally different and when you left off on the 2nd to the last page and then went to the last page the paragraphs did not fit, different subjects.
Here is my big concern: Why do they want the bird back knowing it is happy and healthy, just to put him through the stress of trying to adjust to another home? If they did not say he was going to another foster home repeatedly, I would not be as worked up as I am now. Other facts that I find interesting are: they lied about being sued by the original owners. She told us that the court day was for that Monday in her city and we called and there was no suit filed against her or the organization. Nothing on the docket in the county the birds came from. There is NO LAWSUIT, so they lied. Why? They will not send proof of ownership. On their website they are BEGGING, everywhere you look on the site, for donations to build an OUTDOOR building to house all the birds and they need it terribly or they will not be able to take anymore birds in. This building is to be built on one ladys property and she stresses that the building is temporary. So this tells me, donations come through...enough to build a structure that will eventually become part of their property..theirs free of charge, because it is only a temporary place for the birds. What will the building be used for then?? Who is monitoring this constructions. I know the donations go to her at a PO box. And why would she being wasting donation money or her own personal money for a bird that is in a good home and has to go to a foster home after being pulled away?? The other lady in the organization does not work besides bird rescue and I was told her husband works as a cart boy at a local store, but less then 2 years ago they bought a 280,000 house. (Actually this is none of my business, but it is interesting) Then I find out this lady not only rescue birds, she breeds African Greys and Persian cats! Rescue birds, breed them?? She has over 400 birds in her home now, but she breeds? (what I was told) Come on now!
The bottom line is if they are a rescue organization, shouldn't they be looking out for the animal involved and what is best for him or her. I LOVE this bird, how can they do this to us when he has no other permanent home!!!
We have decided to let her sue us, don't know how I will afford it but my gut just tells me this is not right. If she proves ownership, the judge will tell me to give the bird back, but if I can plead my case maybe, just maybe he will let me adopt him. Are we doing the right thing here, because I am so scared and stressed out over this.
Thank you all in advanced for any help you can give us, it is so appreciated.

I was just informed that this organization is not a 501 C3, whatever that means, so if you can shed some light on this as well.
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 05:54 PM

What a mess! If this were my bird, I would call their bluff. If it is a serious suit, it could cost you some money. You have no idea what their resources really are.

If you do decide to ride these jerks out, spend your free time documenting everything you have done for this bird. Take pictures of accommodations and toys you have provided for the bird's welfare. I know you have only had the bird for a year but you still must make an effort. Have all the receipts you can get for vets or anything else.

If you know a lawyer, or have one, pay him $100 to write a letter to their lawyer stating your intention to take this matter very seiously! Be in your face right up front. Most of the suits in this category are a bunch of bull anyway. I sure wish you luck!
Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 06:12 PM

wow is right!

It was hard to keep up with the facts but I would keep the bird on the grounds that they were abandoned.

How long did your friend have the birds and without contact from the 'rescue' before they gave the bird to you?

Was your friend ever contacted from the rescue regarding the whereabouts of the birds before or during the time the bird went into your home?

Sounds hopefully like you may have them on abandonment.

I'm so sorry for you and your bird. Good luck.
Posted By: Ron Pack

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 06:13 PM

So what happened to this birds mate and why were they ripped apart? shocked
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 06:45 PM

Thanks for your responses.
To King Les....
My friend had them 2 months before we took the U2 in. During the time that she had the U2s she did have a few visits from the primary bird rescue lady, but that was to drop off more animals, such as another U2 that was in terrible condition, she had only a few feathers left. Then she brought over a young dog who just gave birth to like 9 pups but would not take care of them. That is the only times I have seen her at my friends home. My friend said she did talk to this woman on the phone but nothing to do with birds period. As far as the other rescue lady, she has not been in contact at all. My friend and I also thought her phone records could be used in court to prove she has not dialed her number in over a year. Since this has all begun, they are just now asking about an African Grey that she has had for over 5 years.

To Ron Pack...
As I said in my message, I was over my friends house all the time and around her birds. My U2 and his mate were not getting along at all. They would fight and peck at each other terribly. They were first together in a HUGE cage and then seperate cages but next to each other, and then eventually had to be totally seperated. Actually it was the U2 I have that was showing major aggression. I would have loved to have them both, but after witnessing such behavior, I was afraid they would kill each other. The other bird is also in a very good home, but the organization has not pushed for the whereabouts of that bird. I wonder why? I do not want to mention names but the rescue organization has been referred to on this site. I did a search AFTER I posted my first message.
My U2 is very much loved and he shows so much love in return. I read a lot of the message people post with difficulties, and I have NONE with mine. He is awesome! He is a squawker when no one is around, but that is apart of his nature, who he is. He has never biten me or hurt me in anyway and I trust him completely. You can tell when he is on guard because he gets this "look" about him and you just say "ut oh" leave him alone! LOL I would love to tell a funny story about my U2, that I will NEVER forget. One day the weather here was just beautiful, a break from the cold, so I had a window opened for him to sit outside to get some fresh air (he loves being outside and sometimes hard to get him to come in!), so he is bouncing back and forth to the window and my shoulder. But all of a sudden...he catches a glimpse of a woman walking down the sidewalk and he hopes to the window. He yells out, "Hi baby" and I watched this lady looking around like, "who said that!" It was funny! But as the lady got closer he said it again, and again...she starts looking around. Then finally, the lady walks past the house and my U2 repeats "hi baby", but oh did his voice change, like he was so irritated that this person did not notice him!!! LOL But then the lady did see where the Hi baby was coming from, but just kept walking! =( Meanie! LOL I LOVE everything about my U2 and can not picture waking up and and not hearing "Hi baby" when I come down the steps. I can not picture one day without my U2, I am so scared to lose him.
Posted By: db

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 07:02 PM

All quite garbled and complicated but I am sure stressful and upsetting.
1. Get an attorney - have him do all the communicating for you. Do not communicate with or respond to any of the parties involved. Do not argue or discuss anything with them again.
2. Make it clear to your attorney your only wish is to keep the bird you have had in your custody for the last year or however long with no interest from this agency in the welfare of the bird. Discuss with your attorney a counter suit for the expenses incurred in your care of the bird for the last year if they pursue the case. Also discuss with your attorney the value of going public (TV newspapers) or threatening to do so with this case to cause major embarrassment to these people.
3. Basically make it more trouble than its worth for them to get the bird back.
Why they are doing this is not worth wondering about as they are the only ones who know why but undoubtedly there is some kind of financial gain in it for them. So make it such a pain in the ass for them they will forget it.
db
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 07:05 PM

Thank you DB!
Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 07:54 PM

Oh sweetie, you may have some trouble.

Once again,it's a confusing string of events to follow...but what was your friends rationale for giving you the bird without getting the go ahead from the person who gave her the birds in the first place?

Did she feel they had been abandoned?

How was it that the rescue only found out about the whereabouts of the bird with you because of your phone call?

Wasn't the lady who dropped off animals at your friend's home aware that she had given you the bird? If not then how come?
Posted By: alexz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 08:01 PM

Even if they sue you, first they'd have to take you to small claims court where there would be no attorney, the most they can "get" is the value of the bird, not the bird itself.

Since there's nothing anywhere in writing, I'd say they are up the creek and are trying to intimidate or scare you into returning the bird for whatever selfish reasons. They obviously are not thinking of the welfare of the bird or they woundn't even consider moving him again.

I do hope it all works out for you.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 08:23 PM

King Les...
From what I understand the primary bird rescuer knew that she had placed the bird in another home. This is only what I have been told. The lady never asked who, but knew my friend was going through a rough time and was fine with it. Like I said, through the years my friend had a relationship with these 2 rescue people. My friend not only works/worked for their organization, but she was the wildlife rehabilitator for our county and would receive squirrels, raccoons, baby birds, cats, dogs etc. she has a few birds that she took in from this organization that she has had for years. Once the animals are placed in her care, there seems to be no contact in regards to the animals already in her care, but for new animals they want to bring to her. I also know that when my friend had a animal to drop off to the rescue, she was told to leave it on the front porch, she is never aloud in the house. As far as her feeling abandonment, I do not know, but they sure show no interest once the bird is in her care. My friend has told me she has not had contact with one in a year and the other one just once or twice...and one time was for a recipe. In my friends eyes, as well as her husband, she owed the birds because they gave them 500.00 cash and an antique stove. Does she have proof of this? No not really because they were dealing with each other for years and had a relationship. Supposedly there is a witness, but its basically their word against theirs. I would have never taken this bird if I knew there was a chance of this happening, or it was illegal for me to have it, so I am stuck in the middle, already in love with the bird. The found out the location of the bird by 1. Me telling them how old the bird was 2. How long I have had it 3. And where I got the bird. Even then the lady communicated by email with no mention of it being "their" bird. 2 days later is when I got a phone call from the other rescue lady. She told me my friend had "no right just to give you that bird". The only problem I see in this is I did not pay any adoption fees for the bird. They should be thrilled that the bird is in a loving home and well adjusted. They have several U2's that they can not find a home for, not to mention all sorts of other species of birds, why add another orphan who will only end up living in an outdoor building without the love and affection he is use too. You can't tell me that 1 lady is going to be able to provide the love and attention that this one bird needs, let alone 400 more. I KNOW it all boils down to what the LAWS are but if this organization is truly looking out for the best interest of these birds, removing him from his home will cause distress which could kill him and I can not live with that, I can not take that chance until a judge orders me to do so. What is the big deal to these people, what are they trying to gain? Why can't I just pay the adoption fees, which they have had NO expense whatsoever with this bird because it was immediately turned over to my friend due to the loud squawking. It is not enough to them, I simply can not have this bird even though they barely have room for anymore birds, according to their website and there is no PERMANENT home for him. My hope is to persuade a judge to allow me to legally adopt him, what is so wrong with that! Sorry if I got carried away, I am just so passionate about this, we are talking about the welfare of a beautiful animal here!
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 08:32 PM

This is a direct quote from a site where they are advertising their birds.

"We are ready to start construction on our rescue building to house the rescues.
Please won't you help our efforts and donate to our building fund today.

Currently we are very limited on space. This building will help us save more lives and place more birds in happy, loving homes."

Mind you this is a building to only be used temporarily, which is being built in her own backyard with donation money.

My U2 is in a happy loving home! Dang it!
Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 08:44 PM

It seems that if the person who gave you the bird payed $500 plus an antique stove for the bird then she owned the bird and had the right to gift the bird to you.

You're going to have to prove your friend owned the bird...

and/or do what db said and make life very VERY difficult for the rescue via bad publicity.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 08:57 PM

Yes, I will have to do what I have to do to protect this bird. Once the organization files suit, she has threaten to post everything on their website for public viewing. I guess that is when I can give the organization a name and call whoever I need to to show how this organization works, which is definitely not in the best interest of the birds. The thought of people making a living off of rescuing birds and breeding them at the same time makes me ill. Oh and I did notice that the 3 U2s that they have advertisd are females, maybe they are wanting him back to breed. Who knows, but if I lose, I will know I did everything possible to do whats best for my U2!
Thanks for all the kind words and advice, it gives me hope.
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 09:07 PM

I am not sure where you are located, but there should be some type of ownership laws. You need to get writted verification from the person that gave you your too stating that she had paid for the bird and is now passing it on to you. Also, if you feel that this is going to go to court, if you have any type of law school in your area, contact them. They frequently do pro bono work for cases such as this. I think that you have obviously loved and cared for this bird and that you can prove that if it has to be relocated again it will only cause stress and possable start mutilating again. If you could get a letter from your vet stating something such as this along with the vet records and ammounts of money that you have spent trying to nurse your too back to health, a judge would be able to see that you are a fit home for your too. The downside is this...many times when you adopt an animal from a rescue or a place like the humane society for example, they have you sign a paper stating that if for any reason you can no longer care for the animal it has to be returned to place that it was adopted from. These contracts are not always iron clad and you could have an attorney look over it if there is one to make sure that it is legal.
I wish you the best....if it comes down to it, is you too banded? is there a chip in it? If not then you could always say that it is a differant bird that you aquired.......sometimes you have to do what you have to do in order to keep what you love.....
Angie
Posted By: corkytoo

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/06/05 09:23 PM

wow, my head is spinning. this all boils down to one thing in my eyes. money. if you paid ther adoption fee they would be $500 dollars and an antique stove further towards their new temporary building. if it's not the adoption fee then it's to get the male back and breed him. if there's three females they'll be thinking the odds are high that he'll like one of them. this again boils down to money. you need to call their bluff and tell them you will see them in court. they certainly don't give a sh** about the bird. why hasn't anyone from this breeding dump been out to see if he's ok. i certainly wouldn't call it a rescue. the other thing i was thinking is how can they prove it's their bird? do they keep dna on file? you need to be really strong and relly awkward. good luck to you and your baby
Posted By: Fidsmom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 12:24 AM

In small claims court they can not sue for property returned they can only sue for a money amount. And if they took you to court and they won lets say and you paid them you would still keep the bird. BUT if you recieved the bird from your friend and not the organization then they would need to sue your friend for breach of contract on their part they can not sue you for the bird. And in most states property left in the care of some for more than 90 days becomes that person property and they can do what they please. If your friend paid for this bird in any form, money, stove etc. Then the bird was difently hers. Also if the previous owners relinqushed the birds to this organization then they no longer have any legal holds on them unless something was stated in a contract. There is a lot of BS being thrown around and they are trying to scare you into giving the bird back. Stand you ground!! No one especially the orginazation has any legal rights to the bird especially after 1 yrs time. If there was no contract then there in no boundaries. Kind of like the saying possesion is nine tenths of law...kind of holds true here. I agree with some of the others ride their bluff out once they figure your not going to fold to their harrasment, they will more and likely move on. And inform them that if they continue to harass you, you will obtain an attorney and file a restraining order on them. Do not speak to them any further in regards to anything. This will cut down on the he said she said thing. And the contract that is inconsistant would not hold much in court because it would looked altered and anything altered in a contract must state such and be signed by both parties. To much time as passed if nothing else the time limitations have already passed.
Posted By: FeatherHeads

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 12:38 AM

First let me say that I am so very sorry that your family is going thru this. My heart breaks for you, and I would do anything for my babies too.

DO NOT give in to these people!!!

Document everything that you can. Get statements (notarized) from the people that gave him to you, vet visits, pictures, letters of good reference from anyone who has seen you interact with your bird etc. Make a "folder of love" that shows how this bird has been integrated into your life, but mostly how important you are in his.

Especially important is any info stating they are acquiring this bird to place it in a "Foster home". Clearly this would indicate he would be placed until an appropriate home could be found.... now prove you meet the qualifications for tht role.

I think it would be really important to get letters of recommendation from your vet (for birds or otherwise) stating that you have a fit and appropriate home for adoption. They have basically declared the reason for wanting this bird.... to place it in a home awaiting adoption (tho I think that is not true).

You need to show just cause that you meet the qualifications. If it goes to court, then the judge can then see that you indeed meet the qualifications.... I do not see the sense of taking a bird from a willing adoptive home to LOOK for an adoptive home.

In my state, CA, this would be a small claims court case without the use of attorneys. Anyone can hire an attorney to write a letter... it's relatively cheap and mostly used as a bluff tactic.

Unless you receive documentation from a COURT, that you can confirm by calling and getting a confirmation of a COURT date, then all they have is bluff coming your way.

Regarding the letter they sent you, send a letter back stating something to the effect that you received the bird from the legal owner, and state that persons name. Tell them that you obtained the bird legally, have invested a substantial amount of time, emotional energy and money on him, and intend to keep him.

Make the letter businesslike, no emotion etc.

Don't provide any extra info. The only reason to do this is that IF they decide to take you to court, you can prove that you replied in a timely manner to the judge.

Again, get all the documentation you can together. Chances are you will not need it, but if so you will be prepared.

I would not communicate with them further by email or telephone. Request any info they wish you have to come by regular mail. Keep anything they send to you in your files tho.

Do you have an avian vet that can help you? Maybe the local SPCA or pet shelter has some an attorney that does pro bono services.

I think at the worst, they can force you to pay and adoption fee....

Keep us updated and Best wishes!!

Hugs!
MaryRose and Sassy
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 01:39 AM

All of you have been so helpful, the more I read, the more hopeful I feel. Any and all suggestions are more then appreciated. I can only hope that they are bluffing, but I am going to be prepared if we do go to court. Yes, I have an avian vet and a very close friend who works there. She witnessed the mutilation he went through when I first got him and was there anytime I needed her. She is very upset at the way this organization is handling this and said she was going to speak with the vet and techs because their office refers people to this organization. She also said she would go to court with me and to help anyway she can. She knows as well as I do that my U2 will most likely start mutilating himself again if he is moved after all this time. In an email I received from the organization, demanding the bird back, they listed cc: below, and she listed all the local newschannels, Oprah Winfrey, 20/20, The Animal Protective League, and the local and state newspaper & more. Now I am thinking if she does file suit, I will or I will have a lawyer send out a letter that I will indeed call all these people to let them know the way they work. I asked if I could adopt the bird and was told NO, but why not when he has no home!!! They pride themselves on being known worldwide. Whether they are really, I have no clue. On their site they talk a great deal about looking out for the well being of the birds, but not in this case. Like I have read, there are thousands of birds (U2's) in need of a loving home, why put one more out there.

This just in: My friend just received an email from one of the rescue ladies
----------------------------------------------
((( (CHECKMATE)
('v') /
(( ))
===^^===
\\
\
----------------------------------------------
Oh brother!
Please be advised that I am refraining from using any names involved in this situation, but I have a very good idea that they may be a user of this site.
Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 01:44 AM

Well if they are a user of this site then they're probably just lurkers.

Mytoos has no regard for breeders.
Posted By: jules

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 03:25 AM

It's already been said by db:
A) get a lawyer if possible
B) do not talk with, correspond with, or attempt
to negotiate with these people except through
the lawyer
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I have any legal training;
-didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night wink -
but I would not want to risk something
this serious without at least some legal advice.
It sure sounds convenient to me that you just
happen to call just when they're involved in a
suit? Hmmm....doesn't pass the sniff test, y'know?
You stand your ground.
Posted By: For Kiko

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 04:38 AM

This situation is heart wrenching.

I also suggest you seek legal representation.

Refer these supposed rescuers to deal with your attorney.

Document everything in chronological order.
Get a signed statement from your neighbor that she had paid them for the bird prior to giving it to you.
Get a statement from the individual who supposedly witnessed this payment.
Get photos of your too documenting his living situation. His cage. Photos with family members, etc.
Get a statement from your veterinarian.

There is something very wrong going on if your County Wildlife Rehabber is not allowed inside their facility/home. She must have contacts at the local Humane Society. Perhaps it is time for them to go out and take a look at the conditions in this place.

There's a reason they do not have non-profit status. This would require them to have a "Board" for review.

I don't know of any legitimate Bird Rescue that breeds any type of birds. This rescue sounds more like a hording / breeding situation going on to me. mary
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 05:58 AM

Maybe we should all send a letter to Oprah Winfrey asking her to do a story on the conditions of captive parrots and the lack of people that really care for them!!!!!
Angie
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 06:13 AM

I agree Angie. I have been sitting here dwelling on what can happen and wondering how I will ever be able to live without my U2. I have only had him for a bit shy of a year, I can not possibly imagine this happening years from now. I have been researching the organizations site and it makes me sick how she represents their cause. Just knowing what she wants to put this bird through makes me sooooooo angry. I am preparing for battle and if a suit is filed, I will call everyone she referred to in her email to me...the local news channels, the local and state newspapers, and hell.... why not Oprah too! If she can do it, so can I. You all have been very supportive and I thank God I had this forum to speak out my frustration. I just wish I was able to say the organizations name, so people are aware of how they work, and it is definitely not in the best interest of the birds!
Posted By: For Kiko

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 06:24 AM

Hi Shovelhead, if you could post what state you are living in, we could do a search on.....what the laws are in your state.
Posted By: Leigh

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 06:24 AM

Oprah is a perfect choice! I knew a woman who knew her and she had told me Oprah actually has an apartment JUST FOR HER DOGS! Sure must be a big time animal lover to do all that!
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 06:50 AM

This just in: If you recall how I mentioned a contract that my friend supposedly signed for the birds, the contract the organization had their lawyers send, has a date of 2/16/04. My friend had these birds long before then and has pictures of the U2's in her house with dates of 2003!!!! I hope this will help us!!! On 2/16, my friend took in an Amazon that day!
Will keep you posted!
For Kiko - I have been advised not to mention anything that will point to the organization directly. I wish I could, but I have to protect my U2 as well as myself. Believe me if things come to a head, you may be reading about it somewhere!
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 06:53 AM

And Leigh - if things go bad, I will personally hire you to get the ball rolling with Oprah!! LOL <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" />
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 06:59 AM

Last post of the night, I promise! I just stumbled on this on their website. Can somebody explain to me what the hell it means????

"If you are looking to adopt please understand that we only adopt from our XXXXXX branch. We rarely have birds for adoption and when we do it is only budgies, cockatiels, lovebirds and some times conures. No other species are adopted. We operate as a bird rescue/refuge and not as a bird adoption."

So does that mean my U2's destiny will be a life of foster homes????
Posted By: Leigh

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 07:58 AM

Sounds like someone with something to hide alright!
Posted By: Robert Barta

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 03:07 PM

shovelheadme - First of all, I would not get too upset over this...yet. No suit has been filed.

Save all the correspondance, sounds like a lot of strong arming with nothing to back it up.

You asked why they are doing this. I am certain that they are doing this because they placed the bird in a "Foster Home", which to them is temporary and wish to be paid fees for an "Adoption". In other words they want money!!!

You have a lot of things working for you. You mentioned they are not licensed to do business in this area. You have the bird in your posession. The business that they run is supposed to place birds in good homes. It sounds like you would be willing to pay a "reasonable adoption fee" if necessary to keep your bird. And the original owners have not filed any suit...and the "company" lied about that and you have documented in their letters.

