((SIGH)) Once again, assumptions are made by one member that another is ignorant because they do not share the same opinions as they do. I have had birds that are flighted, and have allowed on brief occasions Darwin to be flighted. But in very protected circumstances, and very practiced ones. Inside, to say the least. With all dangerous surroundings minimized, to say with certainty. And yes, I do know that a frightened bird, clipped correctly, or fully flighted, can be a disaster in the waiting, or in the unexpected circumstance. We can only try to anticipate the things that CAN go wrong, and sometimes do in spite of our best efforts and good intentions. Such is life! so let us share our experience and our opinions without belittling those of others, especially when the experience of the other is not known to you.
Posts: 86 | Registered: Jan 2007
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You want ALL contigencies to be guarded against. Should I write on how those contigencies you brought up be avoided, I am sure you will dream up of even more. If you believe the safest way is to clip the wings and stay at home with your bird, you are entirely at liberty to do so. But is your home earthquake proof? Have you thought of possibility of a comet hitting your house ?
Then let me go riding on my bike with Tinkerbell. I decline to buy an armoured Humvee prior to taking Tink out. Besides, an IED can take out an Humvee. I cannot guard against that contigency either.
Above is for you too and not just for Charlie.
What you advocate about clipping wings as long as you keep a close eye is dangerous. I am against that idea and not you.
Let me quote into here
" lost cockatiel 'Tory' Lost cockatiel. Grey/yellowish pearl. Banded 03. ay come to 'Tory Bird'. Poor flier due to wing clipping. Email: email@example.com. White Lake, MI.
Our bird was lost on 11-23-03 in the area of St. Petersburg, Fl. In the region of OLD NORTHEAST. We are heart broken over it, any info that is given will be greatly helpful, wings are clipped and can't fly There is a reward out for the return of the bird , under one year old. Email: firstname.lastname@example.org. St Petersburg, FL.
Blue & Gold Macaw, Lost in Pembroke Pines, Fl Distinctive Forth black Line Under Eyes. Still Being Handfed. Wings Were Clipped First two Wing feathers Still On. Lost On Sept. 21. Reward If Found. Email: email@example.com. Pembroke Pines, FL.
Enough? I can quote even more appeals for help from those who thought clipping wings will be 'safe'.
Or I should not spoil your current illusion that clipping of wings will be enough.
Do you have any idea how much better parrots can see and hear as against humans? What you think is safe is safe only from your context and that may not be the case. And should the parrot spook, you have not seen the power. That power is just unbelievable!
And not just the power, their takeoff speed can be so fast too. It is unlikely the speed of your reaction (or anyone for that matter) can do anything. You think keeping a close eye is enough to ward off Murphy's Law?
Of course, I could be wrong.
Take what I know and written as something you can disregard if you so wish. Such as the summary of how I got into this and the training that was done and how you can protect yourself in the URL below.
Ok, I have to be pro on the flight suit issue...
Henrietta sometimed DEMANDS car rides. She sees the keys, or hears them jingle and it's screamfest 2007 untill she gets her way.I've tried keeping her in a small dog kennel for the rides, but good luck keeping her in it. Well, poop doesnt exactly do my car interior any good. Personally, I dont care, but I car pool, and nobody else wants to sit in poop.
Also, when I bring henrietta to my parent's or other's places for holidays, poop was always an issue. I would clean it as much as i could but she always manages to sneak one or two past me
As far as rash and demeaning.... henrietta sometimes isnt in the mood to wear it, so i listen to her and she doesnt have to wear it... and most of the time she doesnt care, she's just glad to be able to stomp around the table or car at her leasure. And I've never ever had a problem with rashes. If you put the bird in the suit 24/7 maybe a problem would occur, but for occasional car rides and to be able to have her at my moms for christmas dinner, it's worth every penny plus some. Just remember to change the pads often.
Posts: 55 | Registered: Sep 2006
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I accept the probability of comet hitting your house is very slim. Even much more slim than probability of disaster falling on car that I drive or a motorbike that I ride.
Feel free to view on what I do as on the lunatic fringe.
You ever seen sky divers or mountain bike rally where they ride down mountains like suicidal maniacs? And low! There are fatalities even, but not as often as you imagine. If that person knows clearly the dangers and took the trouble to train himself thoroughly as if their lives depend on it.
So if you like to have a flighted bird out with you from dawn to dusk, trekking and biking in the forests and mountains of Taiwan or elsewhere, do try to know all you can, think deeply and decide.
Taking Tinkerbell riding bike is dangerous and I discourage ALL from such madness, unless you are a very good and skillful rider and made timid by years as well.