I don't think this one is going to make it to court. Keep your doors locked, your mouth shut and ride it out. Get caller ID and do not accept their phone calls. If the calls/e-mails get harrassing or they attempt to harrass you in person it will be time for you to bring your own lawsuit.
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 03:17 PM

I still don't know what state you are in, but check on the state laws for recording conversations. In some states both parties need to be aware that they are being recorded, in others only the person doing the recording needs to know. Record all phone conversations if you have them with these people, record all conversations with the person that you aquired the bird from and anyone else that you may get in contact with regarding your parrot. That way it is admissable if you do need to go to court. IMHO the courts are so overloaded with bullcrap that I doubt that a case like this is going to get very far. Also, I would be concerned about this organizatin not being legit and not having the best interest of the bird in mind.....
I am going to do some research for you and I will post again in a little while.
Angie
Posted By: Sammy ,Mickey and Harvey

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 03:52 PM

Well here goes my opinion. I do feel that the so called rescue organization is spitting into the wind.I do believe Angie mentioned that they have to prove that the too was in their possession previously. In other words they have to prove ownership which they can't. What I would do is totally ignore them. Get as much documentation just in case and relax and enjoy your life as hard as that is at the present time.

Its just that the greed motive $$$$ is in play and remember possession is 99% of the law
Harvey
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 04:06 PM

Is this organization not considered "legit" because of the 501(c)3? Because they have a full page on their web site regarding this and basically that the 501's are the organizations that get a salary etc. Here is one excerpt:

18. What if the organization claims to be a 501(c)3 tax-deductible nonprofit organization? Do they REALLY have this status? Is 50l(c)3 tax status mandatory -- or necessary -- to be a nonprofit organization?

(Comment: It is up to you, the donor, not the nonprofit organization itself, to make sure that the IRS will allow you to deduct your financial support -- if that is your goal. One objective for holding a 501(c)3 tax status is really to be able to collect a personal nonregulatory "salary" -- which can mean less money for the actual nonprofit cause. Actually, your money may go further toward your charitable goal if you deal with a non-501(c)3 organization: Other reasons for obtaining a 501(c)3 nonprofit status are -- to solicit for donations, get government funding for the organization, and, of course, to be able to cover all business operational expenses -- including nonregulatory management salaries.)
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 04:09 PM

Here is some info on the 501 c 3 for you
web page
Also, I noticed that these birds were placed in a home before a contract was signed. Can you check that contract and tell me if it was notarized or not? If not then the chances of them being able to proceed with legal means is very slim to none. A legal contract must be at least notarized by a notary public. Furthermore, if this organization is a 501 c 3 I would think that you could make a report to the IRS regarding ngligant use of funds. The bird is in a stable home, that is the goal of the rescue, and now they are threatening to use funds of a non profit org to fight in court over what should be the main objective of the rescue.
I would also consider contacting my attorney general in your state. A close friend of mine, Heidi, was the Attorney General in North Dakota for years and now practices law. I wouldn't mind giving her a call for you if need be, but I thik that you are better off contacting the state that you are in. A situation like this can be reported and the rescue investigated, including an audit of finances. Do they really want to go through all of that? I doubt it!!

Angie
Posted By: liviray

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 04:22 PM

Dont speak to these people...no phone calls, no E-Mails...all done thru legal channels. Your opening yourself up if you have contact with them.

I think Angie is right...alot of hassle can come their way if they want to persue this, and If they do I for one would like to know what rescue this is...cause I sure as heck wont be sending any money.

I find it interesting if they are reading this that they havnt chimed in to defend themselves, leads me to believe that they know its wrong and are hiding.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 04:24 PM

Well they are a non profit organization, NOT a 501(c)3. They are begging for donations now to build a temporary outdoor building for all the birds. This ticks me off simply because it will be on her property and once not in use for bird housing, it becomes hers...free. Her husband runs a his own business and has collects tractors...hmmm...maybe that is what they really need the shelter for. But of course my mind is running wild. I just don't see why they would go through this type of expense when the bird is in a loving home and will only end up in a foster home or an associates home. I did look over their contract and it is so hokey looking as it is. The page that she signed is clearly different from the rest of the contract and there is not a signature on any significant pages, such as the birds name or anything else. I do not believe it was notarized, I will let you know. But in their site they repeat the contracts are legally binding, but I know anyone can say that.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 05:04 PM

I have had no contact with them via phone since the 1/29. Receive an email on 1/30 and 1/31. One from each rescue lady. Then I received a phone call from their lawyer telling me he represents the organization and I have in my possession a cockatoo that belongs to them. Please call my office, blah blah blah. Two days later I receive a letter say the birds must be returned by 2/9 or he will file suit on his clients behalf. That is it. I like the idea of having an attorney send their attorney a CERTIFIED letter and make it known I will go public with this. If they are so well known across the country and Canada, they surely would not want bad publicity at a time where they are begging for donations to build a outdoor building to house all the birds that they can not place as it is!! She has already threatened me in her own way, by adding all our local news channels, newspapers, and good ole Oprah to her carbon copy list of her email. Well she just typed it on the bottom of her email, all the cc's she sent was to everyone of her own email addresses as well as the other rescue ladys. With mostly the word "rescue" being in the email address, I am sure she did that as a scare tactic as well. But my friend who gave me the bird, named off all their emails and sure enough they sent cc's to themselves.
Today, I am going to try and relax. What happens happens, but I will be prepared, I've done my homework! And I also have excellent photos of our U2, to show how happy he is. I have 3 kids..13, 8, and 2 1/2 and the best picture I have is with our U2 and my 2 1/2 cuddling with my husband. Now if that doesn't show that our U2 is not in distress, besides his healthy, non feather picking and non mutilation, I don't know what will! He is so happy here with all of us and I hate the thought of a "rescue organization" ruining his quality of life for no good reason besides an adoption fee, that Ioffered to pay but was refused. This organization also provides behavioral consultation for a fee, I think they need to go back to some kind of schooling because how do you think his behavior will be once ripped from the family he loves so unselfishly.
Posted By: Marie & Peaches

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 06:26 PM

They have some nerve. They certainly NOT looking out for the parrot's best interest but for they're own.
Yes, try and relax and think good thoughts. You have a lot more going for you than they do.
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/07/05 09:14 PM

Don't stress over this. The bird has been thriving in your home for some time and obviously is loved very much. I think that the information that you are getting regarding ignoring them is correct, and if they continue to harass you then I would threaten to put a harassment suit against them...Keep your chin up....God has a way of looking out for his creatures....it is most humans that look out for themselves.....
Angie wink
Posted By: jules

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 03:56 AM

IIRC, a 501-3c status means that the organization
has applied for and been granted a non-profit
status by the IRS and any contributions to them
can be tax deductible for the donor. Any board
members may or may not necessarily be salaried -
a small non-profit is most likely all volunteer
and no salaries are paid regardless.
Beyond that, I'd reckon anyone can claim they're
non-profit but you couldn't deduct a donation
to them come tax time.

Then again, I'm still not a lawyer, and still
haven't even slept in a Holiday Inn Express laugh
This is just what I remember having discussed
with a friend as she worked on completing & filing
paperwork for her rescue's non-profit 5013c status.

jules
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 04:48 AM

just don't clip its wings for about.. a month, then give it a donut, and let the damn thing fly away, NOW whos bird is it?
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 04:52 AM

ALAGASH THAT IS A HORRIBLE THING TO SAY!!!!! I don't know who you are or if you are joking, but I just lost my parrot due to it's wings getting longer than I realized and flying away!!! I AM APPALLED AT WHAT YOU HAVE WROTE!!!!
Why would you come here and make a comment such as that....this person is obviously very worried about the chance that she might end up losing her bird and then someone comes along like you and makes a comment like that.....Then I looked at your profile and realized that you must be here to stir up trouble because you don't sound serious at all.
Angie
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 05:26 AM

A huge thankyou to Jerry and the Mods for removing the person that was causing trouble. You guys are right on it!!!! Some people can be so heartless!!
Ang
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 05:46 AM

OH MY!!!! How can you say a thing like that??? Like Angie said, I am worried to death over this. I wake up worried, I am worried all day, and I go to bed worried and it starts all over again. I do not need to hear or read crap like that.

We did some research on the lawyer the organization has working for them, and it doesn't seem good for us. Mind you the headquarters of the organization and the lawyer reside in the same county.

Animal Welfare (lawyers names) XXX & XXX has been appointed by the county humane societies in XXX, XXX and XXX Counties to act as special prosecutor for animal cruelty cases. As long-standing members of the Animal Legal Defense Fund, we pursue a broad range of animal welfare issues, from veterinary malpractice, to estate planning for the care of a pet, to zoning issues relating to animals.





My husband thinks this is a conflict of interest, but what does he know. And my friend thinks it could work to our advantage because removing our U2 would be considered "cruelty to animals", in our eyes anyways.

As for now I will wait it out and get everything I need. I am also in contact with our countys Humane Society to see what they can do to help.

I think a big advantage is getting the News involved, but we have to talk to an attorney to see when that can be done "legally". I think they would back off because they would not want the publicity when they are in desperate need of funds to build this outdoor building for the birds (which makes me sick to think of my U2 in that building instead of his home!)

Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated!
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 06:24 AM

Thanks Jules, your Holiday Inn Express comment has cracked me up once again. <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" /> In response to your comment, I did read up on it and I thank all who provided info on it. If I am not mistaken, I heard this organization applied for it but was denied. I have no idea why.

The good news today is my U2 finally took a shower!! He would never go in the shower with me, we always have to bathe him in the sink. When we take him in the shower with us he runs along the top of the shower doors and jumps and swings on my curtains...back and forth...back and forth! LOL You could always tell he was very curious and he is also very verbal while doing his marching. But today for some reason...he stretched out for me to take him and I slowly put him under the spray. He loved it!!! He spread his wings and was so happy he was laughing, I nearly cried from the new experience!! Why now, I asked myself? Maybe it is a sign that everything will work out!

Well I am going to try and get some sleep, Lord how I need it! I will check in tomorrow to check for more valuable info and the support that you all have shown. I can't express enough how much this message board and all the loving and caring people has meant to me and my husband. Thank you all!
Posted By: hellobaby

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 07:02 AM

I'm with DB
An attorney is the best way to go.
And DON'T give up YOUR beloved U2!

Lynne
Posted By: Robert Barta

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 04:33 PM

shovelheadme - what is the name of your U2? (I guess I missed that)

This has had me greatly concerned and I am glad for the updates.

It appears that the "Rescue" has told you that they want to put information about this case on their internet site. This is why you need to not talk to them, they are attempting to build up a "story" and they will use anything you say against you. It also shows that they are not serious about filing a suit. They are going to try to intimidate you with lawyer letters, e-mails, phone calls, internet trash talking and threats.

Also, I suggest no threats on what you might do. It is better that you just wait until you think it is appropriate and then just do whatever you are going to do (make it public, sue for harrassment). Threats and intimidation are their game, you don't have to make it yours.

You need to get as much documentation from your friend as you can...any paperwork about the money/stove and transfer of the bird to her and possibly have her write something about the transfer to you. Good luck.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 04:55 PM

Good Morning Robert and thanks for your response. I have indeed left out my U2's names, as well as the names of all parties involved and our location to protect my U2 and my family. Tomorrow is the deadline according to their lawyer, so we will sit back and wait to see what happens next. Once again, I have had no contact with the organization or their lawyers. At 1pm I will be speaking to our Avian vet and the avian vet techs, they want to know exactly what is happening because they deal with this organization.



Basically, I am starting to believe this is going to be a he said she said kind of suit. The only real thing they have is the contract that is not notarized and looks really hokey. What we have is so much more, because we know we love this bird and we care about his well being.



If someone knows of any articles written about U2's and the difficulties finding homes for them, self mutilation, feather plucking etc, that I may legally use, let me know. To have as much information as possible can only help my cause even more!
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 05:14 PM

There should be a wealth of information right here under your fingers. The search engine will bring up just about any situation you can imagine. shocked
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 06:19 PM

Charlie -


Oh I know, but I was under the impression that I could not use it because of this statement: All posts on this message board are copyright and may not be used without permission.



I personally have learned a great deal from this site. The information has been invaluable to us. I was looking for articles etc, that I may print and take to court with me if they follow through with the suit. I meant no disrespect to the information provided on this board, I just was unaware that I could use it. How do I go about obtaining permission to use this sites information? I love all the information on the mytoos.com home page and I find it very true!
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 06:22 PM

This is Jerry's board. You can ask him at:

info@mytoos.com
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/08/05 06:30 PM

I hope all goes well! I do not know to much about legal issues in the case of adopted animals etc! But I can tell you, it seems the bird is better off staying put then to be ripped again from his home! My thoughts are with you while I follow this thread!
Posted By: richard oz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/09/05 02:53 PM

shovel,
Tell'em all to GHAN GET ......, he's your baby now. Bugger them the bird's welfare comes first. I could not careless about their problems they were happy to unload him. Isn't possesion 9/10 of your law? Besides with whom is the bird happiest with? Let him attack this dropkick. God I'm upset about this I wish I could be there to tell this person where to go. Don't you dare give him up, lock the door and apply for an AVO (apprehended violence order) if they come around. Remember our motto: Who Dares Wins.
You can beat this. Don't let this person in your home and DON'T give them the cocky. Give them as many birds as you like but not the cocky.
Good luck champ.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/09/05 04:54 PM

I am waiting to hear from Jerry whether I can use information provided on this site as a means of defense. If this is brought to court, I want the judge to know everything possible about these kinds of birds and what they can do to themselves if in distress. If he gives me permission, maybe I should just start a new thread and those who would like to be heard about this situation, can provide their knowledge and experiences.


Well, today is the day. Our U2 was to be returned before or on this day. So we just sit tight and hope they are blowing smoke! Thanks again for all your comments and support!
Posted By: corkytoo

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/09/05 05:07 PM

i'm thinking of you all. please please keep us updated wink
Posted By: zigstersmom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/09/05 07:12 PM

Oh do I feel for you Shovelhead! Don't give in. Everyone is right. They have no right to the bird. Keep plenty of documentation. Make there lives miserable. Threaten suits, bad publicity, whatever it takes. All thru an attorney. Do not contact them yourself and do not take any phone calls from them. Here in Florida we can call the local news channels. They can help. They will do an investigation into the type of rescue and its practices. A huge embarrassement if they are also breeding! 99% of your rescues are against breeding. Good luck and keep us posted!
Posted By: Vicki

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/09/05 08:05 PM

Our prayers are with you. They would have to drag me kicking and screaming to get any of my animals. Everybody has given such good advise, don't give up.
Posted By: Nikki's Mom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/09/05 08:21 PM

Just read your post and something you said jumped out at me and here it is (I also know that when my friend had a animal to drop off to the rescue, she was told to leave it on the front porch, she is never aloud in the house.) WHAT ARE THEY HIDING? Good luck
Posted By: Marie & Peaches

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/09/05 08:35 PM

You are in my thoughts. I hope its just smoke that will blow away easily. Please let us know what happens.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 08:03 AM

Just posting to let you all know, nothing happened today. No phone call from their lawyer, which I was kind of expecting but nothing happened. So once again, we will sit back and pray.


The last couple of days our Too has been acting quite differently. And just maybe he is sensing "our" distress and is in big time comfort mode. We can not put him down for a minute! He has always been affectionate, but he also enjoys his time in/on his cage. But what really shocked me tonight was this: My husband was on the computer downstairs, with our U2 on his cage, and I was upstairs watching TV and all of a sudden I hear a strange cracking noise on the steps! So, of course I get up to look. I COULD NOT BELIEVE IT!! For the first time since I have had him, he climbed a flight of stairs!!! (Doing lots of damage to the wood on the way up! eek ) He was coming to see me!!! laugh

I just wonder if he does know what I feeling and knows how worried I am and is trying to comfort me?? It's just strange that all these new "firsts" (like showering with me) are occurring when our family is going through this mess! Do I sound nuts or what?!?


Well he is sleeping soundly and hopefully that is what I will be doing here shortly!


I will let you all know if anything transpires tomorrow. Thanks for keeping us in your prayers!


Oh yeah... I am battling a bad cold and I learned today NOT to blow my nose with him on my shoulders, he does not care for that to much! eek <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" />
Posted By: Nikki's Mom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 06:21 PM

I beleave they know I say this becouse my father passed away last year at night so we had to take the birds with us drove all night 1600 miles she would not go in her cage had to stay on my should she would take her beak and rub my check any time I would start to cry and yes I know having her out in the car is not good I tryed everything to keep her in the cage
Posted By: Shutterbug76

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 06:33 PM

That really sux for you, I'm very sorry. Position is 9/10's of the law.

If the judge is made aware of the circumstances hopefully he/she will do what is in the best interest of the bird...YOUR home. smile
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 08:19 PM

HERE WE GO!!!!!! I just received an email from the organization and I am quite shaken up, literally! But why is she emailing me???? Here is what she had to say!

We are informing you that we are taking this matter regarding you NOT returning our Cockatoo to XXXXXXXXXXXX to court. We did our best to settle this out of court but you would not cooperate.

We will be suing you for legal expenses, court costs and whatever other charges we can bring against you.
We have the phone conversation proving the both of you agreed to return the bird to us on an agreed day and time then after the agreed day and time, called and said you were NOT going to return the bird. This will not look good in court.
We also have xxx xxx (my friends name)phone conversation. The lies are growing.

Sincerely,
XXX XXX

Oh Lord, I hope she is bluffing! Time to get legal help! I believe it is illegal to tape phone conversations without the other partys consent, so i am sure that can't be used. I am freaking out now!
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 08:23 PM

Charlie if you are here, please delete this thread if you can, I accidentally put something that I should not have and it could cause trouble for me if they sue me!
Posted By: Ron Pack

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 08:40 PM

How can she know this is the same bird ? If the bird isn't banded, micro chipped, tattooed, DNA fingerprinted. or have some type of distinctive characteristic, I would tell her to GET BENT !!

In order to claim lost or stolen property, I would think she has to prove ownership....

Besides, who's to say the original bird never died or escaped..or was sold or traded for another cockatoo?

ps: you can edit your own posts by clicking on the pencil and paper icon above the post. I removed the name for you....
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 08:47 PM

Thank you Ron!
Posted By: alaska_toos

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 08:47 PM

shovel,
If you would like to email me at alaska_toos@hotmail.com and tell me what you would like to be removed from your post I can do it for you... or if you look at the post where the paper and pencil are you can edit your own post and take out what it is to be removed.

edit* Ron is much faster than at posting wink
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 08:51 PM

Ron, LOVE the "get Bent"

I am not used to "getting sued ETC." But an EMAIL is NOT legal documents I have NEVER heard of such a thing! So threats made in email COULD be construed as harrassment! Legal service MUST be done by a LEGAL processor! Usually someone appointed by the court like a sherrif or clerk. A civilian can serve by signing paperwork that they are serving IN PERSONA. Email crap dont mean crap delete it! I was told along time ago you NEVER show your hand by "THREATS" of possible court actions! Actually now that I a thinking of it you could probably counter sue for harrassment.......
Posted By: db

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 09:12 PM

I think they are talking a bunch of nonsense and are trying to scare you into surrendering the bird. As I said previously you should get an attorney and let him sort it out which I have no doubt he could do in a couple of days - then all this would go away.
Do not acknowledge or respond any communications from them - wait until you receive an actual summons and then let your attorney handle that too.
db
Posted By: Alleaa

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 09:13 PM

Hi, I'm sorry that you are going through all this. I have been reading the threads and I would like to add something. I would get ever paper you have for your too in order, any vet reciepts, or reciepts or anything for him.

Right now if they are only emailing and calling, I would try and relax it sounds like they are trying to really get to you.
Again I am sorry that you are going through this, my thoughts & prayers are with you.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 09:31 PM

Well guess what??? My friend, the same friend who gave me my Too did not get an email informing her of intent to sue. I am thinking this is an effort to try and scare me into returning it. Maybe her lawyer told her she has no case, but for $100 would make a phone call and send a letter. Now it is time to pay a retainer and she is taking things into her own hands. In a previous email she said they have been advised to have no further contact for the matter will be going to court, so why email now?? Things are looking up!


I know obtaining an attorney is the right thing to do, but I do not feel the need to spend the money when they are hopefully just bluffing. I could use that money for more toys and the upcoming vet bill that I will have for his checkup. I will keep my mouth shut and my fingers still, even though I want to respond so bad. It is illegal in our state to record convos without consent or knowledge from the other party. She can not use them in court. So, I think she is banking on us replying to try and get information or some sort of proof! If I receive a letter from the court, that is when I will get counsel! But I already have all the documents I will need together!
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 09:34 PM

P.S
Every email I have gotten from the organization, my friend has received the same one. This is the first time she did not receive one.
Posted By: Roka

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 10:55 PM

Shovelheadme, I am so sorry to hear what has been happening and wish you the best of luck. A happy healthy cockatoo should stay put and to move it for political/financial reasons is abhorrent.

Hopefully this will all go away but I would start preparing in case. For me having less toys and using the money to ensure he stays in a loving home is better. I would be too stressed and upset to deal with it all and you can never beat the services of a good lawyer. If it goes away this time I could never relax again in case it came back. I would have a lawyer sort legal ownership out once and for all and only then could I sleep easy.
Posted By: hellobaby

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 11:18 PM

This is my opinion... I doubt this person will give up the scare tactics. I think it would be worthwhile to hire an attorney to investigate these claims and put a stop to this person's tactics once and for all! Why keep going through the emotions every time you're contacted - even if it's bogus? Why continue to wonder?

I and a couple of other people here have figured out the organization you're talking about and will NOT mention it here because we don't want to be a detriment to your situation. I would love to see you be done with this so they could be exposed and possibly stopped from doing things like this in the future.

Their site is intriguing because they do present things as if they have a lot to hide. The fact that they only have two 'associates' and brag about being around for almost 20 years is interesting to say the least. So is the fact that they're begging for money for temporary housing, as mentioned previously.

I certainly don't have a good feeling about them. It's clear that what they CLAIM and what they DO are two different things. That's just my opinion. I certainly hope you'll call their bluff with the help of someone who knows their way around the legal aspects of things. Good luck and I hope we hear some good news soon!

Lynne
Posted By: Robert Barta

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 11:24 PM

shovelheadme - it sounds like you are quite in tune with what is going on. Good that you have your documentation in order.

I would not delete any of their e-mails. I'd print them out. They could be admissable in small claims court where rules of evidence are somewhat easier.

I'd suggest talking to any neighbors/friends who are police officers and lawyers to let them know the problem and have a lawyer # on hand in case you need it in an emergency situation. Though I still agree with your assessment that they are just trying to scare you. Actually, since the time passed, I would have expected the suit to be brought, not an e-mail. Lynne makes a good point, if you retain a lawyer you can just reply to the last e-mail to contact your lawyer and then block their e-mails for peace of mind.

Agreeing that you understand that they want the bird back by a particular date/time is not the same as agreeing that you have their property and will return it on that date/time. Don't worry about their misrepresentation of your conversations. They don't make any sense and most judges will see that.
Posted By: Lrex

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/10/05 11:27 PM

Hi there:
For what it is worth, I went through a similar thing a couple of years ago with 3 cockatiels and a budgie that were abandoned. Here is what I would recommend....

1. Find out the going rate for boarding a bird in your area. Around here it was $5.00 per day plus food. Multiply that by the number of days you have had the bird. Add the costs of toys, cages, trips to the vet - everything. Get it all ready to file a counter claim if you are served with any papers

2. Don't even think about turning the bird over to anyone unless a sheriff or police officer (or some other official wearing a gun) shows up at your door.

3. Worst case scenario here is that you end up paying the price of the bird. Of course, they are priceless but I would do some research about the going price. Then get with rescues in your area and ask them to give you some statistics on unwanted cockatoos. Most will tell you that it would be difficult or even impossible to sell an adult cockatoo. Especially one with "issues" (read just being a normal cockatoo).

I for one am willing to write you a letter on the "value" of cockatoos and the kind of damage that could be done to this bird by this ridiculous action. My email address is lrex8@yahoo.ca

Above all else, yes he does know something is wrong. It is impossible to fool them about that kind of stuff.

My final bit of advice - go to a lawyer of your own and pay the small consultation fee. If you are not versed in the law these things are difficult to understand. A small cost could be helpful to you.

In my case I did not file a counterclain against the girl until the Judge, at the pre-trial mediation, indicated that I should do so. The total amount of my counterclaim for boarding etc. was more than 3 times her claim. He made it clear I was going to win!!!! I settled it out of court and prayed to God she would never get another bird.

Good Luck to you.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 12:33 AM

Thanks for all the posts. I have listened and have did a lot of what I have been told to do already. I just do not understand where the grounds are for sueing us, you would think they would just go after my friend who gave me the bird. If she breeched her contract, I am resposible for that? Sue her for breech of contract and the value of the birds and leave my Too in peace, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, they want him back. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see her get sued, but the whole thing doesn't make sense.
I love the fact she admitted in her email of recording our convo, which is illegal in our state and she has got to know this. Yes, I will contact a lawyer and see what I can do to see how I can stop this now. A letter from her attorney DID NOT do the trick, but maybe a letter from mine will!

Great thanks and ((((hugs))) to all of you for all the help and support!
Posted By: JAN H.

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 01:19 AM

Hi...ya know I almost wish I knew the name of this so called rescue..because I donate to parrot rescues and sure as H*** will never donate to that one. They are despicable frauds!! angry
Posted By: birdheartsoul

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 04:07 AM

About the lawsuit what state is this happening in?
Posted By: hellobaby

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 06:23 AM

I think it's best to keep the location private until the legal issues are settled - IF there are really any legal issues. wink

Lynne
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 07:02 AM

birdheartsoul - Oh I outta keep the location a secret!
We are feeling much better about the situation! I am sure everything is going to work out. We have much more on them and they have nothing!
I feel really really bad about the posts where people want to know the organization because they donate to this very important cause. I feel like I don't want people to donate to them, but what about the birds that are already in their care. It is sad, terribly sad! frown

No other updates besides the fact that my friend DID NOT receive an email from the organization, so in our eyes it just shows they do not have proof of ownership!
Posted By: BE2Cassie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 12:35 PM

We're keeping our fingers and toes crossed for you. Good Luck. Nancy
Posted By: corkytoo

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 02:14 PM

any developments today shovelheadme?
Posted By: birdheartsoul

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 03:17 PM

I hope when all this is over you can reveal at least the state. Yesterday we went to the pet shop where the rescues were being sold.

Good luck with your bird!
Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 04:12 PM

Another thing you may want to do is enlist the help of other rescues in the state that you are in. They will probably be able to vouch for the fact that if the too is being properly cared for and is doing well in your home then there is no good reason a rescue should be trying to get the bird back and that it will only harm the bird..and that a legit rescue wouldn't do that to the bird.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 06:49 PM

I am on it now King Les! Great idea!
Posted By: JAN H.

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 07:07 PM

Hugs to you! It is wonderful how you are fighting for whats right for the bird! Keep us updated please! laugh
Posted By: hhanse57

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 07:59 PM

I am also following this thread and want to add my wishes that these scumbags drop all the haressment. I also hope that you'll be able to tell us the name of this "organization" when everything gets done. Rescue organization - yeah right...
Posted By: Marie & Peaches

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 08:41 PM

Guess they thought they were dealing with a whimp.
You sure showed them up. Three cheers for the birds! <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" />
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/11/05 09:13 PM

I have been doing as King Les suggested, contacting other rescue and briefly informing them of what we are experiences, but there is not too many in my state. So I thought, why not ask the Rescues all over the country! Once again, I am leaving out names and locations to protect ourselves as well as our U2. I have gotten one reply, and he wants me to call him or give him my number to discuss it in detail and he would help anyway he can. I will give you this, he is not in the same state as we are. I looked over his site and I am thoroughly impressed! Bravo to him! But should I call him? Advice is greatly appreciated. But just think... laugh If we had statements from rescues all over our country showing how wrong this is!!


You know, I am so torn by this. This organization is run by a bunch of idiots, but they do have birds in their care and from what I hear..alot of them. I just don't want these birds to suffer from anything we do. Yes, we can go to the media if they take us to court, the embarrassment would be great, but the birds would most likely suffer. I have no way of knowing if they have done this before. We did look up the organization in court public records and there is nothing showing the organization except one of the rescue ladies sued someone for $5.00 with interst of 10%. Weird, huh? Based on what she is doing to our U2 and us is all I have to base how this organization runs. But the deeper you go and the more you read, it appears that they do run a hokey rescue.

I know a lot of you want to know the organizations name because you donate to rescues. I am a bit curious of the organizations you donate to and if they are one of them. Do you consider donating to a non profit organization that is not 501(c)3? After all the sites I have visited, I sure would like to donate, but I am leary now! shocked
I will keep you all posted!
Posted By: Neka-D2

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/12/05 08:01 AM

My heart goes out to you. I couldn't even begin to understand what you must feel like. Just remember "what goes around comes around". There is no way that anyone in their right mind would take your bird away after all the good things you have done. I read your post and it brought tears to my eyes frown . Just get a lawyer so you don't have to deal with them. They aren't even worth getting worked up over. I know in the end this situation will blow up in their face. Neka and I send our love and prayers to you.
Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/12/05 04:05 PM

Quote:
But should I call him?
YES.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/13/05 09:46 PM

Just posting to let you all know that nothing new has happened. I will know more tomorrow, once I can consult with an attorney.

King Les,
I have gotten several emails from rescues and I will be talking to one tonight. Thanks for your advice.


As I have told you all, the friend that gave me the bird lives diagonally across the street from me. It appears that the rescue lady that has been emailing me and threatening to sue me, showed up at her house yesterday while she was at work and was waiting for her. A friend of hers came over to pick up a movie that had been left in the door for him. As he approach, the lady took off. He got her license plate info and called my friend. It was definitely her because she has a specialized license plate. I surely do not trust this person, she knows were I live, so now I am constantly looking out my windows. It has got to come to an end!
Posted By: blondemss

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/13/05 10:02 PM

it sounds as though you have the legal right to get a restraining order against this woman. what she is doing is called stalking and it is considered a very big legal deal. i would keep every email, letter, get caller id and document everything. btw, stalking by email with threats is a federal crime.
Posted By: liviray

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/13/05 11:39 PM

Blondemss is Right...Those E-Mails are harrassment and they could be punished for them.

If for any reason this woman shows up again CALL THE COPS, actually you might want to call them and let them know that your being harrassed by a nut who thinks you have her bird...a bird she technically has no right to.

If she serves you with papers... She will then have to prove in court that it is her bird, and honestly I dont know how she could ever do that.I think someone else mentioned that further up. Dont let her rattle you, do not allow her in your house, dont even open the door for her....just call the cops if she shows up again.
As I mentioned before, I hope your not returning these E-Mails, that is only going to fuel the fire . I think this lady is totally imbalanced, and Im a little worried that she could be dangerous...just keep yourself safe, get some solid legal advice, and take care of your bird...and yourself.

Oh by the way...I dont think this rescue can do anything if they were to be mentioned by name, your not making false accusations...just asking a group of online friends advice reguarding a situation they pulled you into.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/13/05 11:56 PM

Well your gonna love this! I have not contacted this woman since the time we called to tell her we would not be returning the bird. I have never emailed her. EVER! My friend got an email from her today saying "You and your friend need to stop sending us harrassing emails". Go figure, this lady is nuts!
Posted By: Lis

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/14/05 01:39 PM

In regard to e-mail.E-mail is "discoverable" meaning that it can be used in court as evidence. Is this considered "e-mail" I don't know. I work for a very large insurance company and once a year we have to go to a meeting and be reminded of this. Also, just think about this, I am sure this person reads this site (by what you have stated prior)and knows what you are doing and thinking of doing next. Maybe get a number from some support person, and stop posting here until all is said and done. I am sure everyone here will NOT forget you, and keep you and your bird in their thoughts.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/14/05 08:22 PM

I have spoken to a lawyer and he has told me, I have nothing to worry about. Their beef is with my friend. I was also told to take all the emails I have received to my prosecutors office and file harrassment and intimidation. Especially the email that stated she had taped our conversation, because it is illegal in our state. He informed me of so much, but I can not say on this board. But all in our favor. I believe I can trust him, he has been our family attorney for years and has been a senator, congressman, and in the house. I have never needed an attorney in my life, but I know I have one and a damned good one!
I also spoke to an out of state rescue on the phone last night, and they informed me of the same thing. They should not be going after me. Once again, a lot was learned but I can not say, but they will help me in anyway, because it is not right for the bird.

Lis -
I am not worried about them reading this post, so what if they do? I have not used names or locations. The only thing that they will learn is that I am prepared, that I did my homework, and that I am taking this matter very seriously. They will learn that I will do whatever it takes to protect this bird from the harm that they will impose on him by removing him from the home he is thriving in. The BIRD WILL BE DEFENDED! They want to file suit? Then I will have the right to legally make this public, but only when I receive a summons to be in court. So in our opinion it is time for her to put up or shut up! We are ready!

Quote:
Oh by the way...I dont think this rescue can do anything if they were to be mentioned by name, your not making false accusations...just asking a group of online friends advice reguarding a situation they pulled you into.
I have to agree with you on this, but I do not want to cause a war zone on this board, if they are indeed reading it. I respect this site, as well as Jerry and all the moderators, I don't want to cause trouble. I will tell you that after all these days of researching, everyday I find out something new that makes my stomach hurt. It makes me want to do something about it. Maybe this all happened for a reason?
I will keep you posted!
Posted By: Robert Barta

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/14/05 10:08 PM

All good stuff. laugh laugh If nothing happens in a few days, I'd doubt they would bring any lawsuit anyway. laugh laugh Very happy to hear all this.
Posted By: jules

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/15/05 04:50 AM

AAALLLLRRRIIIIGGGHHHHHTTTTT! What great news!

...where's that li'l hand-clapping dude when we need him?

p.s. thanks for keeping us updated - I think your story hit too close to home for quite a few of us, as so many have rescued/rehomed companions. I know it's crossed my mind a time or two whether or not someone's going to call & want to reclaim a bird they've relinquished.
Jules
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/15/05 05:22 AM

I am so glad to hear that this is going in your favor....it is a sad day when a so called rescue would rather profit from a bird than see it in a good loving home. I hope that when this is all done and over with they will somehow be forced to stop the so called rescue work that they are doing and that the birds that are in their care are turned over to a rescue that has morals and cares about the birds, not the cash flow.
You will continue to be in our prayers and thoughts, I can't imagine what I would do if I were in your shoes...you are strong, and it is so obvious that your compassion for your bird is genuine.
Blessings to all, feathered and non feathered.
Angie
Posted By: Baxters Mama

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/16/05 07:48 AM

I hope you are sleeping better now. It sounds as if everything will be fine. I got stressed out just reading this thread. It sounds like those people are collectors and not a real rescue. Take good care of YOUR Too and give him an extra hug tonight.
Posted By: Marie & Peaches

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/16/05 06:23 PM

That is such great news! This may turn out to be a big victory for the birds! You can be sure that if anyone here finds themselves in the beginnings of a similar problem we will look to this thread and the way you handled to for guidance on how to proceed. Good job. Please keep us posted.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 06:31 PM

Well we are being sued for our U2. The papers from the court have arrived. They want 3600.00 (1800.00 for our U2) or the birds back. WE CAN NOT BELIEVE THE PRICE TAG THAT THEY HAVE PUT ON THESE BIRDS!!! WE CAN NOT BELIEVE THIS PERIOD!
We are due in court on 3/9/05. I am going to call all the newspapers and the local newschannels. Therefore I feel I am able to say now who this so called rescue organization is. If the moderators want to remove my post if they feel I crossed the line on this message board, I will understand. This is a disgrace to rescues everywhere and I have support from many of them. The rescue is Bird Placement Program in Medina, Ohio ran by Dottie Shira. Please view their site to see all the things that I have mentioned. Pay attention to the founders page and the fact that they are so desperate for money. Please say a prayer for us, I didn't think they would go through with it, how can they do this to our Too. frown angry

http://www.birdrescue.com/main.htm http://www.birdrescue.com/
Posted By: Robert Barta

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 06:40 PM

That is such bad news. This is crazy. I hope that in the end the bird comes out the winner. Good luck.
Posted By: Nikki's Mom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 06:53 PM

I can not beleave this money is all they are after here they do not care about the too at all angry will be keeping you in mt thoughts
Posted By: Popeye

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 06:55 PM

shovelhead--
Didn't you say in an earlier post that larger birds go into foster care and can't be adopted? That they only let smaller birds get adopted? They have this on their website:
Quote:
The larger parrots are adopted out to ONLY experienced bird owners.
You might want to copy every single page of their website now in case they change their website later.
Julie
Posted By: Karen M2

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 07:01 PM

I don't believe they have a case. How can they prove that the bird you have is the one they put in a foster home. Make them show proof that your bird is the same one they put in the foster home. It is then the foster homes responsiblity to show that this is the bird they "gave" to you.

Good luck and stick to your guns.

Karen
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 07:59 PM

This sickens me. I found this little excert from the web page.....

Due to a recent issue we have had with an ex-foster person of BPP living in Batavia, Ohio who tried trading / selling BPP's foster birds entrusted into her care for her own profit, BPP's parrot adoption requirements and adoption contract have been tightened.

BPP does not allow breeding, transferring, selling, removing of bands, or microchipping any parrot that goes through our organization. You will sign an adoption contract which is a legal document.

Donations for birds, are as applicable. All birds are subject to prior adoption at BPP's option. But once you are on our list there will be other birds you may be interested in. Birds are always coming in...

I hope that you are able to do enough to open peoples eyes before they allow these people to tak in the birds.....
Angie

i edit: I emailed the organization and told them what I thought. I hope that you are able to find enough people that will print your story and show the true colors of this so called bird rescue....
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 08:24 PM

I am not sure this isd aloud, but Angie can you forward the email you sent. hope.a@sbcglobal.net
She is also sueing for puinitive damages. " BPP has been damaged and continues to be damaged by the continued wrongful detention of these birds because BPP's purpose is to use its own professional judgment and skills to rehabilitate and place these birds in a home most suitable for them which offers the best opportunity for long term, successful placement" "the Allens have taken away Bpp's ability to properly care for these birds; to monitor and control the rehabilitation process; and to match the best home suited for them"
What a bunch of bull. All this after the bird has been in my loving care for a year. Where the heck were they during that year???
Posted By: corkytoo

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 08:50 PM

did you read the bit where they sued someone over a macaw and won? they also had the sherriff escort them to someone elses's property to retrieve an amazon. do they breed birds as well? i'm sure i read in you post that they do.
this is absolutely ridiculous they don't want your bird the greedy ars**holes want your money. this is probably how much they are short for their temporary building. if we all email her won't they clam they are being harrassed/intimidated. i really want to send one but i don't want it to go against shovelheadme mad
Posted By: hhanse57

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 08:56 PM

Disgusting! I'm so mad at this I can only imagine how you are feeling. With comments like 'Our organization is run purely for the love and well being of our birds!' & 'Adoptable birds will be placed in the best home possible' I just feel sick to my stomach. Do you think it would help if everyone sent them an email asking why if the bird is in a loving home it should be moved? Maybe you should ask your lawyer if you should invite them (and the police or your lawyer) over for a home visit to see the bird is well taken care of (including any vet records you have). And that's another idea, can you get your vet to provide a letter that the bird is healthy and happy? Do you have any dated photos over the past year as added proof that he's healthy?
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 08:57 PM

Yes I bet they can say that, so I don't suggest emailing them. However I would like to know if I am able to post my address so in case someone wants to write to us their thoughts and can take them to court with us. Personally I would like to post my address and then have this thread totally removed. I will send my address and if the moderators want to delete this WHOLE thread, please do.
The Allens,
P.O. Box 34216
Parma, Ohio
44134

I thank you all for the support you have shown, do not know what we would have done without it!
Posted By: hhanse57

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 09:03 PM

Are you on any of the Yahoo groups for parrot or cockatoos? If you posted the links to this story, you'd get alot of support.
Posted By: corkytoo

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 09:06 PM

you need to do what lrex suggested and counter sue. you want your vets fees, food,toys,boarding,and undisclosed damges for emotional trauma. this is all about money so hit em where it hurts. i have written to you. will post it tomorrow. please use it in court if you feel it will help your case. i am in england so i don't think it will be of much use. have they got anyway to prove the bird id theirs? is he banded or microchipped?
Posted By: Roka

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 10:16 PM

I am so sorry. You have to decide now what is the best way to keep your 'too. Is it best to just pay to ensure you don't loose the bird or should you counter sue for costs and boarding etc etc.

I am very much a fighter when it comes to our business but if this was about Roka I would probably pay them the $1800 when you work out the lawyers fees, the time, the stress, the chance of loosing a lot more money and much more importantly the chance of going through all this and still loosing your 'too.

I know that is what they are hoping for but I truely believe they will not rest until they either have the money or your 'too and I would not be surprised if the offer to "buy" him is withdrawn very quickly. People like this like to smell good and what better way than to class you as the evil villain and in they ride on their white horses to save a poor defenceless creature - quite a propaganda/marketing ploy.

I would rather see the 'too in a loving caring home rather than moved from that environment so if money is a major issue I would be willing to add to any collection/fundraising.
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 10:20 PM

Mr. & Mrs Allen,

I am a NEW TOO owner and I will also write a letter! Good luck sweetie!
Posted By: corkytoo

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 10:21 PM

i'm with roka. could you open a birdie trust fund? i'm sure there would be a lot of folks willing to help. just for the satisfaction of sticking it to the rescue
Posted By: birds2rescue

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 10:24 PM

All of you are being lied to. Here are the facts which will soon be posted on BPP's website along with proper documention to prove our statements are FACT. This is the letter that went out to several animal rescuers:

Do you know Janine Hudak-Goodwin soul_searcher@sbcglobal.net of Parma, Ohio? She use to work at the Parma Animal Shelter but now works at the Cleveland APL.

My bird rescue Bird Placement Program ( BPP ) is taking her to court. She is a chronic liar even about unimportant matters. She fostered two Umbrella Cockatoo parrots for us under a signed contract and we just found out she gave them both away. We know where the one bird is, with her friend Hope Allen in Parma. She won't tell us where the other one is other than with another friend. Janine won't give them back and told Hope that if it goes to court to just say the bird died. Janine herself told me she told Hope to say that. Not very smart of Janine to admit this to me.

We turned the matter over to our lawyer the other day. I will not rest until these two birds are back safely with us. What is odd is all along I have told Janine if the birds are too much for her or she can't care for them anymore I will take them back. She kept telling me she wanted to keep fostering them and eventually adopt them. We felt sorry for her because she was a personal friend and going through a divorce. Here all along she gave them away.

We have a signed contract with her in 2/04 to foster. We found out that in 4/04 she gave them away. We did not find out until 1/25/05 when her friend Hope Allen emailed BPP wanting to give the bird away due to allergies. This means Janine has lied to us for about ten months. Janine was going through a divorce in 4/04 so we didn't want to upset her by taking the birds back and she kept assuring us the birds were doing great. She kept changing her phone number and email address so it made it really hard to get in contact with her. She claimed she did this because of her husband bothering her. Finally my partner would periodically drive by her house and stop in to check up on things. When the birds were not there Janine told us the birds were at her friend Jungle Bob's house but she was getting them back. Another time she said the birds were at her new boyfriend's house but she was bringing them back to her house.

Janine was a personal friend so I never thought she would do such a thing.

Feb 5, 2005 Janine received a demand letter from our lawyer. Feb 6th Janine had her boss at the Cleveland APL call animal control in Brecksville on BPP partner Fran. Janine lied to her boss about the situation. The officer was so impressed with the exceptional quality of care that the birds were getting that she said she would like to use us as a contact to refer birds to. Now in an email days prior Janine told me she did not work for the Cleveland APL but the Cleveland Kennels. I called the APL last week and Janine answered the phone. Also in Janine's last email to us she forgot to take off her signature line as she did in previous emails. Her signature line stated she did work for the Cleveland APL.