Thank you, ShanLung, for making this concession. You are entirely correct that some people have the discipline, time, motivation and dedication to make these things work. You are one of them. There are other respected free-fliers on the web. Much like the probability of disaster, so are the chances that any one individual has the above characteristics in quantities sufficient to succeed. These are rare people. I'm sure you share my concern in this respect.
Posts: 4330 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I did not take contigency against comet hitting me as that will be an amazing stroke of luck for me. Those on the other side of the world like you will be the unlucky folks to deal with the aftermath.
But I did have contigency in place for earthquake when in Taiwan. Enough earthquakes occured there to have a permanet daily column in newspaper to report where that may occur. Some mosquito mesh screen were removed with only glass window. I reckoned the glass will shatter allowing Tink to fly out of the collapsing apartment even if I go down with the rubble.
I honestly have nothing against the way people chose to keep their flock. No one should allow others to pressure them one way or other into any prescribed way. They and only they alone must decide.
But they should know as much as they can , not relying on the word of anyone alone, less of all, not from me.
But to take proclamations that clipping of wings will meant bird will be safe is so unsafe that that is frightening to me.
I received this a few days back on another clipped bird.
My daughter and I are so sad because my husband went outside on Saturday Feb. 24th at 3 o'clock and he had our little Mustached Parakeet. It's a female, and she was scared about the noise that my husband did with the trashcan, so she flew away.
We try to find her, we gave to the people some flyers and we put some of them on the mail boxes, we look around our home where we thought that she can stay but anything happened. Our Parakeet Vet told us that she can't fly long distances because she has just 3 feathers on each side, she is missing 4 on each side.
She was living inside the house in a warm weather and now outside is cold, the Vet thinks that she can survive outside but I don't know what we can do. We are missing her a lot. Her head is light gray, she has salmon-colored half breast, some of her tail feathers are turquoise, and some yellow on her wing feathers. We are living in Gilbert, Arizona.
ShanLung I am in amazement over the pictures of Tinkerbell, it is a real site to see. The ultimate for all our birds would be to see them fly as they were meant to do. The wing clipping has been a controversial subject for as long as I can remember, and I am not going to take a stand here pro or con as to how each individual choses whats best for their bird and their peace of mind. I have my convictions, based strictly on experiences that will forever be with me. I am not going to critize anyone here for their decisions to clip or not to clip, its a subject that will never be agreed upon.What has work so beautifully for you is the exception at best for most, and I guess I myself would not be comfortable with it. I will say that the bond, pride and obvious love you have for Tinkerbell is evident. Please keep sharing your pictures and adventures, they are a sight to see.
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Yes, thank you Charlie for posting the article. I came across that information before we adopted Kiwi. Having no concept of what it would be like to live with a parrot, flight was a big question as were many other topics. Again I am such a newbie, I can only use judgment that involves our own experiences with one particular bird I had no experience with birds except for one duck and assorted chickens. That is why this site is so valuable. The sharing of opinion either pro or con on any subject regarding cockatoos is a joy.
Kiwi was flighted when I got her but had never flown. I was going to keep her flighted until I took her outside one day, firmly griped in my hand. She relaxed her feet, slipped my grip and ended up on the carport roof. Not good. She came back to me, terrified, and shaking. The decision was made. A flight harness, which chafed her, miserably, was used and the vet gave a moderate wing clip. As spring and summer progressed, and her lifestyle changed, I discovered the flight suit, and with her vet's advice, we had her wings trimmed more severely. Her flight feathers are back, and this winter we are working on flying and coming on cue. We will relook at wing clipping this summer again and choose appropriately. Her safety is a prime issue.
We choose to not confine her to just our home, a special room, or a cage. Unfortunately, we must go back and forth in the summer, use the boat, travel, volunteer, etc. (ahh, the life of a retiree). This was our life style before Kiwi. She has adapted well to it and the flight suit has been an important tool. It keeps any feces from contaminating others and us. Her vet feels this is important when a bird is in public. He also stressed that all birds outside be tethered, or safely caged. By the way, her vet used to be head of avian sciences at Michigan State University, and is an exotic species vet. We are so fortunate to have him.
A perfect world would have me exploring the flora and fauna of the rainforests of Eastern Indonesia and enjoying the umbrella cockatoo in the wild. That is not the reality. The fact is humanity is now Kiwi's flock, and I feel my responsibility is to observe her, teach her, learn from her, integrate her, relate to her, and make her existence in this human flock as endurable, safe, healthy and positive for her as possible. Thank you everyone for helping me in this. Her existence was already screwed by human intervention. It is not a reality for this particular animal to be returned to a wild state. This is why everyone's input on assorted and various circumstances is of such value.