I think this is horrible for a fellow animal rescuer and APL worker to do such a thing. She knows how rescues operate. She signed BPP's foster contract agreeing to our terms. To just give our rescues away is horrifying. All these months when Janine was giving us all these different stories regarding where the birds were, we were stupid and fluffed it off as stress from her divorce. Now we realize she intentionally lied to cover up her dishonesty.

If any of you have had less than positive dealings with Janine Hudak - Goodwin could you email me? I would like as much information as I can gather before our court date.

Janine Goodwin who works at the Cleveland APL had her boss contact Brecksville animal control on my BPP partner Fran Filak. Janine lied to her boss and told him Fran had over 200 birds in horrible conditions at her home.

Sunday the Animal Control Officer arrived and was given a tour of the house by Fran. There was about 40 birds, mostly small birds in excellent condition. As Fran told the Officer, about 25 were BPP's and getting homes within two weeks.

The Officer was so impressed with the living conditions and care the birds were getting that we are now her contact should she get in any pet birds. This Officer immediately contacted Janine's boss and chewed him out for not getting the truth before wasting her time. He was very upset and said he would have a talk with Janine on Monday regarding being lied to.
Posted By: Robert Barta

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 10:43 PM

birds2rescue - from reading what you have to say, your problem is with Janine, not with the current owner of the Too. If you are concerned with the well being of the birds you are purporting to help you will let this one go. Please do the right thing, do it for the bird for it has found a good home with a loving caring person. Things did not go the way that you run your Rescue, that's now in the past, please do what is right for the bird and live up to the purpose of your business.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 10:44 PM

First of all Ms. Shira ... I am NOT Janine. I am looking out for the cockatoo. He has mutilated before and he will again if taken away from his home. What good is it going to do you to take this bird back? $$$$ You claim you are in desperate need of a "temporary" outdoor building to house ALL the birds you have now. So this U2 will be placed in another foster home or end up in your "outdoor building". I do not care about Janine and your problems. I care about this cockatoo, who is striving in his home. HEALTHY & HAPPY! I do not understand why WE are being sued when I have done nothing wrong besides care and love a bird who needed a home, a forever home which is what I want. I offered on the phone to adopt the bird and was told no. I was lied to and was told that the original owners were sueing for the birds back. The only one lying here is this organization. This organization is not looking out for the best interest of the animals they rescue. If they did, they would work something out to make sure that our Too would not be put through the stress of being placed in another home. Self mutilators, feather plucking, etc etc. Does that even concern you? Well I have been through it with this cockatoo. I cared and loved him back to health. I do not see why it is so important for you to have him back! Once again, everything I have said to you (the board) is true. I am not Janine and I do not control the things she says or do. Also, this organization did not send me anything showing proof of ownership until the courts sent me papers. Does anyone care about the bird, or is it just the money? Am I wrong in thinking that the price that was put on this bird a bit high? She had the bird for 2 days, according to her. $1800. for a bird she rescued $$$$ ???? This is all about getting money, not the bird.

And if you notice, all she wrote about was Janine. I know some of it is false, just like the lies she told me to intimidate me in to returning the bird. If Janine breeched her contract, then why am I being sued?? $$$$$
Posted By: Ron Pack

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 10:44 PM

Who said what to who doesn't mean jack squat.....what about the bird ?
Has your rescue even attempted to make any home visits to see how this bird is doing ? How do you know this bird isn't in the best home possible NOW or do you even care ? And if the bird is in the best home possible, why in the hell would you even think about up-rooting him now?
I can see both sides of the story here, but the only thing that really matters is the poor bird !!! If your rescue is really about adopting instead of the money, then do what's right for the bird.... angry
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 10:47 PM

SO WHAT?

IMHO you should LEAVE the bird where it is at!

I mean you say you care for birds so much then you would know how much taking that TOO aaway from the Allen's will cause it distress!
I think the Allen's maybe have gotten duped by this Janine but you are gonna have to understand that the Allens have paid with their OWN money to take care of the bird! It sounds as if they are a great bird family!
You need to leave the CARETAKERS alone and go after the one who duped you!

You sueing the allens THAT MUCH for the bird sounds VERY greedy and not very much interest in this birds welfare! IMO
******NO PROBLEM GREEDY BIRD RESCUE LADY! YOU ARE A BIRD IDIOT! YOU KNOW NOTHING! WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THIS BIRD IF IT IS AGAIN RIPPED FROM A COMFY HOME.....? :::FEATHERS EVERY WHERE:::

I am so mad I am online checking my airline miles! Seems we need to have ALOT of TOO people with birds in hand show up at the courthouse WITH TV cameras!!!!!!! Serious I will be trying to book a flight tonight! anyone with me??? how about a cpl dozen P*&^% Off too owners with birds waiting for the court doors to open!
Posted By: cujos_mom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 10:54 PM

Hi,

I'm so sorry that you are facing this and I will be holding out best thoughts and prayers for you that in the end your baby will remain in your care.

I am not a lawyer but a paralegal with a fair grasp of the law in general. It would seem to me that the lawsuit should be against your friend who gave you the bird and properly, they should be the one's then to defend a breach of contract action. Have you seen the contract your friends signed with the rescue? Did they agree to not transfer or sell the bird to different owners? If so, it is likely that the rescue would prevail in any lawsuit against those people. But they have sued you. Even if your attorney was sucessful in having the suit against you dropped, here in Canada it would be a summary judgment - dismissing the case because it had no legal merit, the rescue people would likely then just file properly against your friend (or have they already?) in which case, should they be sucessful, your friend would most likely be ordered to deliver the bird back to them, unless she could prove some compelling reason not to do so. The law unfortunately is mostly black and white and not swayed by emotion. If I were the judge I would let you keep your friend without a moments hesitation. I wished that was the way it worked. I hope and pray that you can find a way to resolve this with the rescue people. You mentioned that they wanted $1800.00. Is this a normal adoption fee?

p.s. from reading their web site and their message posted here, in my opinion these rescue people will not be overcome, in this instance, by appeals for compassion.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 11:03 PM

I also want to clarify something. I did not call the rescue to take the U2, I called my Avian vet and they referred me to this organization in case I needed to find a home. I did talk to a Fran and told her (bawling my eyes out) that I might have to find my Too a new home due to allergies. I also emailed her back telling her that my immunoligist said not to get rid of anything, that there was help for me!
The fact of the matter is that I will do what I have to to save this bird from the harm of being removed. As all rescues are aware, cockatoos are one of the hardest birds to place in loving homes do to the constant attention they need, as well as the screaming. There are way too many in rescues, why add one more for no other reason then financial gain? Our family loves and cares deeply for this bird or I would have never posted on this message board. We have received an overwhelming number of emails from people and rescues all over the world. That proves that what they are doing is wrong, not for us, but for the best interest of the birds. Like I said in my first post, Dottie "doesn't care what we think" as far as the well being of this bird.
Posted By: Lrex

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 11:03 PM

It is becoming abundandly clear that there is one clear loser here and it is the bird. And the very organization that is supposed to be interested in his well being is the architect of his disaster. I agree with Cujos Mom that compassion and common sense will not sway the greed and nastiness perpetrated on these innocent parties (bird and human). The only way to fight back is to make a hit against the very thing driving this action - money. So, I guess, if I tell two friends, and they tell two friends and so on and so on.... Before you know it, the entire bird loving public- not just us cockatoo crazies, will know exactly what this organization is all about and then I guess donations will stop coming in........ That is the power of the internet. And, one more thing, if I were "Janine" I would get a lawyer and sue that woman for the public humiliation she is causing both here and on her own website. People, when you start naming names and slinging mud on the world wide web, private boards or not, you might as well publish it on the front page of the N.Y. Times. It is slander and there are consequences.
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 11:16 PM

Dottie Take a hike! This board is for the LOVE of the bird which obviously is not what you are capable of! What you are capable of is seeing $$$$$$$$$
Posted By: cujos_mom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 11:24 PM

Birds2rescue,

I noticed from reading your web site that you were established in 1987. You have obviously been in this business then a very long time and taking your words at face value, your operation is clean and well maintained as evidenced by the officer you spoke about in your post. That being the case, why would you want to jeopardize your public image by seeming to be more interested in receiving money for this particular bird rather then working with the current care givers to come to a resolution that would be in the best interest of the bird? Yes, a contract is a contract and you have to maintain your business practises but in the end, what purpose will it serve not to give the Allen's the opportunity to adopt the bird? Surely if you proceed in this manner your company's goodwill could easily be impacted. Am I right in understanding that you are a non profit organization?
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 11:27 PM

Non Profits can be revoked for dozens of reasons!

When was the last time the IRS checked out her BIRD RESCUE???

All it takes a a phone call to the IRS to have them climbing all-over ya Ms. Dottie.......

(leaving MYTOOS to head on over to the IRS website)

[b] BTW I DID CALL, PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE CRAP SHE IS TALKING $WISE, MAKES ME THINK THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THEIR FINANCING WHICH MEANS THEY PROBABLY CHEATING SOMEWHERE![b]
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 11:29 PM

Lrex is right. Our Too will be the loser. If I had 1800.00 to donate for the cockatoo, I would do it in a minute. But I do not see how they are entilted to that much for a rescue bird. I have offered to pay adoption fees, but no, she won't accept that. I would have never taken this bird if I knew the consequences. Now this Too is apart of our family, loved and cared for it and it is about to be ripped out of our house for no reason other then "because she did not choose us" and for money. Well this Too chose us and it shows by his health and happiness here. Guess it does not matter. I am so upset, I can not even think straight. I do not want this to become a battleground, I respect this site too much for that. So to Jerry and the moderators, feel free to remove the thread and I am sorry for any trouble I have caused by posting my story here. All I can say is I hope God is watching out for our Too and if he has to be returned that no harm comes to him.
If the thread is removed, I will not be posting anymore of course, so I want to once again THANK YOU ALL, for the support you have shown.
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 11:37 PM

I don't know Shovelhead if they didnt want ya around I think they would have not let this thread go this far DONT GO AWAY!
Posted By: cujos_mom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 11:42 PM

Shovelheadme,

Please don't feel bad for posting this story here. I, for one, hope that if the moderators of this board feel that the thread is getting out of hand, they will lock it rather than remove it?

I think the rescue's own words here and on their website speaks volumes.
Posted By: corkytoo

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/18/05 11:47 PM

i can't see this being removed as it is all about they very thing the mods are fighting so hard for. the welfare of birds. there are a lot of people here that are supporting you and your bird. this is disgusting. have you got through to the irs julie? i beleive miss dottie may have bitten off more than she can chew. there is no way she is thinking about the care of the bird if she is so willing to pull a mutilator away from it's family to put it in a temporary foster home to then adopt it out to people that she chooses. that poor bird will be bald by the time it makes to foster care. where's the compassion in that. how the hell are they gonna prove it's the same bird? keep fighting sweetie we're all behind you
Posted By: Robert Barta

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 12:01 AM

shovelheadme - whether you post anymore or not in the near term is your choice (and I hope you continue to post freely as you need our support), but least come back and tell us the outcome as we at mytoos are now emotionally involved in this. Thank you.
Posted By: tj baer

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 12:05 AM

i am really an honest person! but sometimes the only way to deal with situations like this is to do what you have to do. I would never give back your baby! To put it in the hands of people who obviously have no regard for it's health or happiness. NOT A CHANCE! I agree with what someone previously said - they can't make you give back the bird - maybe only the $$ for it. For all they know maybe it flew away or passed away. How in the world do they really know where it is when they haven't seem to care too much in the last few years. Do what you have to do but don't let them get your baby!
Posted By: Ron Pack

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 12:08 AM

I suspect Janine had some pretty good reasons for not wanting these birds to go back to BPP...

Any way we can get her to come here? eek
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 12:17 AM

Mrs Allen, you came on here expecting this and it has happened. I would mortgage my house before I gave up my 'Too. We all know you have done everything in your power to prepare for this. Please, keep your head about you and start to prepare. You have over two weeks to get your ducks in a row. Do just that. Assemble all your accumulated information and support documents. Stay calm. If you need money, contact one of your bank officers and explain the situation.

The Allens,
P.O. Box 34216
Parma, Ohio
44134

This is your address which you stated publicly. Everyone on Mytoos who wishes to contribute can do that. We have helped other members and we can help you. Please do what you can, now, folks. You know how the mail is.

It is a shame and a disgrace that it has come to this. What rescue, in it's right mind, would yank a well loved family member like this. It pretty well pulls the blinders off for this group, doesn't it?

My wife and I wish you well and will be praying for you and yours. Please just stay calm and get this over with.
Posted By: corkytoo

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 12:26 AM

how can we donate over here in england? do i need to get some money changed into american dollars?
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 12:33 AM

If you are in a foreign country to the US, and I know a lot of you are, it is probably better that you convert the money to US dollars and then put it in money order or cashier check form.
Posted By: hhanse57

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 12:41 AM

birds2rescue: If you are truly interested in the welfare of this too, then you will be more than willing to go to the Allen's home to see the enviroment the bird is living in, along with any vet records, photos, ect that can be shown to you to prove this bird is receiving the best of care.
Are you willing to do this?
Posted By: Ron Pack

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 12:41 AM

Exactly Charlie....
Quote:
It is a shame and a disgrace that it has come to this. What rescue, in it's right mind, would yank a well loved family member like this.
Any rescue truly concerned with the birds well being would at least make a half a** effort to do an in home inspection and evaluate the situation...then and only then should a decission be made as to whether the bird should stay or go.

My personal opinion is... if Dottie can walk out of court with a pocket full of money, she'll be smiling ear to ear and the bird will soon be forgotten about.

Rescue ? Yeah right.... and Taco Bell is a Mexican Phone Co.......
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 12:44 AM

In front of all the members of MyToo's we are asking Dottie Shira to drop the suit against US and allow us to adopt our Umbrella Cockatoo. We feel that $300.00 is an appropriate adoption fee considering the cost we have had in providing a cage and everything else he has needed. She is more than welcome to come to our home to see how he is with his family, to view family photos of the U2 with our family and read our numerous letters in response to the care and love we have given the bird. Clearly it will show that in the best interest of a rescuers work, that this bird should not be removed from his home or he can once again self mutilating. We all know you have been reading the last posts since your own reply, so I am asking you to respond to this one. May we please adopt this cockatoo legally for the sake of the bird?

Also, if you go to this link MyToos members: http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/birdrescue.html and read "I WANT TO ADOPT A PARROT, OR A PARROT THAT TALKS"
and also click the link to petfinder.com, you will see she already has 3 up for adoption. How many more does she need to have when she can not place the ones she already has.

I want to end this peacefully. I believe that our offer is fair for a rescue bird that was in their possession for only 2 days. This is our last attempt to end this peacefully, with the least amount of consequences for all involved, including and most importantly, the birds.
Posted By: hellobaby

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 01:18 AM

I did have a couple of questions... if this Janine person is so full of bull, is it possible that she lied about where shovelheadme's U2 came from? If this U2 is actually what BPP considers to be it's "property", is it their burden to prove it? And it seems to me that the problem lies with Janine - not the Allen's. Perhaps I'm just thinking out loud here... I also believe the well-being of this bird is more important than "property". I believe this bird already has a wonderful forever home. For an organization to claim that they care for the well-being of the birds above all and act in a contradictory (seemingly GREEDY) manor over this certainly paints a bad picture of them in the eyes of those of us who DO care for birds.

I think the Allen's offer is more than fair to keep THEIR bird and clear the matter up. It seems to me that if BPP truly cared about the well-being of the birds, they would have INSISTED on seeing them long before a YEAR had passed! Instead, they wait until they figure they can profit from things?? I think that if there's grounds for a lawsuit, it's with this Janine person - not the Allens! I think it's highly detrimental to BPP to pursue these loving, caring people in such a greedy manor. Their credibility is at stake here. Perhaps their greed means more to them than their credibility. People are free to give their OPINIONS worldwide now ... and fast! It doesn't take much effort to recommend one rescue and tell people not to waste their time with another who they have come to believe doesn't truly care for the birds! I would certainly be more than happy to see to it that TRUE rescues receive money INSTEAD of BPP in the future. I think many others would feel the same way.

Lynne
Posted By: birds2rescue

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 01:30 AM

Adoption request is DENIED.

Mrs. Allen:

1. Never applied back to our attorney's letter.

2. Has not gone through or asked to go through BPP's proper adoption screening.

3. Did not contact us when the bird was first transfered to her.

4. Has not been honest with us from the start.

5. Mrs. Allen contacted Fran wanting to give the bird away. Homes we provide for these birds are forever homes. This was not the case here since Mrs. Allen was looking to dump the bird per her email dated Jan 25, 2005 to Fran.

6. BPP has been harassed and slandered by Mr. Allen.

7. BPP has been slandered by Mrs. Allen on this very forum.

8. Mrs. Allen knows we do NOT want money for these birds. Our primary concern is the safe return of the two Cockatoos to BPP. Our attorney had to assign a value to these birds for court reasons.

9. According to our records these birds still belong to BPP. This matter will be settled in court of law ( not small claims by the way ) where all the TRUE FACTS will be presented on March 9, 2005. BPP is confident that a judge will see past all the lies and grant BPP possession of these two Cockatoos based of our years of experience with Cockatoos and our very strict adoptive screening process.

Discussion OVER.
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 01:38 AM

Please find below copies of the emails that I sent to the rescue requesting the return of the cockatoos. I feel that it is only fair that I share this with them members of this board:

To whom it may concern,
As I am sure that you are aware there are many of
us out here now that have been informed about the
cockatoo that is already in a very good stable
environment that you are trying to get back through
legal procedures. I just want to say, as a bird owner
and lover my self, I am deeply concerned with your
tactics. Don't you think that if the bird is settled
into a loving home it should stay there? Are you not
aware of the fact that remhoming a cockatoo can cause
undue stress to it? I can not believe that there are
people out there that are running a bird rescue that
obviosly do not have the birds best interest at heart.
In my opinion I beleive that you should get all the
publicity possable in order to show your true colors.
It is very obvious that you are more concerned about
the money that you are the birds..... You sicken me.
Angela Granheim

This is the return email that I got back:
We are not wanting money. We only want the birds back. The courts needed a value on the birds for a court case.

Let me ask you this:
1. How do you know where the birds are now is a good home?

2. How do you know our organization does not have a better home for these birds?

3. Have you visited our organization or checked our references?

4. Have you visited Hope's home and seen the Cockatoos?

For the sake of those birds we will not stop until they are safe with our organization. We ARE doing this for the sake of the birds. I feel sorry for you because you and everyone on that forum have been lied to. People like rooting for the underdog and they think it is Hope but it is NOT.

We cannot say anything further until after the court case. We will post all the facts, documentations, court rulings... on a web page for all of you to read. You will then see why we needed to get those birds back. Believe me, there is a lot more to this story. Please for the sake of these birds and all unwanted birds, only believe facts backed by documentation.

Sincerely,

BPP Staff
Bird Placement Program
Parrot Refuge Est. 1987
This is my final response
Dear BPP,
Thankyou for your reply. I realize that there are
always two sides to every story....and I appreciate
your side as well. I think tha my concerns are
here....Why such a large ammount for a monetary value
on the bird? I own an umbrella cockatoo that just
recently turned one year old and she cost me $1600.00.
She was rescued by me from my sister, but that is
the price that was paid for the bird at a national pet
store chain.
From my understanding Hope really cares about her
bird and loves it, and I think that she has it's best
interest in mind. Maybe I am wrong, but I know that
owning a cockatoo is an awful lot of hard work, and if
she didn't love and want the bird, I think that she
would be readily willing to return the bird to you. I
don't think this is a matter of her being vendictive
or greedy....I think that she knows that the bird is
no longer plucking, it has a clean bill of health from
the vet and that it is loved. If you take this bird
out of the home that it is doing well in, what will
happen to it? Will it pluck again? Will it self
mutilate? Will it develope neurotic behaviors? No
one can see into the future, but I can see that these
are patterns that many cockatoos follow due to change
in homes. If you do get the bird back to you intend
on keeping it at your rescue or rehoming it again?
And why on earth do you charge such a large ammount
for the adopotion of a rescue bird? I would think
that the birds best interest would be at heart, not
the income that you can make from it.
I don't know....if it were me and I were in your
shoes, I would do home checks, look at vet records,
and make sure that the bird is thriving in it's home
as it sounds like it is. Then, if you find by a
professional that it isn't, take legal action. If you
find that the bird is doing well and is happy and well
adjusted, then I would chalk it up to being a
successful adoption, even though it may not have gone
the way that you would have liked.
Please look into your heart. I don't know you and I
don't know hope, I do know that these are fragile
creatures that were never meant to be in our homes
period....they need love, understanding, time and
patiance.....I hope that you do the right thing.
I will also let you know that I am cross posting your
email and this reply to the board that I
frequent....if you have a problem with that please
notify the moderators as they do a wonderful job on
that site.
Thankyou.
Angie
--- BPP Rescue <birdrescue5@hotmai

I realize that this is a long post....I hope that no one is offended by what was written.

I can only hope that this works out for the best. I don't understand how this can proceed in legal court other than small claims court as it is a civil property arrangement, but I am about to do some research and find out.
Angie
Posted By: liviray

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 01:47 AM

I read this birds rescue site two weeks ago, They have trouble with everyone...and bring it on themselves....

Hey Im headed out to my mail box to send a check...and Im also forwarding this to everyone I know so they will have a clear picture of whats going on...and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BIRD, NOTHING TO DO WITH ADOPTION POLICY...AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH MONEY!!!!!

I dont think this thread should be removed...I think this "rescue" should be called on the carpet for what they are...EXTORTIONISTS....Cause if they had this birds best interest at heart they never would have offered a settlement!!@!!!!
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 01:58 AM

After doing some research on Ohio Law I have run accrossed the following....this is the small claims court book for the state of Ohio [url=www.ag.state.oh.us/online_publications/ consumer_protection/smallclaimscourtWEB.pdf]web page[/url]
It is in a PDF file so you will need Adobe to read it. It will allow a person to sue for up to $3000.00 and the BPP may have chosen to go above that ammount to stay out of small claims court.

Also, file a countersuit. File for punitive damages, the stress that the bird was under while at the rescue, the negligance that the rescue is guilty of for not doing home inspections. the cost of your vet bills, food, toys, cages and all other things provided.

Lastly, sue for mental anguish. This is a beloved pet. I know how hard it is to lose a parrot, they are like one of your children.

I think that you could do more monetary damage than they could ever dream of.

I also can assure you that you are not the one that they should be going after. It is the person that gave you the bird that should be listed as the defendant in this case.

Scare tactics are being used and that is harrassment, so call your Attorney Generals office and file a formal complaint as soon as you can....

Angie
Posted By: Lrex

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 02:14 AM

Angie:
I got an almost identical response to my emails with this person. Word for word. Like a form letter. I am forwarding everything to Hope for her records. I trust that everyone that cares here will continue to support this cause. I'm here to help angry angry angry
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 02:44 AM

Bird2rescue

You are soo full of bullcrap and you are VERY lucky I don't live in OHIO or what ever place you call yourself living.
I have been a member of the Southern California Bassethound Rescue for over 4 yrs now and NEVER had they ripped a dog from a home like you plan to do with this U2, which tells me and everyone else on this board that you are so full of bu77crap!

If you are hurting for foster care so bad, why are you burdening your so called rescue with another bird? Because it is NOT the bird but the money, and you can sit and tell us
Quote:
Mrs. Allen knows we do NOT want money for these birds. Our primary concern is the safe return of the two Cockatoos to BPP. Our attorney had to assign a value to these birds for court reasons.
Yeah right lady! As for calling yourself a bird lover we will see. . .
Posted By: Marie & Peaches

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 03:03 AM

BPP Rescue,

I have not been to your rescue but there is one aspect of any rescue that draws me back and moves me to recommend it to others. The bottom line has to be a true interest in the welfare of the birds. This cockatoo is thriving because of the Allen's. BPP should do everything it can to give the Allen's a chance to adopt their parrot because they have proven they are the best care givers for him. He is settled in and is thriving under their care. He is already a success story. Isn't that what a true rescue facility wants for the parrots they take in? The Allen's are willing to pay an adoption fee for this parrot even though it is money not easily available. In this unusual situation since the Allen's became involved innocently you should ask for an adoption fee of just $1.00 for this Too. Please, you and the Allen's should be sharing the same compassion and appreciation that this one cockatoo has been given a second chance at a good secure life in a forever home. Please reconsider your actions. The Allen's are just one pebble of hope dropped into the vast lake of abandoned parrots. They are just one pebble, that's all, just one pebble but they made such a huge ripple of hope in the life of this one parrot. Please don't deny this bird the security it has found with the Allen's. There are not enough people willing to take in these very needy, high maintenance parrots. This one is very fortunate. I can't understand why you are unwilling to add another ripple of hope to this lake of unwanted neglected parrots. Please reconsider.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 03:09 AM

Dottie:

1. I never responded to your lawyer - I was advised against it until I received a certified mailing.

2. When you lied and told me the original owners were sueing you and the bird had to be in court that Monday, you said you were assured to win and I asked could I have the bird back, to adopt him and you flatly stated, no...but it could be brought up in front of the board. What board, you and Fran? So, yes I did ask to adopt.

3. I did not even know that Janine did not have ownership of the bird until I talked to you. Do you think I would take this bird knowing it could be taken away from me????

4. We have been honest with you from the start. The first thing you told us was your lie about being sued. You flat out lied to intimidate us into returning the bird. The only thing we "lied" about was telling you we would return the bird. Then after staying up all night talking and thinking of how this will affect the bird, did we decide it was not in his best interest. Just because someone, someone I do not even know, calls up and tells me to bring this bird back by tomorrow... I am suppose to do it. How do I know you are who you say you are.

5. I contacted Fran telling her I might have to find a new home for my bird due to allergies and I called for information because I did not just want anyone to take him. That alone should tell you I am responsible enough just not to pawn him off on just anybody. I wanted to see how your rescue worked. AND I HAVE THE EMAILS TOO, AND YOU JUST LIED ONCE AGAIN!

6. How has Mr. Allen harrassed you or slandered you? The last time we have had any contact with you or your organization was on 1/29 when my husband said we will not be returning the bird. You are the one who has been harrassing us through emails. Which I do have and have been advised my attorney to take to the prosecutors office and sue you for illegally taping a phone conversation, which you admitted to in your email. Ohio law - you can not record a phone conversation without the knowledge or consent of the other party. This surely can not be used in court, call the phone company and they will tell you. So I might look into that further.

7. I have not slandered anybody. I have NEVER mentioned our names, the birds name, your organization, or the state I am in until you made it all public by filing a suit against us, which is public record. I have not slandered you in anyway, and if I did, you just did the same to us on this very forum. We were merely stating FACTS that I do have documentation for.

8. At no time prior to this suit being filed, did I receive documentation of any kind showing that this organization owned the birds. An adoption contract was included with the letter from the lawyer to Janine, but that pertains to Janine, not me.

We look forward to seeing you on 3/9/05. We have been prepared and like you said there is more to the story, I can't wait to find out what it is. You said it will be posted publicly on your web site, well.... the publicity works both ways.
Thanks for the edit, I was going to delete it myself!
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 03:22 AM

All of my MYTOOS buddies,

I have 1 question?

If Dottie thinks she is so right in her convictions why is she in here talking? Is she thinking she would get support for taking a TOO away from a HAPPY place, because MS. SCHIRA could'nt control the animals she had in her care in the first place?
Quote:
When the birds were not there Janine told us the birds were at her friend Jungle Bob's house but she was getting them back. Another time she said the birds were at her new boyfriend's house but she was bringing them back to her house.

Janine was a personal friend so I never thought she would do such a thing.
(sounds like ya have NO control here!)

Again it is all about HER and not the bird!
Ms. Schira why are you wasting hundreds of dollars that could be used for the birds you have already on this one bird that already has a forever home! ANOTHER waste of money! I would be pissed if I was donating to your "RESCUE" to find out your using the money to fight in court over MUTE issue! You have not a CLUE to what this bird needs! I can tell you he does'nt need to be back in your barn or what ever your building.

You denied the Allens adoption? Yet you gave the birds to someone who handed them off 2 months later? HUH? am I missing something Ms. Schira or have ya been sniffing bird seed?

MAD DAMN RIGHT I AM MAD!
I will be spending ALL day tomarrow writing letters and calling people I know here in LA~!
Posted By: Tweet

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 04:01 AM

sorry if I mess this up, this is my first post. Shovelheadme, I tried to write you in private and it said I couldn't... moderators, am I allowed to ask for someone to write me in private and can I post my email address for them to do that? I don't want to break any rules but my computer is VERY slow tonight and I was trying to read all the FAQ's and it is giving me a hard time (my computer)

anyway, hope this isn't against the rules.

Doreen
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 04:22 AM

i dont know when I will get my registration to chat butI do have a chatroom on MSN if ya all want to try it it is called ChatTOOS on MSN chat! I will be in there if ya want to chat
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 04:33 AM

Can't find it Julie, can you post a link maybe?
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 04:50 AM

sorry all ya have to have a paid subscription now on MSN to chat When did that happen?
Posted By: Tweet

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 05:00 AM

you can start a private yahoo group and have chats in there...... it is pretty easy.
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 05:03 AM

I want to talk real time on chat! I wil set that up now! I am also ON MSN Messanger right now under CHELLEGAL64
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 05:23 AM

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OurToos/chat

Come on overpeeps!
Posted By: Tweet

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 05:26 AM

I started a group on Yahoo that anyone can join. It is about KeepingYourRescueParrot. Can I post the address here? I don't want to break any rules.

doreen
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 05:48 AM

Doreen, you can post a link as long as it doesn't even mention (or have links to) breeders, bird shops, or the selling of birds.
Posted By: Tweet

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 06:07 AM

THANKS Charlie. Being a rescuer-- I wouldn't advertise breeders... <smile>

Here is the info for the group. Everyone is welcome. PLEASE BE AWARE. BECAUSE ANYONE CAN JOIN.... ANYONE CAN READ WHAT YOU WRITE.

I started the group to talk about the topic- keeping your rescue birds. PLEASE no bashing. I understand everyone's feelings about this "case" but be fair- keep it to the facts and what you DO know legally, not just what you think.

Again, anyone is welcome. I can totally understand the need to talk about this. Placing birds is one of the hardest things I do in my life. Finding the right homes is sometimes impossible. BUT when we KNOW someone is good-- they throws all the rules OUT THE WINDOW.

Post message: KYRP@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: KYRP-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: KYRP-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner: KYRP-owner@yahoogroups.com

JUST GO TO THIS HOME PAGE AND JOIN. I can't get to the mail right now... just join
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KYRP/

doreen
again, thanks Charlie, I didn't want to break rules
smile
Posted By: Alleaa

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 06:30 AM

Can someone please tell me how Dottie Schira can get away with advertising that she is a non-profit with an EIN,,,she is not. Also if you put her name in google you will see that she also has a dog rescue & a sugar guilder one, I smell a rat.
Posted By: hellobaby

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 07:07 AM

Well, the good thing is that BPP has now shown its true colors in a venue of 3000+ members. My prayers will be with the Allen's and their U2 that the judge will see through BPP just as we all have here and do what is right for the bird! I, along with the many other voices who have witnessed this, will be sure from this point on to direct people in search of rescues to donate to, toward other DESERVING rescues who truly do care for the welfare of the birds. BPP has brought this upon themselves, and from what I understand, slander isn't slander if it's the truth!

Lynne
Posted By: Ron Pack

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 07:47 AM

It's hard to take a rescue serious when you see crap like this on the net......

http://www.birdrescue.com/photos.htm
http://www.avianrescue.org/bc-oh.html

According to GOOGLE....this is one busy woman...
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 08:15 AM

HomeTweet, a new member, started a board on yahoo for my cause??? Here is the email I was sent by her:
In KYRP@yahoogroups.com, home_tweet_home@y... wrote:
>
> I know the recent talk about the cockatoo on the cockatoo boards hits
> many people close to home. When you adopt a parrot, and it doesn't
> matter from where/who you expect that it should be allowed to live
> with you. There are some rescues that have rules you must follow,
> providing that is where you got the bird from. I am NOT involved in
> the law, I do not want to give advice, but I think this is a real
> lesson for all people- the rescues, those who want to adopt from them
> and those who get birds from private people.
>
>
> I am sorry but I was not able to read all the posts invloved with
> this one particular bird and I want to follow the story correctly.
> That is actually why I created this list, so we can hear from those
> involved.
>
> Can someone tell me the details, kind of like in dragnet, just the
> facts <smile>. I know it is easy to get caught up in the emotion of
> it all, but where did the bird originally come from, who adopted it
> from the rescue, did that person then go on their own to place it
> with someone else? I don't mean for it to be repeated, but I kind of
> got lost in all the posts about it. Also, what is the birds name? I
> hate to refer to a bird (or a human) as him/her etc.
>
> thanks again for joining. I hope we all learn something.
>
> Doreen

This is the response to her post:

Doreen

All I can say is this rescue got bashed for no reason by people who
know nothing about this situation.

The rescue got in two beautiful, loving and well adjusted Umbrella
Cockatoos. A foster home had them less than 2 months and gave them away.

Now teh rescue finds out that one of them is picking its feathers and
self mutilating. I just want to cry. That bird was perfect in the
rescues care. That bird was in perfect feather and had no behavioral
issues and was not a screamer as the person claims it is who has it now.

It is sad that people seem all to quick and happy to bash a rescue.
Rescue work is hard enough without illogical, radical people waiting
from under rocks to tear down a rescue at any given chance.

For this rescue to walk away would be doing a great injustice to this
Cockatoo. The rescue needs it back before it kills itself in this
home where obviously the people know nothing about proper Cockatoo care.

The rescue was so shocked when the man became abusive, quick to anger
and threatening on the phone to the rescue for no reason. The rescue
was being very nice and was trying to explain the situation. Just the
day before he agreed to return the bird to the rescue. His
personality changed for the worse so quickly the next day. Just pray
he can show some patience and kindness towards this bird.

An angry, hostile home with constant arguing is not a good place for
any bird, animal or child. I am sure you know as rescuers do the ill
affects this has on birds. Many birds resort to screaming, feather
picking and mutilating as a result.

The rescue must put the feelings of this bird ahead of themselves.
The rescue does not care how many people wish to be blinded by this
and attack this rescue. The rescue will NOT let this bird down by
walking away and condemning it to an unhappy life.

"Intelligent people will see the truth and be on our side.
Unfortunately that would make them a minority."
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 09:09 AM

Mea Culpa. I had no idea this was to be about your PARTICULAR case. She should have been asking YOUR permission.

Doreen admits that she didn't even take the time to read the whole thread. Schira wouldn't discuss it with you here. It may be a way to let them in on the action. Anyway, from what you posted, I don't see any facts or anything new. You definately don't have to particpate.

I'm sorry if this has upset you. I hope you will get some rest.
Posted By: Tweet

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 01:45 PM

First, I did NOT say I didn't take the time to read all the posts. I have a slow computer, that coupled with some severe medical problems prevents me from reading almost 8 pages of this story. I created the yahoo group SO THAT PEOPLE COULD LIVE CHAT ON. THAT was my only goal. If you notice that several people were trying with MSN? and it wasn't working, so I thought it was, in my eyes, a nice thing to do.

NOT knowing the current home, the bird, the previous foster or anyone else involved with the bird I can't pass a judgement. I also run a rescue and I had some questions about how this all came about. I thought a live chat would help clear this up.

With only a few emails I do have some thoughts on this but I am not sure I even want to share them if people are going to start bashing me and I am not even involved.

The reason I joined was because we have many cockatoos available this month for adoption and when I saw "I AM BEING SUED" regarding an adoption, well, I was concerned.
?could this happen with one of our birds?
?do I know the people involved?
?how can a rescue AND an adopter avoid this?
?what went wrong?

IF you look on the yahoo list I say that for us, if a perfect home is found for a bird some rules goes out the window. The happiness of the bird is T H E most important issue.

For example- we don't ship birds because we can't do home checks. BUT, I have found a WONDERFUL home cross country from us where SEVERAL people have been to, they have gotten glowing reviews and we also know the vet. As a result we have shipped birds to this person.

My goal here is not to stir shit, it was simply to have a place were people could live chat about this. Sometimes emails back and forth take so long and a live chat allows things to get answered quicker. Sorry if you all seem to think I did a bad thing. I will go remove the site now. simple.

yikes.
I hope this matter gets resolved with the BIRD BEING THE WINNER and people understanding that that is what is important. The birds happiness.

Doreen
Posted By: Tweet

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 01:53 PM

and YES shovelheadme, I did start the list for YOUR cause. Everyone was talking about wanting to talk LIVE TIME CHAT and I thought that would help.

It upsets me to hear about a bird caught in the middle. If you read my first post, it says that I couldn't write you in private, the site wouldn't allow me and I did want to hear how this happened and why.

It wasn't a "lack of time" that prevents me from reading all the posts, but medical problems- I can't sit for hours at a time. There were duplicates of info and many posts that didn't explain what happened. I don't have the best computer, so the slowness coupled with not being able to sit here and read all the posts caused me not to "get" the entire story.

I am sorry if you think I did it for some other reason. I am VERY concerned that it appears that the bird is happy and that there is a struggle to remove him from a happy home. Like I said, I have several questions I wanted to ask you NOT in public, but was not able to do so because the site wouldn't allow me to email me you in private. If I understand correctly, you joined the chat group I made but left after one post. Sorry you did that. I would have asked you a few things.

I wish the bird the best of luck in all this, he is what is really important here.

Doreen
Posted By: Baxters Mama

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 04:58 PM

Ms. Allen,
Since I am too far away to investigate and see who is right/wrong...I am going on the good chance that the bird is better off with you...period. I operate as a rescue also and this type of thing happens foster selling pets). It is not YOUR fault and you and the bird are the ones that suffer. The rescue made a bad decision in a foster home.

It sounds like the worse thing that could happen is that the rescue gets some money and you pay for your pet. (It sounds like if you pay..you can keep him) I am sending a donation to you in order for you to keep this pet. There have been well over 100 posts to this thread. If everyone sent in a little, your problem would be taken care of and the bird would be happy. Yeah...we would all like to see the rescue get what coming...but that may not happen and that is just the ugly truth. Goodluck..you have tugged at my heart strings.
Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 05:25 PM

According to one of your posts, the rescue asked for $1800 for the bird. That amount, in my opinion, qualifies the BPP rescue as a pet shop.

Pay the money for the bird and be done with them.

Exposing BPP for what they really are: a pet shop, is worth the price. That's what your $1800 is paying for. We all know that the too is priceless.

I wonder, if the original owner of your too knew that BPP was going to sell the bird for $1800, would they have given them the bird in the first place? Maybe someone should ask them.

I'm sure there's got to be some law against posing as a rescue to obtain free birds for resale.

There's your answer why BPP is NOT a registered non-profit rescue.
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 05:25 PM

B&B's Mama, hopefully these contributions will not be used to "buy" the bird back. My sincere hope is that it will allow Mrs. Allen to pay the legal fees she will incur to have a judge give her the right to keep this bird that she has had for a year.

A countersuit is possible and that will incur costs that, hopefully, will be recovered.

Thank you and all the others who have made contributions. This could really happen to anyone. You are right, if everyone sent in a little, it would help her tremendously and give her a little peace. For those who want to help, here is her address so you don't have to dig back for it:

The Allens,
P.O. Box 34216
Parma, Ohio
44134
Posted By: hhanse57

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 05:35 PM

Unfortunately if you check back on the postings from page 6, this so called rescue, that is only looking out for the welfare of the bird, stated that they will not allow the Allens to adopt. Adoption denied it starts out. You are NOT looking out for the best interests of the bird. How long will this too have to live in a cage waiting for another family to adopt it since you already have more listed to adopt on Petfinders looking for homes. Makes me wonder what the administrators on Petfinders would think about this since obviously the bird is in a good home now.
Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 05:47 PM

Charlie, I think Mrs. Allen is taking a huge risk by fighting this in court rather then taking them up on the offer to pay $1800 for the bird.

The person who gave the bird to her in the first place really had no right to do so. The court could easily tell her to hand the bird back to bpp. I don't think they're going to care that the bird is a plucker and that Mrs Allen has taken good care of the bird and provided it with a safe and loving home for the last year. The court is only going to care who the rightful owner of the too is ACCORDING to the LAW. If BPP had given the bird to either Mrs Allen or her friend on the grounds that they didn't want it back then changed their minds, that would be a different story and fightable in court.

However, if Mrs.Allen wants to pursue this in court, I think she needs to track down the original owner and find out if they gave the too to BPP knowing that they were going to sell the bird for $1800. You could have a case if it can be shown that BPP is only POSING as a rescue to people giving up their toos and then turns around and sells them for profit at pet store prices. The original owner might be very sympathetic to the removal of the too from your home and that could change the outcome of the lawsuit.

Otherwise, we all know that courts are not sympathetic.

You and especially your too are going to be the innocent victims of the court system and this bogus rescue.

This poor bird has already seen to many homes and is a plucker. The most important thing is keeping this bird.
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 06:00 PM

King Les, you could be exactly right. More of a reason for good legal counsel. smile
Posted By: db

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 06:02 PM

Difficult situation - I think it could have been worked out appropriately a lot earlier without the rescue immediately demanding the bird back and getting lawyered up but now it has escalated and got everyone all worked up.
While the rescue may well have strict guidelines or whatever for bird adoption - sometimes a little common sense is in order. If I was in charge and had found this had happened I would be glad the bird was in a good place - however it came about. I am always glad to see ANY bird in a good place....If their guidelines were so strict - why did they not check on the bird previously when Janine was fobbing them off with excuses and moving the birds around? How did they know then what state the birds were in? They could have been dead for all they knew. Getting all self righteous and aggrieved after that when they suddenly realise the bird is not where they thought it was seems slightly pointless to me...Especially if the bird is being properly cared for by someone who wants to keep it...
I think a thorough investigation of BPP is warranted - by IRS and any other government bodies to ensure they are operating under the requirements they are receiving a tax break for. If they are doing so - well then they have no worries about coming under scrutiny do they? If we all report them (as suggested earlier - good idea) I expect someone will pull their records and take a look - then we will see if they are legitimate. The Dottie person hints darkly at unknown horrors "which will be revealed after the case" and "we dont know the full story" No of course we dont know the full story. We dont know the full story about the rescue either and what their motives and fiscal situation may be. I agree a court case may be risky as they will most likely tend to view the birds as "property" and will not be that interested in the subtleties of emotions, feather plucking etc, but will merely establish true ownership. Why the home is considered good enough IF they pay $1800 per bird but NOT good enough if they do not - makes me question the motives of the "rescue".
db
Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 06:46 PM

Quote:
The Dottie person hints darkly at unknown horrors "which will be revealed after the case" and "we dont know the full story"
It should be interesting to here especially since Mrs. Allen stated that they use the same vet..

Quote:
Why the home is considered good enough IF they pay $1800 per bird but NOT good enough if they do not - makes me question the motives of the "rescue"
Excellent point db! There you have it...

OT: Charlie, I just wanted you to know that I think you're a doll! laugh
Posted By: JAN H.