Regarding flight suits: I am thankful I found this product. We call it her dress. It helps acceptance in public. She considers all humans her flock. She meets many many people (probably in the hundreds) per week. Kiwi is a personal ambassador for NOT owning a parrot. We have educated hundreds of people about parrots, their plight, that I am Kiwi's 3rd home in her first year of life, the immense amount of time and money it takes to properly care for her, and how she is only one or two generations removed from being a wild animal. The bow and the flight suit are part of my spiel the reasons for them are explained. I can scarcely get anything done in the library because of the attention she draws and the time I spend, talking to and educating people. The library staff loves having her come in. I try to tie talking about her and parrots, especially with children, to the joy of reading.
The Flight suit panty liner option makes it a whiz to change the bird every hour or two. She only wears it when appropriate, not all day long. I have not noticed sweating etc. I have never had feces left on the feathers in the vent area. If you didn't change it often enough, I think it could happen. Believe me, she can remove the flight suit in an instant. She steps into it willingly, shows me her wing on request so I can slip the suit straps over. She knows it means bye bye. It's softer and more comfortable than a harness.
She is almost potty trained. She is that way naturally, preferring one spot to defecate either in her cages or when out of them. She will "potty" on command. We were cautioned against pushing this behavior. Should you not be there to give a command, the bird might hold off defecating and compromise kidney and liver function.
Sorry about demeaning her with a bow, but purely by accident, it's an object she seems to like. She could slip it off with her foot immediately and destroy or discard it if she didn't want it. Doesn't seem to affect the crest feathers either. Perhaps it is security for her. Perhaps she feels she is sheltered by it, sort of like being underneath a familiar object. I know she can see it there.
Re: Car travel, the bird isn't loose. That only happened once. We tried a carrier with a perch, secured by a seat belt. We had a mild sudden stop, and she didn't realize it and couldn't react quickly enough and slammed off the perch into the front of the carrier. Fortunately no injury. She has to travel, so I was forced to come up with a different method. We have a large car. I have one of those small perches on a stand that is lain down, secured with the middle seat belt. Her leash fastens in the back of the flight suit, and is then tied to the perch and keeps her from pitching forward, backward, sideways etc. She has a foot toy to play with while in transit. I relayed my concerns to the vet. The advice given me was most comforting. Allowing Kiwi as much life experience as possible is a life well lived. Do not suffer from guilt and self-recrimination should something happen. Janie
Posts: 161 | Registered: Feb 2007
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He he, I am pretty good at that! Yes, CPQ is linked, as well as LIPS (Long Island Parrot Society) and CKC Birds which is a breeder, albeit one that has had second thoughts after many years. I wish CPQ would become anti-breeder; as much as I think LIPS wants to do the right thing, they still discuss and link to breeders. The fact is, the New York Bird Club (MBC) is also linked, as is Mytoos. I think the members are just being conscientious to a fault and that is to be expected and even encouraged. Project Bird Watch is a valuable service to Indonesian cockatoos.
I am a member of MBC. I will ask Admin, for clarification but I hope it is just overzealous members.
EDIT: I do know that MBC does not advocate wing clipping!
Posts: 4330 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I used to be a magic blonde! Look at the "Resources" page. Technically, it is an illegal site but Stewart Metz and many of his minions are Mytoos members and their top priority is to earn money to further their rehabilitation and release of cockatoos back into their native Indonesia. Money is money for the reclamation of indigenous cockatoos.
I have e-mailed Anna but the fact is, this is a ticklish area and I think her members are on the ball; links on Mytoos are rarely questioned. Do you get my drift? I will post any feedback.
"think LIPS wants to do the right thing, they still discuss and link to breeders."
They do more than link and discuss; they SELL and promote birds at their events.
I think links are important, since they say something about the organization. Since it is late - almost 2 am and am tired will try to go into this in more depth at another time, but I think links say alot. I will remove the posting on our board if you wish, no problem. Have not had a chance to look at it since I have been out most of the day. But wanted to address this right away, since I think it is an important issue and should be discussed if not resolved. I try not to post any org. with breeding links.
If we really want to end, or try to curb, the problem of captive breeding, I think it should be dealt with aggressively. I know some people feel they don't want to jeopardize their relationship with a particular org., but now is not the time for feelings. We must do the right thing by these parrots.
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jan 2006
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I do not take any particular stand either even if I have a slant towards flighted birds.
I just want people to be very aware that clipping of wings do not mean that your birds are then safe from flying away. That point is made so much better by Pamela Clark.
I do not pressure for clipping or against clipping here or in other forums. I believe people have the right to make their choice due to circumstances that only they can know and can handle.
Of course, if they decide to have flighted parrots, then hopefully , Tinkerbell's webpage be of some help to them in that path.
And even before that, all are welcome to Tink page where they can see how life can be like with a flighted parrot. I do not do rockclimbing or sky diving or mountainbiking down mountains. But I enjoy watching and seeing others do that, thinking that maybe if my circumstances change some day, I might be able to do what I can only watch now.