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 07:05 PM

Isn't there a statute of limitations by which ..if too much time has passed between the "action" and the "reaction"..that nothing can be done? I was wondering , since this all transpired over a year ago, if this may not be looked into. Perhaps too much time has passed for this pseudo-rescue-cum-bird-seller to have a case...here's Hope-ing wink And we all stand behind you in this!
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 07:22 PM

Well the previous owners were contacted. They apparently GAVE BPP A TOTAL OF 5 BIRDS. ALL COCKATOOS. (Remember Dotties site saying she has breed 9 different species of cockatoos as well as other exotic species for over 12 years) This woman was in tears about these birds and had said that since relinquishing the birds, she has called and emailed BPP a numerous amount of times to ask Dottie about the welfare of the 5 birds, BPP's reply to her was give us $50 for bird food then we will tell you. The ransom was paid and BPP'S reply was "The birds are fine and well" kaput! What happened to Elliott and Echo???
BPP told me (Mr.Allen) the birds had been abused and kept in a room by themselves with no contact...If this is true then this here bird COULD NOT possibly be the same one in question. This bird really picked up and started strutting around his cage when he heard her voice on the speakerphone. Dottie says that there is more to this story than we know. I believe we now know what this story is. Won't tip my hand on this here forum though. The original owners also verified that this organization was not being sued by them as BPP claimed.
Dottie claims to have been BREEDING since the early 80's (she wont give Exact dates) but quit breeding in the early 90's.(another generality) Thats roughly 5 years of BREEDING and (cough) Rescueing all At Once. $$$$$$$$$$$ ... Hmmnnn. Then the trail leads to some IMHO shady people. Then letters are written by some and sent by others as if they were the
authors. Makes you wonder why Slime sticks together $$$$$$$$$$$$$$..Thank You all for your help with this. By the way HomeTweetHome how long ago did you say that you quit breeding? And how long have you been in a relationship with BPP?
Posted By: Tweet

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 07:29 PM

Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 08:04 PM

Quote:
This woman was in tears about these birds and had said that since relinquishing the birds, she has called and emailed BPP a numerous amount of times to ask Dottie about the welfare of the 5 birds,
This is all far too sad. It sounds like you could have some rel help from the original owners.

I'm assuming the original owner had to sign some sort of relinquish papers with BPP. Maybe you should get a copy of them.

My heart goes out to Mr and Mrs Allen.
Posted By: Popeye

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 08:39 PM

angry angry http://www.avianrescue.org/bc-oh.html
Quote:
Bird Care Classes

Parma, OHIO
Bird Placement Program

Speaking topics include:

Why birds end up in rescue organizations
Breeding: how to set them up, mate aggression,
Handfeeding
Choosing a Pet Bird

Speaking fees are limited to expenses paid. Email Dottie at kiakime@apk.net or phone: (330) 722-1627
Dottie Schira is the co-author of the "Breeding and Handfeeding Tips" serios of booklets. There are 8 in the series at $7.00 each. She is also the publisher of BPP Bulletin Bird Magazine
shovelheadme--Since you found the original owners of your bird, you need them in court with you.
Julie
Posted By: U2sForever

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 08:56 PM

ok THIS IS A MESS!!
Shovelhead, I am so sorry you are going through this pain right now! I simply could not imagine someone demanding one of my TOOS back! They ARE family! frown

To everyone else.. I have a suggestion... since mudd slinging is going back and forth here..and the rescue is stating the home is NOT a healthy one for the TOO.. why dont all of us who live in OHIO or nearby ..... GO VISIT!

It may be a simple plan, but it could only help!

We are TOO owners ourselves, so we can see and state that the bird IS in a good home. We all know how a bird reacts with it's human flock members.. and we can spot a happy bird a MILE away!

What really REALLY troubles me after reading 8 pages of posts is this, the rescue thinks because the husband got angry on the phone that this is an unstable home... ???????????????????

to the rescue I say this:
Try to take a TOO away from me and you WILL see REAL ANGER!!! You are trying to take away a FAMILY member.. to you the TOO is an ASSET, to these people it is FAMILY!!!!
Do you even UNDERSTAND the relationship???????
If so then PLEASE back off ... if not .. visit one of us in our home with OUR birds... then you can see just how STRONG the bond is!

Shovelhead, my prayers are with you..whatever it takes KEEP your baby with you! I live in OHIO.. be glad to help you and your TOO out! smile
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 09:33 PM

http://www.knowx.com/fein/search.jsp

Research a business. Search D&B Federal Employer Identification Number (FEIN) to obtain or verify the unique nine-digit FEIN or Federal Tax ID Number issued to each business by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). Use the D&B FEIN to search to locate businesses, obtain FEIN for required tax filings, and identify an executive of the business and the operating classification.

No such number 34-1823499 listed! (ms. schiras FIEN #)

WHAT THE .....
Posted By: Dan Savage

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 09:39 PM

Quote:
To everyone else.. I have a suggestion... since mudd slinging is going back and forth here..and the rescue is stating the home is NOT a healthy one for the TOO.. why dont all of us who live in OHIO or nearby ..... GO VISIT!
Excellent idea. I suggest that photos also be taken of the bird, the bird's accomodations.

Then, go do the same thing at the rescue. Since Dottie said the animal control gushed over how well the facilities were run, then photographs should not be a problem.
Posted By: Roka

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 09:45 PM

What is not clear to me is the $1800 offer still "on the table" so to speak if so my advice is to go for it. I think it is a great idea to have "expert witnesses" on the health and happiness of the bird and it's living conditions and I'm sure mytoos members in Ohio would do that for you.

Hometweet, it is understandable for the Allens to be watching their back and being suspicious what has happened to them is enough to make anyone paranoid - it is like a sick joke but NOT funny.

Nobody knows the true story except the two parties involved. If the bird was in terrible condition the organisation would not offer the "buy now" option and I think a bird is better left where it is. If the bird was being abused the American equivalent of the RSPCA would already have been involved by the organisation. I am so sorry it has come to this for that poor bird.
Posted By: Tweet

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 09:49 PM

<<<Hometweet, it is understandable for the Allens to be watching their back and being suspicious what has happened to them is enough to make anyone paranoid - it is like a sick joke but NOT funny.>>>>

I TOTALLY AGREE. WHY DO YOU THINK I HAVE OFFERED TO TALK WITH THEM???? I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. BUT coming after me is not an answer. I have done nothing, said nothing to make anyone think I was other then what I am - honest and caring. Simple. I have no motives here. Well, ONE to give some info. simple.

doreen
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 10:12 PM

http://www.guidestar.org/controller/search.gs

I used this USA charities search, using animal welfare, rescues and typed in Dotties FEIN# and search results came up negative no such charity!

A FEIN# DOES NOT GRANT ONE NON-PROFIT STATUS IT IS ALSO USED FOR CORPORATIONS!~ANYONE OF YOU ON THIS MESSAGEBOARD CAN GET A FEIN FOR A CORPORATION, JUST LIKE MS. SCHIRA DID HER CHARITY IS NOT LISTED. . .

try yourselves
Ms. Schira's SUPPOSEDLY FEIN # 34-1823499

In my opinion Ms. Schira is a collector & breeder! She proudly shows the baby birds she has raised (although she does note she no longer breeds) But she still speaks to groups and has a booklet about breeding. She also "rescues" dogs and sugargliders. Sounds like a collector! Why her rescue is STILL listed under mytoos with such ghastly pics of her proudly showing off baby amazons she has bred and raised is unknown to me. If I was a reformed breeder the last thing I would do is show off my chicks STILL online!

Dottie I believe your a fraud and on TUESDAY morning I will be calling notonly the IRS again but also OHIO Attorney General!
Posted By: hhanse57

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 10:21 PM

shovelheadme, do you have animal control in your area? Wonder if you call them if they'd come out to do a home inspection and write a small report of their findings that you could take to court with you. Also is your vet willing to give you something in writing? Do you have any photos of the bird when you received it compared to now?

Since you've offered to adopt and it sounds like a good home enviroment, and they have refused and are not even willing to come to your home to inspect, I can't help but wonder if a judge will feel like his time is being wasted by this woman in a situation that could have been fixed days ago.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 10:40 PM

Yes, we have the contract that the owners signed relinquishing the birds to BPP, that is how we got their phone number. We called them last night and we plan on talking to them this evening. I remember reading a post where someone asked will my bird forget me. I cried last night when I seen how our U2 reacted to hearing his original owners voice. No, they do not forget and it is heartbreaking to know this.
All these contracts will be taken to our lawyer and to Janines lawyer on Monday.

I also would like to clarify somethings about this statement from BPP:
Quote:
She kept changing her phone number and email address so it made it really hard to get in contact with her. She claimed she did this because of her husband bothering her. Finally my partner would periodically drive by her house and stop in to check up on things. When the birds were not there Janine told us the birds were at her friend Jungle Bob's house but she was getting them back. Another time she said the birds were at her new boyfriend's house but she was bringing them back to her house.

Janine was a personal friend so I never thought she would do such a thing.
First of all, yes Janine did change her phone number, just once. The phone bill was in her husbands name, which he was responsible for, once divorced she started new services. Which is the same for her email address because our DSL is through our phone company. I know that phone records can be used to prove this statememt is false. Phone records can also be subpoenaed to show this, as well as, just how many time the organization tried to contact Janine regarding the birds. Secondly, if she knew back then, 4/04, that the birds were not in Janines possession, why did they do nothing about it then by asking for the birds back. I do not buy that they didn't want to put her through stress because of her divorce. It is because they knew Janine paid for these birds, thats why. If they truly had ownership, they should have taken action then. Now the bird is settled into our home, in his and our eyes, for life. Lastly, they state that they can not believe Janine would do such a thing. What did she actually do that was so bad. Her being in rescue herself, she did what was best for the bird at the time, she provided a home where he would be loved and cared for.
I think that this does have a lot to do with control and power. But like someone said in an earlier post, they lost control long ago but it is not the birds fault or OUR fault that this happened.
Also I found out that the person who posted an email on hometweets forum was in fact Dottie. So I feel I need to respond here:
Quote:
That bird was perfect in the
rescues care. That bird was in perfect feather and had no behavioral
issues and was not a screamer as the person claims it is who has it now.
Hmmm seems like the only person who could state this is Dottie or Fran. They know this after only 2 days? The original owners signed the contract on 2/14 and the "alleged" contract Janine signed was dated 2/16.
Quote:
The rescue needs it back before it kills itself in this
home where obviously the people know nothing about proper Cockatoo care
I beg to differ here. He is full of feathers and he is NOT mutilating, but he sure will if BPP takes him from his home. I have heard nothing but this fact from rescuers from all over the world. Have you been here, have you seen the bird? Whats his favorite treat? What time does he go to bed? What time does he wake up? Whats his favorite toy? Wheres his favorite place to be rubbed and scratched? Does he favor me or my husband? What kind of fruits and veggies does he like and dislike? How is he with other birds? How is he with new people? What is he afraid of? You have no answer to any of these questions and I can list tons more. You do not know because you had the bird for ONLY 2 days!
Quote:
The rescue was so shocked when the man became abusive, quick to anger
and threatening on the phone to the rescue for no reason. The rescue
was being very nice and was trying to explain the situation. Just the
day before he agreed to return the bird to the rescue. His
personality changed for the worse so quickly the next day. Just pray
he can show some patience and kindness towards this bird.
This is a total lie. I was standing right next to my husband when he called on 1/29 and he did not raise his voice once. He brought up the conditions at the Brecksville location (the location where the bird was to be returned) and Ms. Shira became irate saying she doesn't need to hear this, that he never has been there. Janine has brought animals to her rescue but was never aloud inside. I was just informed on Monday of what Dottie was talking about with the city and APL coming to Frans home and they found it in pristine condition. But what she failed to mention is that the city came to the home and she refused to let them in without a warrant, so they left. Leaving this organization plenty of time to have it in pristine condition.
Quote:
An angry, hostile home with constant arguing is not a good place for
any bird, animal or child. I am sure you know as rescuers do the ill
affects this has on birds. Many birds resort to screaming, feather
picking and mutilating as a result.
You have no clue to what our home is like. But what the organization is doing to this bird is acceptable?? Yes, many birds do this and knowing the bird has been in a home for year, doesn't the organization know the possibility of this happening to him if removed? Do they care? If he does resort to that, then he becomes what is called a problem bird and BPP doesn't consider problem birds adoptable. Get real.
This email can also be proven where it originated from by the IP address and registration from Yahoo.
Like Dottie said, "The lies are growing." But not our part.
I do not want this to be a mud slinging forum, I have stated only facts. I did not say any names or places until the suit became public knowledge online through Ohio Public Records, which is there for all of you to see, for the whole world to see.

Our Avian vet can not help due to conflict of interest, because he deals with this rescue. I do know that the people who work there are shocked at this, they know the story. A friend of ours works there and has been to our home and in contact with the bird many many times and has offered to help in anyway. I will be making phone calls regarding your post Monday hhanse.
I will be back later, I do have a life and a family to take care of and the only one who has gotten any attention is my U2, he has been sitting in my lap the whole time telling me what to say! Now he is going to help me get our dinner started! laugh
Posted By: cujos_mom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 11:07 PM

Shovelheadme, you have a lot of support behind you. Keep your chin up - I can imagine the stress this nightmare is causing you and your family.

I know that when people say things about us, it is human nature to want to defend ourselves and set the record straight, but I just wanted to let you know that, for me anyways, whatever public comments that rescue has already made or may make yet, they could stand undefended and unrefuted and it wouldn't make any difference to me. They have let themselves be known through their own words here and on their web site. It's not a pretty picture that they paint and my impression is that these people were bad news long before you ever had the misfortune to have to know them.
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/19/05 11:11 PM

OK! Sorry I am being such a pest on this thread!

Doing a little more reading about "collectors".

There are people with low self-esteem and more than likely some even have psychological issues that find it necessary to collect things that will get them MAJOR exposure! For example, many of you have seen the news, with a lady standing there with 50+ cats, explaining how she wanted to help them! She cries and people say, "AHHH poor woman, you are great for doing this!" The woman then gets her recognition or attention. Not to far along the lines like MUNCHOUSEN (sp) by Proxy, where the mom slowly poisons her child to get attention from doctors and sometimes the media.
There was a case of a lady here in Southern California that purported herself as a ********* rescue. She was trying to say she was affiliated with another rescue. The only difference was the lady NEVER adopted out any animals was breeding the ones she "TOOK IN" and she was over burdened by the cost. Suffice it to say that many of the dogs she rescued had to be given euthanasia. And many of the breeding females were in such poor health that the will require YRS of medical attention.

A true rescue would be formed like a corporation with officers, most of the ones I have dealt with on many occasions and not just for animals, NEVER had just 2 people! IMHO BPP is not a true rescue as their FEIN number is NON EXISTANT! And they are not listed on GUIDESTARS list of US charities. BPP’S website is ALL ABOUT DOTTIE & FRAN! A LOT about the people they have “ATTACKED” and nothing about the success stories of the people who have adopted birds from BPP’s
Posted By: Liisa B

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/20/05 07:38 AM

Have been following this thread quietly now & I am very concerned re: BPP's posting of cockatoos & other birds on petfinder.com. Not with petfinder per se, but with the adoption criteria.
Up for adoption from them - are **budgies, cockatoos, conures, macaws & a TAG.
There is an icon on this site which states NO Small Children. This icon is NOT marked for the cockatoos,IS marked for the TAG & Macaws. This (to me anyway) implies that Toos & small children are ok with each other... Also all their Toos are young breeding (1st hormonal frenzy) aged birds! eek
It gives people the "impression" that the cockatoos are just fine with kids! confused Yet the macaws have "bad days".
I am getting the very distinct feeling here that regardless of what happens with this particular "case" that this organization really doesn't know much about how quickly a Too CAN whip that beak around & disfigure a child, or adult as many of us have been nailed.
I'm lucky ...so far... but I never take that calm bomb proof babe of mine for granted either.

I truly MUST question anyone who would not mention the two-faced natured of a cockatoo in a true rescue site, especially since they are in the top 3 or 4 of bird types being rehomed due to behavior / aggression issues.

Good Luck to The Allen Family
* Including the feathered one.
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/20/05 07:39 AM

If you google Dottie Schira's name you will be amazed at the number of things that come up...bird rescue, great dane rescue, hand feeding tips, sugar glider rescue......THIS PERSON HAS A FULL PLATE....HOW CAN SHE DEVOTE ENOUGH TIME TO ONE COCKATOO LET ALONE SEVERAL UNLESS SHE IS USING THEM IN A BREEDING PROGRAM?????
Ang
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/20/05 07:50 AM

To Jerry and the moderators -
I would like some clarification for myself as well as for MS SCHIRA & BPP RESCUE:
<BIG>All posts on this message board are copyright and may not be used without permission</BIG>
So this means that neither Ms. Schira or myself can print this thread out to be used in court without the owners' (Jerry) permission? Am I correct in my understanding?
I respect this site and its rules and therefore will not break the copyright law.
Posted By: Jerry

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/20/05 03:16 PM

Anything posted on this board automatically becomes the property of Mytoos.com. Our copyright is in exchange for the privilege of people posting here: i.e. using this board for help or advice. Original authors may copy and use anything THEY have posted here... but they CANNOT use anything posted by others here without permission from Mytoos.com.
Posted By: liviray

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/20/05 06:02 PM

http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=...tmpl=&stat=

All I wanna know is why is this LSC in a cage this size? Espressially if this woman is an expert, and runs a rescue?
Posted By: Popeye

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/20/05 07:06 PM

Angie,
I did a google search too and this is what I came up with:
1. Thunder Hill Great Dane Rescue
2. A-Pomeranian Rescue
3. Abandoned Pregnant Dog Rescue
4. Out Of Love Sugarglider Rescue
5. BIRD PLACEMENT PROGRAM Refuge & Bird Care Services

This from a directory:
Quote:
We do not have any outstanding vet bills because all of our Associates pay the vet bills out of their own
funds. We do not belive in outstanding vet bills and we do not solicite for donations.
confused confused "we do not solicite for donations"???? That's all she does on her dozens of websites!

Quote:
We are currently raising funds to build a building to house the Sugar Glider rescue at our Ohio headquarters. Part of the building will be for dog rescues in a separate room, another room will house abandoned pregnant dogs, another room will house parrot rescues and half of that room will be divided by a wall and will house Sugar Glider rescues waiting for new homes. Please contact us if you are able to send a donation or help with the building which we hope to start and compete this summer. The building's estimated cost is $20,000.
Hmmmmmm.....
Posted By: Alleaa

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/20/05 07:27 PM

perhaps someone should contact petfinder?
Posted By: JAN H.

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/20/05 07:44 PM

Again I would like to ask....isn't there a statute of limitations by which a person would be safe from being prosecuted for a percieved "wrong"?? Perhaps too much time has passed for BPP to take legal action in this issue. Just tossing out a straw to grasp....
Any thoughts?
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/20/05 07:57 PM

Hey Liviray,
You might want to recheck that link you posted. Looks like they editted it, because of the uneducated people like us.

Remember in a long ago post of mine, when I said the more I find, the more it hurts...but I was not able to name names at the time? Well, now you ALL know what I knew and you guys keep managing to find more! It is unbelievable!
Posted By: liviray

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/20/05 09:03 PM

Yep, they took the photo off...but its funny cause I saved the origional link to my book marks so ...It still comes up for me. In going back to look at the picture:

Why would a travel cage need three toys in it?
Why if it was only a travel cage did she take the photo off?
How is it showing my uneducation by commenting that it was too small?

This gal is again...like I remarked on the first page....totally imbalanced.

Has anyone called the local SPCA to check out her rescue? Cause with dogs...birds...suger gliders...and god knows what else, I dont know how you would be able to care for all, honestly I dont frown
I also am wondering how sanitary it would be to have all these types of animals together in the same building...can anyone educate me? From what I understand from a member on this board who has suger gliders...they sleep during the day...that cant be compatible with dogs and parrots could it?
Posted By: rbyers

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 01:46 AM

Ok. I just learned about this discussion from another board and had to come and read everything for myself to see what was going on.

First I would like to say, I was in animal control as a field supervisor for 6 years. I handled 90% of all cruelty cases and believe me, I have seen some very disturbing things.

From all that Shovelheadme and the rescue has said, and not being able to see for myself the conditions of either place, it really hard to decide on this one. I honestly believe that if the bird is happy and content in the home it is in, that it should not be jerked out, just to go back into another new situation. I have read all of the comments about the rescue but I have also been in situations before where people will say anything to protect themselves. I don't know any of these people, but by what all google pulls up on the rescue, it seems that they have a full plate. Sometimes people mean well and try to do all they can to save/protect unwanted, abandoned and abused animals only to make things worse. They don't mean to, they just take on more than they can handle and get overwhelmed. I have seen it happen often, and I have taken animals from some of these places. I'm not saying this is the case with this rescue as I don't know their circumstances. What I don't understand is why, if they are really concerned about the wellfare of this bird, would they deny the current handler the request of adoption. Seems to me that they would be happy that the bird was in a good safe, happy, loving home, whether it is there legally or not. I understand that there was a phone call made pretaining to the possibility of the bird needing to go to a new home due to allergies but if the problem was fixed and she wants to keep the bird with her, she should be able to. I don't know either of these people and can only go by what I hear here on this board. I have heard from the rescue that the bird is in bad condition, but I have heard here that it is in great condition. I would love to see a picture, or better yet, a webcam to see this bird at the present time. That would tell alot about the situation. I'm not saying either party is lying about anything, as I said earlier, I don't know either party. Hope to be around in March to hear the outcome of this. Best of luck to you all, and especially the too.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 03:20 AM

Thank you so much for your post rbyers. What I do not understand is what makes this rescue think that this bird is in bad shape? Have I posted that the bird is in bad shape? Have I mentioned anywhere that the bird is presently in bad shape? No, I have not. I did however say that when I got the U2, he chewed a dime size hole in his chest?? Was that my fault? As Dottie has mentioned, the bird had been through several moves before I got him. WE ARE THE ONE WHO TOOK CARE OF HIM AND GOT HIM HEALTHY AGAIN, not anybody else. We are the ones that loved and cared for him when he was feeling stressed. I KNOW FROM WHAT I READ ON HERE, THAT HE WILL MOST LIKELY DO IT AGAIN IF REMOVED FROM HIS HOME FOR NO GOOD REASON, LIKE THIS RESCUE WANTS TO DO! A healthy bird can turn into a plucker and self mutilator with the slightest bit of stress? AM I RIGHT MEMBERS???? I never once stated anywhere that this bird was nothing other then healthy. I have been nothing but honest on this board, not like Ms. Schira. She started this whole thing based on a LIE! She called demanding this bird back based on a HUGE LIE, that the original owners have filed a lawsuit against them and they need to prove they have the birds. The ORIGINAL OWNERS HAVE VERIFIED THAT THIS IS A LIE!!! Why did this rescue feel the need to lie to us in order to get the bird back? She showed NO COMPASSION for us or the bird while making her demands for her "alleged property". No chance to adopt was offered, even after I asked and was told flatly NO, but it could be brought up in front of the board. Like I asked before, what board? My request to adopt was denied 2 times. I said she was more then welcome to come see the bird and the environment he is living in, but was rejected. She does not care to make an attempt to resolve this peacefully. I have received several emails from this rescue and not once did they offer any sort of resolution, only demands. If the rescue was truly looking out for the best interest of the very thing she says she is passionate about, then she would have made an attempt to work with us to ensure this would be in the best interest of the bird. I would love to have everyone of you come to my home to see our Too, but I do not know who is who and I am having a hard time trusting. There are a few of you that I would not hesitate to come here, but even if you did, it would not satisfy this rescue. I have a roll of film that needs to be developed and I am sure our Too is in some of those pictures. I will take them to be developed and put on a disc and post them somehow. I believe I can put them on yahoo briefcase or something like that. I don't know what else to say, this lady is dreaming about our Toos "alleged" current state, and I have nothing but proof to prove otherwise!! Would I have become a member of this site if I did not care for my Too? Would I have posted if I didn't care about the well being of my Too? If I didn't care and love this Too, wouldn't it have been easier just to return the bird? This bird is with me all day long, I am home for him. He is not lacking attention or love in this house, but he will be if he goes back to that rescue. He is not going to get the attention and the privledges he has here of being out of his cage 95% of the day or the ability to walk around freely. He will scream nonstop if he goes back because it is not what he is use to, so he will mutilate himself because there is no one there to pay this kind of attention to him because they are to busy taking care of all the other birds, dogs, sugar gliders and whatever else. So if I am wrong here for fighting for this bird, then let me burn in hell. Yeah......I guess this does sound like a terrible Too owner!
Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 03:40 AM

What I find fascinating is that Mrs Allen was denied adoption but was given the option to purchase the too for $1800

Things that make you go hmmmmm... confused
Posted By: Tweet

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 04:09 AM

Posted By: jules

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 04:56 AM

Is there any way your vet - or anyone else you would both feel comfortable with - could act as mediator to settle this outside of court? This whole situation just seems to have escalated so far out of hand so quickly... eek
Certainly, the court of public opinion has made themselves clear here on mytoos, angry but a judge...
Posted By: Leigh

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 06:02 AM

You could see if a neighbor of yours or a friend may have a digital camera. My son has one and I was able to get pictures on this site in less than an hour after they were taken. I am sure everyone would love to see your bird!
Posted By: hellobaby

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 06:07 AM

I think the "conflict of interest" business with your Vet should be handled. It would be great if you could get a written statement about the condition of your Too when you first got him, but then I can see where your Vet may feel that is a conflict. I don't see why your Vet can't give you written confirmation that your Too is perfectly healthy, and how LONG your Too has been in a healthy condition.

I wish we lived closer so we could come over and witness your living conditions with your Too. It would be great if someone could do so and take recent pics (dated perhaps with a recent newspaper in hand in on of them). Perhaps someone involved with true rescue could help out with it...? I sincerely doubt the BPP "board" would extend that same offer out for their "facilities". I think photos of your living situation would be great to have with you in court, but ask your attorney what he/she thinks.

I'm just thinking out loud here, and will keep praying for the best for your family and YOUR TOO!!

Lynne
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 06:57 AM

Doing some right now! But this is the cheapest of cheap digital camera. Will get better ones, but this will do for the moment! Trying to figure out where and how to link to Yahoo briefcase!
_________________________________________________
Ok back, and these pictures are terrible! Like I said the camera is a piece of junk but I will get more posted! There was no way to get a newspaper date to show up, but we did however try to get the court papers into view, but our Too wanted to tear it up immediately!!
web page
_________________________________________________
Oh yeah, atleast you can clearly tell he is not a feather plucker and not mutilating! Like I said, better pics to come! I am very glad I can share with all you!
laugh
Posted By: MidnightAngel

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 07:32 AM

This is the first time that I have posted to this thread. I was sure hoping to see photos of this amazing topic of conversation. I wish I was the judge viewing these images and making the determinating decision. I'm telling you that this is one healthy and happy bird. My vote is for the defendant in this case! When you go to court, don't forget to stress that you received this bird as a GIFT. From being an avid court trial watcher on television. A gift is a gift and posession is 9/10'ths of the law. I have yet to hear any court case where the defendant is asked to return any gift. My hope is that this case will be tossed out of court by the judge and BPP would have to take the original foster family to court to recoupe their losses for the bird or birds in question. Shovelhead, try to sleep until the court date and spoil that beautiful baby rotten. I'm hoping the judge will follow the laws in this case and let this child stay with your family for years to come. My heart goes out to you and your family but mostly for this bird that is very clearly loved and happy in it's home. Thanks so much for the photos, they were a true joy to view. finally being able to put a fingerprint on this case sure helped a lot. My prayers are with you and your family.
Posted By: hellobaby

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 07:46 AM

So BPP is saying the bird in question is unhealthy & mutilating, eh? Well, then that can't POSSIBLY be the same bird! (Pardon my sarcastic wit at almost 1am, but REALLY!) Glad to see some pics, and keep gathering everything you can!

Lynne
Posted By: For Kiko

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 07:49 AM

These pictures show one happy bird, and a family member who obviously enjoys and trusts this bird. And I also saw a great size cage in the background. He's just beautiful, and my prayers are with your family.
Posted By: Tweet

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 08:13 AM

Posted By: Pandra

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 08:49 AM

Ummm Livery, is that link working right? I'm not wanting to stir up more trouble, I'm just confused. There's a puppy picture there, not one of a LSC.
Posted By: rbyers

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 08:54 AM

Well, I'm glad to see the pictures. What I see is a healthy, happy too. I see no reason that this bird should be jerked out of this home. The rescue in question should see that this bird has been placed in a great home and only care about the well being of the too. If they don't, it does make everyone question their intentions. The whole purpose here is to make sure that the rescue birds are in safe, happy, forever homes. They just got a good home for this bird without all the hassle of going through applications, visits and everything else. Why not let shovelheadme pay a reasonable adoption fee and then be happy for the bird? Seems we are all starting to see the big picture here. $$$$$ If I have said anything to offend anyone, I'm sorry. I tell'm as I see'm. Good luck in court shovel......
Posted By: Alleaa

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 08:59 AM

He is a VERY happy and healthy looking too, my God what is the matter with these people, they can not be thinking about this guy at all.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 09:48 AM

Before finally going to bed, I wanted to let you all know that I did speak to our lawyer briefly tonight. I was told anyone who wanted to send a statement, it had to be in affidavit form and notorized, so keep this in mind. It can be written in your own hand but it must say the following:

GENERAL AFFIDAVIT

State of __________________

County of _________________

Before the undersigned, an officer duly commissioned by
the laws of ____________, on this_____day of _____________,
20____, personally appeared ______________________________
who having been first duly sworn depose and say:
__________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________

Witness:________________ _______________________________

Sworn and subscribed before me this ___day of ___________
A.D. 20__

__________________________

__________________________
Posted By: hhanse57

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 02:39 PM

I suppose you shouldn't do this due to conflict of interests, and I don't live in your state, but if I did, I'd be on the phone with any newspapers in the area that have an editorial 'opinion' writer who might be intersted in this story. We have a wonderful one in our town... hmmm, wonder if he knows anyone in Parma, Ohio that might be interested in a story. Anybody live in Ohio that could contact their local newspapers??
Posted By: Leigh

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 02:39 PM

Sure can't tell he had been a plucker! YOu are doing a wonderful job!!!!!!!!
Hang in there you are in our prayers.

Leigh
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 02:53 PM

The Allens,
P.O. Box 34216
Parma, Ohio
44134

Here is the address to mail your affidavits. Popular support would be good, anything to help! If you haven't already, you might want to send along a contribution to help defray all the costs involved in this situation. Thanks for the pics. Try to do some dated ones for court use. I don't know how social your 'Too is in a public setting, maybe he could make an appearance somehow on the day of the hearing. The media would love that. smile
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 05:44 PM

Hey not bad pics! Atleast I can see he is not plucked and mutilated!

Just wanted you all to know that now I have a FEIN number in the State of AZ (did it online took 5 minutes) I guess I can be non profit now? HA HA HA HA! NO! Its is a CORPORATION and now credit can be built under this name with out affecting my personal credit THAT IS ALL A FEIN# does! It does not mean I can be NON PROFIT! NOOOO!
Posted By: jules

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 06:17 PM

Julie is right about the FEIN. EIN's are given out to anyone who presents themselves as starting a business, and is used as a form of ID for tax purposes, etc. It is NOT the same thing as a non-profit 5013c id number. That is only issued after submitting a detailed request, complete with documentation as to why you should qualify, and being approved by the government (I forget which .gov entity - IRS?). It's a long, drawn-out process to get non-profit status approval, not something they hand out willy-nilly to anyone who asks. Anyone can, however, present themself as a not for profit, which doesn't mean much of anything except that they "promise" they're not making money personally on what they are doing. But you cannot deduct any donations unless they have that 5013c authorization.
Posted By: Marie & Peaches

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 06:28 PM

Even with the bad camera the pictures show a very healthy Too. Did you take any pics when you first got him, to show the difference? Stay strong.
Posted By: Popeye

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 06:49 PM

shovelheadme,
Be sure to put your photo link on your profile!
Julie smile
Posted By: Ron Pack

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 06:50 PM

THINK JANINE

Janine may be your best [and only] proof of ownership...and this is what the judge will likely base his decision on.
Something tells me Janine had GOOD reason for not returning the bird to the rescue and you need Janine to show proof that she purchased the bird from BBP...

I would summons the original owners into court as character witnesses. I'm sure they would like to know where all 5 of their birds ended up going especially if they were led to believe the birds would be permanent residents of the sanctuary but were sold or adopted out instead.

I would also demand Dottie bring all up- to- date legal documents showing that she is indeed operating within the law and guide-lines of a legit Non Profit rescue service.

Should you lose in court, you may be able to convince the judge that this situation warrants a full inspection of the rescue facility to insure the well being of the bird before the bird is returned. Zoning and Health inspectors can be a big help too....
Posted By: JArcher107@aol.com

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 07:22 PM

I am also new to this forum (well, as a member, I've read it off and on for some time.) I've now joined to post after having this thread forwarded to me.

I didn't stay at a Holiday Express last night either..but I am a lawyer. I can't comment on specifics here, since I am not familiar with Ohio law, but it certainly seems to me that it's quite odd that this "case" is supposedly going to be HEARD on the 9th of March? I'm speedreading (I have 31 parrots of my own to care for), so may have missed something but I've never encountered a situation in any case where it was HEARD at...is this even 30 days since service?

As for the damages claimed, I'd say that was an exaggeration (kindest term for it) to try to drag a small claims case into "big" court, most likely in the hopes that this would convince the Defendants that they had to have a lawyer (true), and thus price them out of the action, and allowed this so-called "rescue" a default judgment...in other words, an abuse of the system for intimidation purposes.

It also seems to me that they have the wrong party in court...the person who originally had the bird, and who may (or may not) have signed some contract with this POS "rescue" (legal term there, POS.. wink )....would be the one who breached a contract.

Without proving that there was such a contract between the POS rescue and the person who may..or may not..;0...have then given the bird to the Defendants... that this IS in fact the bird the POS rescue claims as "theirs"..it's hard to see how they can expect to win.

One good thing has already come out of this, and that is that Dottie Schirra has, through her own words and actions, now shown herself in public to be exactly what those of us who have been in the rescue world for decades know her to be..someone whose ego overrules anything else, who is perfectly willing to attack others while claiming she is being attacked, and who shrouds all her "rescue" activitues in a cloud of secrecy, including NOT becoming a 501(c)(3), which would require public disclosure of her financial activities.

But the most important thing she has showhere is that she's more concerned with money, and control, than with the well being of this bird. If she cared about birds in general, and this bird in particular, she woudl have made an effortt o simply visit with teh bird and its owners, determine if the bird was doign well there, and if it was...move on.

In teh meantime..I'd check into boarding costs in your area, as someone else mentioned, and I'd also get records from the vet showing your costs in getting thi s bird healthy.

FOr my own part, I intend to send alink to this discussion on all my lists, so peoepl can see this "Bird Placement Program" for what it, and its' :founder", really is. She has condemned herself in her own words and deeds right here.

Apologies for typos..I'm notoriously bad with them & can't correct easily here for some reason

Judith Archer
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 08:15 PM

There is not much that I can say here, considering the BPP founder is constantly watching this board along with some of her shady friends, I assume. But we just wanted to let you know, that after speaking to an attorney, they are actually sueing for $7200.00 dollars. We also wanted to let you all know something that is in the complaint:
Quote:
Count 2: Conversion
Defendents have intentionally refused, and continue to refuse to return the birds, which are Plaintiff's property, despite lawful demand, causing Plaintiff to SUFFER LOSS OF THE USE AND POSSESSION OF THE BIRDS, costs and attorney's fees.
I capitalized the words for emphasis only, it is not in the complaint as such. We are going to try and have this complaint, along with the contracts, scanned and provide a link for you all to view. If you live in Ohio, all you would have to do is go to the court house to get these same papers.
Posted By: Lrex

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 08:28 PM

As was stated previously...

"As for the damages claimed, I'd say that was an exaggeration (kindest term for it) to try to drag a small claims case into "big" court, most likely in the hopes that this would convince the Defendants that they had to have a lawyer (true), and thus price them out of the action, and allowed this so-called "rescue" a default judgment...in other words, an abuse of the system for intimidation purposes. "

Judges have also been known to "punish" plaintiffs for abuse of process. I hope with all my heart that these heartless, horrible individuals are punished to the max. If the judge doesn't do it, I hope with all my heart that KARMA does.
Posted By: King Les

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 08:42 PM

Hi Judith, Thank you for posting on this thread.

If you're still around, will you educate us on what this complaint is about?

Quote:
Count 2: Conversion
Defendents have intentionally refused, and continue to refuse to return the birds, which are Plaintiff's property, despite lawful demand, causing Plaintiff to SUFFER LOSS OF THE USE AND POSSESSION OF THE BIRDS, costs and attorney's fees.
What loss of use did this rescue suffer? Were they going to breed it? Did they have a tv contract for it? What loss could a rescue have because the bird wasn't in it's possesion?

It seems the Allen's saved the rescue money and resources for giving the bird a home.

I'm just curious, from a legal stand point, how they're rationalizing this complaint.

Thank you.
Posted By: JArcher107@aol.com

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 09:48 PM

Two fast points, one, Dotti Dearest is also a vindictive ******,,,here is her post to one of her lists, where of course, she doesn't even sign her own name. Note that I dind't post a link to this site on HEr list, and in fact, didn't know she "owned" this list until just now:

From: birds2rescue [mailto:b2r@mail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:47 PM
To: Macaw-1@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Macaw-1] Judith must go



Due to Judith Archer's sour grapes attitude ( regarding a dishonest
rescue transaction years ago )and unwarranted attacks on a rescue
organization she is banned from this list.

List Owner
For the record, I have no idea what "dishonest rescue transaction" I'm supposed to be suffering sour grapes over
since few things are more clear than this: i have never had any dealings with her, ever.

"Conversion" is a legal term for misappropriating someone else's property. It is a civil tort, and
doesn't mean "thest," A common analogy is that you mistakenly take someone else's coat from a claokroom, then keep it as your own.

Over seven thousnd in damages? What a hoot. What a truly and thoroughly dishonest and dishonorable person she is.

I hope anyone and everyone who cares about parrots in general, and Toos in particular, finding caring, loving homes, contributes somethign to the defense fund here, no matter how small an amount. And IU hope everyone sends links to this so they can see this "rescuer" in action.

Again, her primary interest in all this seems to be financial, and control, with the best interest o fthis bird no where to be found.
Posted By: Marie & Peaches

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 09:49 PM

Quote:
One good thing has already come out of this, and that is that Dottie Schirra has, through her own words and actions, now shown herself in public to be exactly what those of us who have been in the rescue world for decades know her to be..someone whose ego overrules anything else, who is perfectly willing to attack others while claiming she is being attacked, and who shrouds all her "rescue" activitues in a cloud of secrecy, including NOT becoming a 501(c)(3), which would require public disclosure of her financial activities.
Are you saying that Dottie Schirra ALREADY has a BAD reputation with other rescues? If so will these rescues state that in court if it goes that far?
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 10:06 PM

Quote:
regarding a dishonest
rescue transaction years ago
Isn't she admitting right here that the rescue transaction was a dishonest one on the part of the rescue?

--------------------------------------------------
ADDED NEW PICTURES, SOME STILL CRUMMY, BUT SOME CLEAR ONES!
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 10:46 PM

Shovelheadedme that last PIC was awesome he is a pretty birdie! (Looks like my Babe-Zee) ahhh and the tearing of court papers.... Iguess he is showing us what he thinks! LOL
Posted By: rbyers

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/21/05 11:04 PM

This morning I attempted to contact this rescue through another board. This is what I wrote:

Hi,

First, I am not attacking you. Second, I am not stupid. I have seen recent pictures of this bird. He is healthy and seems to be very happy and in a home where he trust the people. You are a rescue. You are suppose to be concerned for the birds health and happiness. Why will you not work with these poeple and let them adopt this bird for a reasonable adoption fee? Why are you suing them for pet shop prices? I don't understand your intentions. Ok, lets say you were lied to about the bird. In the same situation, I would have lied too. To have a bird in my home for a year, get attached to it and it get attached to me, only to be jerked out because your foster family did not do the proper adoption work would be devasting. These people have had this bird for a year now with no contact from you guys until they called you them. All of the sudden you are concerned about the bird, but you are only concerned about getting the bird back, or getting $1800.00 for the bird. Your main concern should be the birds welfare. You, as a rescue and adoption organization are suppose to focus on placing these birds in loving, caring, forever homes. This one has found his, why jerk him out of a home where he is happy so that he might go back to feather picking and mutilating himself. Working with these birds as long as you have, you must know how tempermental they are. So, the bird was placed in this home without going through your organization. This family didn't do it, your friend J did it. She is the one that you should be attacking. You should be working with this family to make things right so that the bird can stay with them. He is happy there. By you not doing so, it makes everyone question your real intentions. I really hope that you can find it in your hearts to drop this law suit and let this too stay where he is, in a safe, loving, caring, trusting home.

Robin Byers
North Carolina

I recieved a message back: Yes you are stupid. To think we are demanding they pay $1,800 is
ignorant.

Apparently there is no reasoning with this person. I was then ban from the board so that I could not respond to her email calling me stupid. I was not trying to cause any problems with this rescue, just trying to make them see the point of view that really matters here. It's hopeless. They are apparently determined that they are either taking the bird back or getting the money for it. I'm with everyone else now. I would calculate everything I had involved in the bird for the time he had been with me and I would countersue. Here we all know what the real issue is, the welfare of the bird but else where, only money matters. I will believe this until I'm proved wrong.
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 12:29 AM

I talked with my tax guy who will be researching her FEIN# He was not able to bring up her TAX ID # in the system he uses with a prominent US tax service...........

DOTTIE as we say on the west coast YOUR BUSTED!
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 12:53 AM

You are all legal aides to my lawyers (Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe)! The Too & us appreciates your hard work and as well as our lawyer!
Posted By: hhanse57

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 02:53 AM

You want to get sick??? Go to Petfinders message boards and check the post under rescues. You will throw up.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 04:38 AM

Thanks hhanse. I found it all very interesting. Once you register, you can view all her postings just like here and she has a lot of them under different topics. She seems to mention it anywhere she can.
I am not worried, I know I have not lied about anything. It does tick me off that she thinks I am controlling what everyone on this forum does. Phone calls, emails etc. She likes to say "she had someone", when I did not have anyone do anything.
I am so sorry she is having trouble sleeping at night, but it is not the bird she is worried about, it is conscience.
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 04:43 AM

dottie recieved a phone cal from me regarding this action she is taking against the Allens, telling her that I know alot of people in the entertainment bis. I DO! Alot of animal lovers! I am wanting to make her life hell because she does not care about animals just the $$ and limelight she is getting. I never threatened her what am I supposed to do? fly out to Parma? ewww why would I eave my 3000 sq ft home and job and family for YOU Dottie? You are NOT that important! And I just called you again tonite because your an idiot! My name & number is listed all over the internet in the entertainment agencies and comedy clubs across the so cal area WOOOPEEEE! In fact I am
posting it now: Julie @ xxx-xxx-xxxx I do M.Cing stand up comedy I also have done many bit parts in TV and I do VOICE OVERS Thanks dottie for the NEW exposure!!!! I havent had a chance to use my SAG card in a LONG time!

Edit: I removed the phone number from the above post. If you want someone to contact you you may leave your e-mail address. But please do not leave phone numbers or addresses on the message board. Michael
Posted By: Julz

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 04:49 AM

I am placing this post of another rescue (canine) http://bassethoundrescue.org/ for you to all see a working REAL rescue. Notice the BIG DEALthey web page makes on the successful rescues and adoptions. Notice NOT ONE PERSON sticks out from the other volunteers! See Ms. Schira this is a true rescue and they have a real FEIN # Check it out anyone on this board can see IT IS REAL!!!
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 03:06 PM

Quote:
I hope anyone and everyone who cares about parrots in general, and Toos in particular, finding caring, loving homes, contributes somethign to the defense fund here
I thought she was the plaintiff? <img border="0" alt="[laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laugh[1].gif" />

DEFENSE FUND:

The Allens,
P.O. Box 34216
Parma, Ohio
44134
Posted By: JArcher107@aol.com

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 05:12 PM

By the way, I think wha twould be helpful in affidavits would be input from people..and I asume this list has many..who have formally or informally helped rescue, rehab, and rehome Toos in general, and Umbrellas in particular, with some brief inforamtion on how dificult it can be to find good Too homes (keep in mind this isn't the judge's main interst, so dn't get caught up in this) but MOSTLY....what a "used" Umbrella Cockatoo, especially one that is mutilating/screaming/plucking, is "worth".