Just like you that perhaps one day in future, you will do what I did and even more. And with even more spectacular photos of your own with your bird.
Shanlung Again, I am in amazement over watching Tinkerbell, and maybe someday we can all just be sitting back in awe watching these magnificant birds flying free as they were meant to. Tinkerbell has such a sparkle in her eye, greatly saddens me what us humans have done to them. Keep sharing those great pictures, I love seeing them.
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Thanks Charlie for the links, and thank you and all those who make this site possible. I had encountered some of the information previously, but picked up some great new information. One reason I support libraries to the degree I do. Information. I am still distressed that there is so little information on the actual foods cockatoos eat in the wild. I wish I could give kiwi a rainforest.
Posts: 161 | Registered: Feb 2007
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The way I can unerringly head into spectacular and frightening pitfalls that I then clawed my way out of! And then found strange new path by experimenting with this and that by sheer necessity. Such as how I stumbled on this, read http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/harness1.html
The person you really want to use as role model is this incredible guy I met , an oil tea grower and weekend tourist bus driver in the remote hamlet of Tsaoling. He taught me so much just by been there. Even if you do not read anything else from Tinkerbell Part 1 , you should read my encounters with the Birdwhisperer of Tsaoling
The letters on that bird whisperer of Tsaoling are below in chronological order. They are all extracted from Part 1 - Early Period of Tinkerbell.
The visits covered a period of time as can be seen from the date of the letters. You can see in between the 2nd and 3rd visits the additions to the birds of that bird whisperer.
He, that bird whisperer of Tsaoling, is the man that inspired me the most. He is the guy that I had and did see again and reported both in Tinkerbell Revisited and in Tinkerbell Interlude.
Looks like your Kiwi also touched your heart in places in you never expected or be prepared to.
Your choice to use that flight suit even though you know she can take that off in an instant.
At the beginning, I tied what I called 'sacrificial ribbons' and stuff to Tinkerbell harness. She was so adapt to unravelling knots that I deliberately added more stuff to divert her from undoing critical knots until I found what really worked.
Nothing but nothing can be more comfortable than Tinkerbell harness. Thats made from the very soft lanyard used to hang mobile phones around the neck.
The weight of Tink harness is about 3 (yes, three) grams. You need a jewelry scale to register that weight. Those harness commercially sold can be weighed on bathroom scale. Made strong enough to hold rhinocerous and stiff so your *** will fight you against wearing that or do their best to bite that off.
Will people hang their mobile phones from lanyard made from those materialaround their neck ? Yet they will be prepared to try to force that on their parrots/2s. And wail away that their parrots/2s refused!
Why not they listen to them? Instead of being I your Master, and you my cute pet to obey me only.
In this bundled series of letters, I was talking about what I termed as the gyrodrop. That was in the context of the mechanics of bird flights as to how they fly downwards. You can gauge how much I know about the difficulties of birds flying downwards. Feel free to dispute with me on what I wrote, if you have some such experiences.
About the end of that article, I suggest the best flight angle for you to induce your clipped or unclipped bird to fly back to you. You never know one day you might need to use this.
Thank you Shanlung for sharing your and Tink's lives. Your corner of the world is lovely. I read all you said about the "Bird Whisperer". You are indeed honored to know him. Kiwi has at last flown to me upon my invitation. I do this in the safe confines of my green house and home. I want her to know this skill should we ever have the unfortunate circumstances she needs it. I am using voice combined with hand commands with her. She knows, No, good girl, yes, eat, bad, owie, step up, step down, dress, mouth, foot, wing, hair, tummy bye bye, cage house, lake house, book house (library) and is learning come and fly. I have recently noticed her using the top of her beak to tap my hand, arm or cheek to show either impatience or concern. I am not sure at this point which, but she is incorporating this behavior more and more.
I am so ill equipped to be this creatures mentor in this human flock. She needs to learn so much. I try to observe what she is telling me. Every day is a learning experience. My challenge is to remain aware of what I must do to make Kiwi's learning condusive to her healthy happy future.
I am honored to have made your acquaintence. Thank you mytoos. Janie
Posts: 161 | Registered: Feb 2007
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That flight of Kiwi to you marked the beginning of a new relationship as you realised.
I understand new things can be frightening as much as it can be exciting. Look on her as the friend that she is. Be very aware of all nuances of Kiwi that only you can know. Remember that you are her equal and rules of friendship must apply. No pussyfooting with her.
Part 2, Tinkerbell Legacy is written for you. Please find the time to read and use any or all of that as you find applicable to you.
Please read Part 1 Early Period "Parrot on shoulder - Being Gentle" and work that cue into her. For a bird that can fly onto your shoulder, this is very important.
Do not hesitate in asking me for help, either here or directly to me.