In all seriousness..has ANYONE ever adopted out or bought outright a sued Umbie for $1800? I've never seen THAT price even in teh Northeast, in pet stores, for just-weaned, healthy chicks. Legally speaking, this is more of a factor than our concerns for good homes. I'd think it would help for teh Allens to ve able to show that MOST peopel invovled in "rescue" are not selling over-priced birds, but in fact having trouble finding good enough homes to GIVE them to. And note that in this cse, I've not seen any claim from BPP that they spent ANY money on this bird at all, other than NOW when they are apparently more than happy to take donations intended tohelp birds, and help pay for the lawyer's Lexus instad while harassing these peopel so they can take this bird away from a home AGAIN and then sell it.
Posted By: AggieGrace

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 05:40 PM

I've been following this thread for quite a while and would like to offer any help at all. As the owner of a rescued U2, I can most certainly give a statement on the difficulties that these birds can present and how important a happy, healthy, forever home is for them. I would love to help out financially, as well, but am a little strapped for cash right now. Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help the Allens.

My prayers are with you!

Aggie and Tara
AggieGraceLove@yahoo.com
Posted By: Charlie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 05:56 PM

Aggie, (and others) please just use the following format exactly:

GENERAL AFFIDAVIT

State of __________________

County of _________________

Before the undersigned, an officer duly commissioned by
the laws of ____________, on this_____day of _____________,
20____, personally appeared ______________________________
who having been first duly sworn depose and say:
__________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________

Witness:________________ _______________________________

Sworn and subscribed before me this ___day of ___________
A.D. 20__
Posted By: Karen M2

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 06:43 PM

I noticed a trend...

The Allens seem to respect everyone's opinion and avoid name calling.

On the other hand the tone and general actions of the rescue are unprofessional to say the least. She can not state her case or even remove a picture from a website and explain simply that it gave the wrong impression without resorting to name calling.

I had a similar incident once. My neighbors got me a dog from the SPCA which I did not want at the time as my dog had just died. They meant well but the SPCA does not allow you give your adopted pets to others. I kept her (still have her, she is 11) but one day she got out. The neighbor who found her noted the SPCA tag and called them. They refuse to give her me stating there was no proof she had been spade. They even said they would have her spade againg just to make sure. I had had her spade and got the proof. She spent 4 days at the SPCA before they allowed me to adopt her. Therefore, here is a presedence which judges like that even if the initial adoption rules were violated, the current caretaker was allowed to adopt the dog by showing proof that she met all of the adoption requirements.

First, they have to prove that this is the bird that sent to foster home whom gave it to you. If they have no pictures, no banding, etc how can they say it is the same bird unless the foster home states it is? It is their burden, not yours to prove it is their bird. Next they must prove the foster broke the contract and then sue them. Since they willingly went atleast 6 months without seeing the bird, how do they know it is even still alive?

Last, they must prove why you can not adopt a cockatoo. You have been a cockatoo owner for over a year. Which of their criteria do you not meet?

My .02
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 07:01 PM

Thanks AggieGrace for wanting to send an Affidavit to us, but importantly they must be Notarized to be of legal value. All that wish can send us one as well to this address:
John/Hope Allen
p.o.box 34216
Parma ,ohio 44134
We have recieved back (so far) four responses since yesterday from various rescues around the U.S.A stating the market value of a 10 y/o male u2 rescue. These prices range from $180 up to $595 ($595 for a rescue that was given $2100 worth of medical care). We are prepared to offer the avg.of $450 to her attorney. If this fails to remedy the situation then we are left with no other options but to bring this into a more public forum. We have already created in e-mails what the situation is and are waiting to send them to all local t.v. and newspaper investigating teams in the cleveland area. Thanks again everyone. Charlie you must be a retired C.I.A investigator cool .Where do you find these posts. You are for real! Thanks again to all, John
Posted By: Karen M2

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 07:23 PM

In looking objectively at the BPP site, I find it troubling that if they had the experience they claim with large cockatoos that they would willingly allow a foster home to put a bird at "boyfriends's" or other places before taking immediate action. They are at fault for not immediately taking action when the foster home did not produce the birds. Since they had not problem with Jungle Bob's or the boyfriends whom they had not inspected they can not claim they have problem with the Allen's.

In a civil case for damages, the judge looks to see what the plaintive did to cause the damages as well as the defendent. In this case, the plaintive caused, by not immediately following up on the location of birds at least half of the damages. They also agreed that by not having possession did not damage their organization. Therefore, the only damages they can sue for is for the lost of an income from the bird. Since this is a rescue they can only sue for the what the bird cost them which is 2 days of board and expenses of checking on it. Since they directly caused the situation and atleast are responsible for 1/2 the damages, they are entitled to no more than a $50-$100.

My .02

Karen
Posted By: Nikki's Mom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 07:37 PM

My U2 did not come from a rescue but she was 9 yrs old and feather plucked with a hole picked in her chest I gave $800.00 for her and she came with a 3ft x 2ft cage, playstand and traval cage now how outragest does there price sound?
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 07:48 PM

Nikkie"s Mom,
THESE are the type of statements that we need in affidavits we need to take to the hearing. Remember, they do need to be notarized to mean something. Just like JArcher and our attorney said, they jacked the price up to keep it out of small claims, and this will be good proof that they are misusing the justice system. So, ANYBODY who can send this type of valuable information, maybe even possibly with a copy of your own receipt, would help a lot.
You all have no idea how much your support means to us and our Too! Anything you think might be helpful, send it our way!
Posted By: Nikki's Mom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 07:52 PM

Oh one more thing the bird looks beautiful I wish my Nikkie looked that good she was a pluck for yrs still love her and would fight anyone that tryed to take her away you are alway on my mind best of luck
Posted By: Ozbird

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 07:54 PM

Hi, I am also new to this board. Heard about the problems with your Too and the BPP.
I live in Ohio, Medina county. I also contacted Fran about an adoption. We sent a few e-mails back and forth, but I never followed through on getting a bird from them.
I wish I could help. If theres anything I can do from Medina, let me know.
We have a re-homed U2 who was a plucker mutilator.
She is doing much better now, we have had her for 4 months.
These people also hav an ad in the Tradin' Times classified newspaper for birdcages for sale. I thought, all those donations supposed to be going to birds who need them, and they are selling them. I know they can use the money for the birds too, but?
I e-mailed the ad for the cages, I need a larger cage for our U2. She e-mailed me back with a picture of a used cage and a price of 250$. Nice cage, but not much bigger than what I have. big price.

Hope things work out for you, and let me know what I can do.

Joyce
Posted By: Lrex

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 08:22 PM

Hi there Hope and John:
Please ascertain with your lawyer whether or not Affidavits from Canada are of any value to your case. If they are I will provide one and see about getting you some others as well. I just happen to have access to "free" lawyers by the truckload - at work wink
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 09:54 PM

Any and all affidavits are welcome, especially if it is regards to the consequences of a cockatoo being rehomed for no good reason. Doesn't matter where your from.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/22/05 11:59 PM

HomeTweet, yes...we are using caution. I don't think anyone blames us for that. It is just because you became a member the same time this rescue did and what happened on the yahoo forum. Pretty coincendental Like we said, we don't know who is who, but I know the ones that have been members longer then Feb. are pretty safe.
Yes, this letter seems great. And I thank you for taking the time to write it out here.

Hope
Posted By: JArcher107@aol.com

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 12:24 AM

Hope, would you please do me a favor and drop me a private email? Thanks!

in the meantime, one note on Affidavits....it's best to be short and to teh point and again..it's not really likely the judge will spend alot of time learning about Cockatoo needs, and is more liekly to focus on issues of what happenes when a bird is, well,. let's be honest here, SOLD...and then cahnges homes again and again. But I think Hope's lawyer woudl probably suggest that you introduce yourself, give a brief idea of your background, and then get to the point.

FWIW..and I'd say it is worth nothing..my typing is notoriously awful, and since I am new to this forum, I have yet to figure out how to cut and paste, or how to quote what I am responding to.
Posted By: angie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 03:48 AM

I think that it is in the best interest of the Allens to be very cautious regarding anyone that appears to be a new member giving advice....I am not slamming anyone, but this is the internet and deception is common...
I am saddend that this is still going on and that they still want this cockatoo returned to them. There are really some heartless people in this world. Please remember that this is not about personal feelings, it is not about who is what and who is wrong and right, it is about a beautiful animal that is in a happy home. I sit here typing this with Angel on my shoulder, my U2, and I know that I would be devestated if I lost her.....
God be with you, he watches over his own.
Angie
Posted By: Chacoosmom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 04:12 AM

Hope. You can email me any time. I support you in your fight to keep your bird in your home. This is very poor example of how a rescue should act.

Kermit:

I personally know Judith and know she has 31 birds and know she is an attorny. Perhaps you did not find her listed because she is retired so she could take care of her birds. There are others who can tell you the same thing.
Posted By: Kermit

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 04:17 AM

Thank you for answering my question chacoosmom.
There is a Judith Archer who runs a rescue in S. Carolina also, so I wasn't sure.
Posted By: Chacoosmom

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 05:23 AM

It is one in the same. Judith is one of those self supported small rescues who only keep the birds that need her the most. Others are found homes, usually without even coming to her home.

She is what a rescue should be, low key and doing what is BEST for the bird, not trying to collect birds.
Posted By: JArcher107@aol.com

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 05:39 AM

Jerry, I have yet to figure out how to cut and paste here, but I hope you do not shut down this thread beause some new and anonymouse poster wants to divert attention to me. I see Bonnie has laready answered qestions here, but I'll note that on teh few ocassionals someone has challngged my actually being alawyer, I always ask one simple question" :Who in their right mind, if they wanted to pretend to be what they were not, would pick being a LAWYER anyway?"

wink

Now..back to the actual topic at hand, which I hope can serve as a warnign to folks about how important it can be to know who you are dealign with when "adopting" from a "rescue."

Just a couple quick Affidavit comments...real life interrupted me before. YOu want to keep it short, keep it on point, and keep it based on facts that YOU know..Ie, "I adopted an Umbrella Cockatoo in excellent health last year from ABC Rescued Parrot in New Work, New York. The bird came with a complete vet exam, and a large new cage. The adoption fee was $500 for everything." Of course, if you'ce adopted out three Umbrellas this year instead, just explain that briefly, with the fees.

The judge doesn't want to hear your take on "his" (or"her") case. So don't bother going there. Just stick to facts regarding fees, and/or simple statements about the importance of an adopted bird being allowed to stay in a good home it has known for a year.

Okay..I'm tossing my lawyer hat back in a corner for now. I do hope this thread is not allowed to be hijacked by anonymous names with obvious agendas. It raises serious and important questions and issues for anyone who cares about parrots in general, and cockatoos in particular.

judith
Posted By: Bear44847

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 06:52 AM

Geez having a hard time figuring this forum out.

Yes I am a new member and not associated with any rescues. However I do love animals.

The funny thing is I was in petfinder and came across Dottie's post and in that post it was attacking this forum.

So, being me *naturally nosy and curious* I had to come here and find out what was posted here.

Funny Dottie attacks you Hope but I dont see you attacking her at all.

That tells me the true story here.

Just wanted to say that and to say good luck.

I dont own any birds but this story does pull at my heartstrings.
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 08:06 AM

This is going to be our last post until something new develops. I totally agree with Jerry, this looks like it is going to get out of hand with all the new people coming in hearing our story from all over the internet. The truth is, this is controlling our lives at the moment and nothing is going to really happen until we go to court. We have found a tremendous amount of support from all of you, as well as a lot of knowledge! We are as prepared as we can be, thanks to all of you. We welcome any letters, you all know the mailing address and our email address can be found on our homepage link. But be assured that if anything happens you will know!
Posted By: Rhonda

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 09:40 AM

Hey Hope,

I know that I'm listed as a "new member" but I'm honestly an old member who rejoined the board. Jerry, Tammy, & Lynne can vouch for the fact that I've been around awhile.

I have a rescued GSC2 that I paid a ransom for, If it helps to have statements with costs for other types of toos, I'm happy to provide you with one.

Also, I know your vet doesn't want to "be in the middle" but you are able to get all of your (I repeat YOUR) birds Vet Records from the time you first got him. That should show that you've been diligent with his care and also that he was plucking at first, but has stopped under your love and care.

I have had my run of legal battles for custody of my daughter and the letters they are writing are laughable, but you must remember to deny their claims in the same forum. If they write you a letter claiming something and you do not write back denying the validity of their statement, you can believe you will see that letter again in court as proof of their claims. (At least here in Sunny Tornado Alley California)

Advice to keep the statements short and to the point are right on the money. If they're too long, they won't even be read.

And... anyone with typing issues who isn't as lazy as I am wink can type out their post in Word or something similar, spell check, then cut and paste back here... Me... I just take my chances. laugh

Best Wishes...

Rhonda
Posted By: Ohio Dog Rescuer

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 10:09 AM

Let me say that I found this thread in the first place by following a link in the Petfinder message boards. I am a dog rescuer in Ohio and am a registered rescue through Petfinder. Not that that means anything......just trying to let you all know why there might be many new posters. The rescue here is trying to rally other rescuers on her side by posting on the Petfinder message boards.

Last year we had an adopter stop payment on their check. We of course demanded the dog back. The "adopter" refused.

I called the police and was told that there was nothing they could do. I called the procecutor and was told that if the amount was under a certain amount they would likely do nothing, but I could sue in small claims/civil court.

I was told that it was doubtful that I would ever get the dog back. As far as the courts were concerned, he was property. I could sue for my money, but not the dog. Had they stolen him outright that might have been different, but that was not my situation.

I was advised by someone in the procecuters office that I was allowed by law to sue for replacement value of the dog. Even though he only paid $150 for the adoption fee, that does not mean that the dog was only WORTH $150. The idea was to file for a higher amount and hope they would be willing to return the dog to us in exchange for us dropping the case(which we would have won). In order to do this I had to find proof that to replace the dog it would cost me such and such amount of money(that would be easy). We ended up not going to court because this was in a different city from where we are based and we simply did not have the funding to persue it. We verified with their vet that the dog was being cared for and prayed that we were doing the right thing.

I don't know much about the cost of birds, but this "rescue" would have to establish a monitary value on the bird and have to prove it was an average going price for this breed if purchased from a breeder or pet store. She would have to establish the fact that she indeed owned the bird. If she has signed papers from the former owner stating that they released the bird over to them, then she could prove that she had A bird of this breed. That doesn't mean she could prove the bird YOU have is that same bird.......except for all of these posts.

Given all of the court shows I have watched I don't believe that they can sue you for return of the bird or money to replace. After all........you did not take this bird from them. You were given this bird by another party who claims to have ownership of them.

Their beef is with the foster who they entrusted the bird to. If the foster can't prove she paid for the bird, then it would be her responsibility to reimburse the rescue for the amount of replacement value of the bird. If she can, then the case is over and would be dismissed. Either way, I don't see how they have any legal ground to sue YOU. I am sure the lawyer posting may know better than me. Courts do not look at animals as a life......it is a piece of property. If this were a dresser and you had it stored at someone's home and they gave it away you don't sue the person who got the dresser. You sue the person who gave it away. It is sad, but that is how it works. You did not walk into this woman's home and steal her bird. She has no vested interest in the bird. She isn't even emotionally attached to him so she is not out any pain and suffering. She gave him to the foster after two days and didn't look back.

The rescue would have to prove that they have been missing this bird from the beginning and have been actively trying to find it. They have no police report stating the bird is missing. They have no vet receipts to show they have been caring for this bird while it was in the care of their foster. I doubt they have receipts to show they have provided food for this bird since the foster supposedly paid for the birds. If the foster was required to pay for all vetting and or food, toys, etc for this bird, then how does the rescue in question have any rights to this bird anyway? Do they require fosters to foot the bill and then they keep the adoption fee? It sounds to me like they didn't care where this bird was until they found out it got adopted out and they missed out on an incoming adoption fee.

If there was a genuine concern for the health and safety of the bird, then the Humane Society would have been called in on behalf of the bird. They have not been contacted. If I adopted out an animal to a home that I found to be mistreating that animal I would do whatever it took to get that animal out of there. Why then has the Humane Society not been contacted to check on the current welfare of this bird? I should think that would be my very first step. If they went in and found the bird was being abused or neglected they would immediately remove the bird from the home. It is almost sure that they would then turn the bird over to a bird sanctuary.......who do you think they would call? That would be a simple way to get around any court issues if they truly thought this bird was in danger. Even if they didn't eventually end up getting this bird back they would still have succeeded in getting it out of this so called dangerous environment.

The amount they are suing for is a scare tactic to try and get you to turn the bird over to them. There is absolutely no way they will get that amount of money even if they would win because they would have to prove that the bird was worth that much money, and by the posts on here they do not cost that much. She is not out any income due to this bird being given away so she can't claim that. If she was going to claim that by this bird being given away she lost money on breeding then they will want to know why she gave the bird away to a foster home after two days and never even asked for it back. She can't get money for emotional suffering because she couldn't possibly love or have any affection for a bird she barely met. If she is suing for lawyer fees, she can't do that. They will not award her money to cover her attorney. If she wins she will get court costs. The courts do not allow you to recoup your fees for the lawyer.

Make copies or get a record from your vet for every dime you have spent on this bird. If you have receipts for your cage and supplies, then make copies of them. Take photographs of this bird with you and your husband, his cage, his home, before and after pics of his feathers if you have any before.
Get a statement from the foster and have a notory stamp it or better yet.......take her with you to court. You would also do well to take in the original owner of the bird. They could testify to the health and temperament of this bird when she turned him in to the rescue in the first place. They could also testify that she released the birds to rescue and that the rescue paid NOTHING for or toward the care of this bird. The only claim she has to this bird is the release from the original owner. Other than that, she doesn't so much have a seed pod to connect her physically to this poor bird. If the rescue didn't pay for this bird or have any monies into the care of this bird, then how do they think they have a right to reimbursement of money they never put out?
Posted By: kylie

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 01:15 PM

Good luck. I hope everything goes well for you. I can't imagine what your going through. Everyone will have their fingers crossed for you and thoughts with you. Best of luck!
Posted By: Marie & Peaches

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 05:23 PM

All the best. You're in my thoughts and prayers for a good outcome.
Posted By: lroe

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 07:11 PM

My thoughts and prayers are with you...keep us posted on what is going on...just love on your baby because it will come out to your good in the end...Linda
Posted By: shovelheadme

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/23/05 11:49 PM

Well, we have not heard from BPP's (Doddy's) Attorney, but we did however read a post this afternoon that she had left on her petfinders thread the previous evening (over 8 hours after speaking w/her attorney) that she will be going to court. We tried to end this peacefully by offering her $450.00 to minimize the consequences for ALL PARTIES INVOLVED, MOST IMPORTANTLY OUR TOO! She has not ONCE offered us a chance TO ADOPT THIS TOO, ALTHOUGH HE HAS BEEN WITH OUR FAMILY FOR 11 MONTHS! SHE HAS NOT ONCE ASKED TO COME VISIT OUR TOO IN OUR HOME! SHE HAS ONLY MADE DEMANDS THAT HE RETURNED, NO MATTER WHAT CONSEQUENCES IT WILL HAVE ON HIS WELL BEING!
Now is the time for all those who wish to send a brief letter to the links below (news investigations) and let them know about BPP Rescue please ask friends to ask friends to do as well. The more mails they get the better. (WORLDWIDE)!!! We want to expose the actions of this so called rescue...Sorry if we may be sounding vindictive but angry WE WILL NOT BE INTIMIDATED! angry

fox8iteam@fox8cleveland.com fox8iteam@fox8cleveland.com
carlmonday@wkyc.com
pohlman@newsnet5.com
19tips@woio.com
43tips@wuab.com

Please include our email address hope.a@sbcglobal.net in your emails so they know who to contact. I will then give them my phone number. We have already sent emails to all the addresses we gave you.

I did not want it to come to this. But after reading that Dottie is posting that our Too is mutilating and feather plucking, I think it is time that we get him on the news to prove how wonderful and happy he is. There is some reason why this rescue wants to get these birds back. No rescue I have talked to would do such a thing, without coming to our home first. I am tired of her telling people I was looking to dump the bird, like he is a piece of garbage.

Thank you to all for your OVERWHELMING SUPPORT you all know who you are.
Posted By: Jerry

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/24/05 03:22 AM

I dont normally weigh-in on these matters because I dont know either party involved. But here's what I do know:

1..Keeping a large cockatoo is a VERY difficult thing. They are passed from home to home more often than any other parrot.

2..If a VERY difficult bird is in a loving home, why remove it? Is it about rescue... or money... or ego?

3..The rescue involved has had the privilege of appearing on the Mytoos rescue page for some time now. I try to be very careful about what rescues appear there. I visited this rescues website tonight, and there was NO mention of Mytoos.com on their links page. However, there are links to those who breed birds in one form or another, along with the standard rescue links. I find it insulting that the number one website in the world for cockatoos (Mytoos) is not even worthy of mention on that rescues site. I have removed their link from Mytoos.com.

4.. This action is not "taking sides" in the matter of this thread, it's simply my personal feelings about the rescue in question.

5..This topic is now closed. I hope this problem will be worked out for the birds sake, and nobody else's.
Posted By: Jerry

Re: Being sued for my Too! Help! - 02/25/05 01:35 PM

ONE LAST NOTE:

You may notice some posts missing. It seems someone from another bird site came in here under a false name (Kermit) and attempted to hijack the thread. Many of Kermits posts (and responses) have been removed to clarify the topic.
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